Zetec turbo engine machining -questions!!
13-11-2012, 10:16 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
Zetec turbo engine machining -questions!!
All right chaps.
Got my 2 litre silvertop in the machine shop at the minute as some of you will know!.
They are reboring it to 86mm to take some forged pistons and its got forged conrods to go in.
I'm just thinking while its in there what else should I get them to do? I am sorting the port and polish on the cylinder head myself I think but got a few questions and hoping some of you knowledgeable folk can help me out
Head -
What cams are good for turbo, approx 400-430hp is what the engine will be making. I dont mean custom grind cams or piper ones really, Im pretty sure Ive heard of cams from different zetec engines being used to good effect for turbos?
Is it worth getting them to machine it for M12 studs and nuts for the cylinder head? what bolts and nuts would be up the job if so? Im thinking ARPs would be stronger than some stock hi tensile M12s
block - where do I get them to put the oil return and breather?
Oil return - does it need to go front of engine, in the sump ,. I was thinking AN -10
and for the breather, the back of the sump AN -12
Last one, do I need to fit ARP main bolts or are the stock ones up to the job? Ive not found anyone having issues with the stock ones so Im thinking this is a cost I dont need!
thanks
Got my 2 litre silvertop in the machine shop at the minute as some of you will know!.
They are reboring it to 86mm to take some forged pistons and its got forged conrods to go in.
I'm just thinking while its in there what else should I get them to do? I am sorting the port and polish on the cylinder head myself I think but got a few questions and hoping some of you knowledgeable folk can help me out
Head -
What cams are good for turbo, approx 400-430hp is what the engine will be making. I dont mean custom grind cams or piper ones really, Im pretty sure Ive heard of cams from different zetec engines being used to good effect for turbos?
Is it worth getting them to machine it for M12 studs and nuts for the cylinder head? what bolts and nuts would be up the job if so? Im thinking ARPs would be stronger than some stock hi tensile M12s
block - where do I get them to put the oil return and breather?
Oil return - does it need to go front of engine, in the sump ,. I was thinking AN -10
and for the breather, the back of the sump AN -12
Last one, do I need to fit ARP main bolts or are the stock ones up to the job? Ive not found anyone having issues with the stock ones so Im thinking this is a cost I dont need!
thanks
13-11-2012, 10:37 PM
#2
There's a lot of talk about using 105 / 115 PS cams but hard pushed to find many who have done it in practice for some reason.
Area 6 / Ian Howell is maybe your best bet for cams. Avoid Cat Cams.
Worth getting the CVH 1.6 water pump tapped to the zetec head also.
I did: turbo return front of sump, breather pot return rear of sump, crank case breather tapped rear of block and used a CFM breather trap for the original front. 19mm hose tail for the front turbo and crank case breather, iirc a 5/8 for the breather pot return.
Buy your hose tails from hydraulics places as there only about Ł1.50 each as apposed to Ł10+ for a pair on ebay
Area 6 / Ian Howell is maybe your best bet for cams. Avoid Cat Cams.
Worth getting the CVH 1.6 water pump tapped to the zetec head also.
I did: turbo return front of sump, breather pot return rear of sump, crank case breather tapped rear of block and used a CFM breather trap for the original front. 19mm hose tail for the front turbo and crank case breather, iirc a 5/8 for the breather pot return.
Buy your hose tails from hydraulics places as there only about Ł1.50 each as apposed to Ł10+ for a pair on ebay
14-11-2012, 02:02 PM
#7
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I was wondering whats up with Cat cams?
All these breathers and returns your talking about, its easy,
oil return pressed into the front of the block and thats all the maching needed.
The standard breathers are more then capable of 430 bhp.
Also whats wrong with the standard water pump? Its normally the thermostats which caused me a problem as the plastic ones kept melting.
All these breathers and returns your talking about, its easy,
oil return pressed into the front of the block and thats all the maching needed.
The standard breathers are more then capable of 430 bhp.
Also whats wrong with the standard water pump? Its normally the thermostats which caused me a problem as the plastic ones kept melting.
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14-11-2012, 04:01 PM
#8
Advanced PassionFord User
As said, stock breathers fine unless you're using a ERST manifold. Then it catches so I usually put 2 ports to breathe from in the sump/windage tray at the rear, location depeneds on the gearbox you're using (i.e starter at the front or back). Cams all depends on what the c/r is
14-11-2012, 06:12 PM
#9
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Thread Starter
No concrete info on camshafts then...? I don't want to spend Ł400 odd on a pair of area six cams. This is already getting much more expensive than I planned lol
Will look into the cvh thermostat - useful tip thanks
Oil return - top stuff. cheers
Thanks to everyone else for useful input
14-11-2012, 06:55 PM
#11
Forgot to add, i had the water temp sender tapped into the thermostat housing and the ecu temp sensor tapped into the side of the head under the coil pack. IIRC the ecu temp sensor on the zetec is in the thermostat housing so you'll need to re-locate if using the CVH thermo housing
Last edited by Dennis_Wiseman; 14-11-2012 at 06:57 PM.
14-11-2012, 09:32 PM
#12
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Thread Starter
Forgot to add, i had the water temp sender tapped into the thermostat housing and the ecu temp sensor tapped into the side of the head under the coil pack. IIRC the ecu temp sensor on the zetec is in the thermostat housing so you'll need to re-locate if using the CVH thermo housing
What sort of hp are you running?
has anyone here actually melted the zetec thermostat?!!
15-11-2012, 07:06 AM
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They dont melt, but the plastic ones tend to crack i found. I went through 2 in 2 months, so i just bought the billet one, cost alot of money but never had any issues with it.
15-11-2012, 07:16 AM
#14
My plastic one has been on over a year without incident. You could get the alloy one off earlier zetecs though.
I fitted arp main studs as i was at it, some say not needed, but whilst i was at it and all that. It did mean that the windage tray needed some trimming to it though.
I fitted arp main studs as i was at it, some say not needed, but whilst i was at it and all that. It did mean that the windage tray needed some trimming to it though.
15-11-2012, 08:04 AM
#15
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Thread Starter
My plastic one has been on over a year without incident. You could get the alloy one off earlier zetecs though.
I fitted arp main studs as i was at it, some say not needed, but whilst i was at it and all that. It did mean that the windage tray needed some trimming to it though.
I fitted arp main studs as i was at it, some say not needed, but whilst i was at it and all that. It did mean that the windage tray needed some trimming to it though.
What did you do for the cylinder head?
Are you using stock head bolts
15-11-2012, 08:35 AM
#16
My head is a second hand area six one, their valve springs and retainers, phase one cams and a little port work to the exhaust side iirc.
I'm on standard head bolts, but if anything fails it'll get an m12 conversion done as it's not much in cost, just drilling and tapping really.
Payen st170 head gasket too, not overly expensive, but i trust payen to last unlike many other brands.
I'm on standard head bolts, but if anything fails it'll get an m12 conversion done as it's not much in cost, just drilling and tapping really.
Payen st170 head gasket too, not overly expensive, but i trust payen to last unlike many other brands.
Last edited by xr2wishy; 15-11-2012 at 08:37 AM.
19-11-2012, 09:50 PM
#17
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Thread Starter
ok,change of plan.
I was going to get the machine shop to reassemble the engine and port and polish the head seeing as they had it there but the cost is too much to afford basically so I am going to be building it myself after just getting them to do the machining only.
This is the list Ive got for them (they are going to give me the engine back unbuilt but machined). Am I missing anything? Im going to drill and weld the oil return pipe and breather if needed (need to see how the tubular manifold fits)
Rebore and hone the block for the pistons,
deck the block,
polish the crank and
surface the head.
also chemical clean the block (as I will be painting it).
Balance the rotating parts
Am I missing anything else lads?
Cheers
I was going to get the machine shop to reassemble the engine and port and polish the head seeing as they had it there but the cost is too much to afford basically so I am going to be building it myself after just getting them to do the machining only.
This is the list Ive got for them (they are going to give me the engine back unbuilt but machined). Am I missing anything? Im going to drill and weld the oil return pipe and breather if needed (need to see how the tubular manifold fits)
Rebore and hone the block for the pistons,
deck the block,
polish the crank and
surface the head.
also chemical clean the block (as I will be painting it).
Balance the rotating parts
Am I missing anything else lads?
Cheers
Last edited by zetecbeast; 19-11-2012 at 09:52 PM.
20-11-2012, 08:13 PM
#20
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Thread Starter
for the price it was going to cost for the engine build (including head port and polish), and new gaskets etc. , I reckon I would rather do it myself than pay that much..... (they want Ł2500 to build it up after a rebore, using my supplied forged pistons and rods, and uprated valve springs supplied by me *plus new seals and gaskets and head bolts and oil pump and water pump supplied by them*)
That seems pricey to me but maybe I'm a tight arse
??Although if I could bear to part with this much dosh I would rather them do it as they are a great firm and really know their stuff!
Last edited by zetecbeast; 20-11-2012 at 08:14 PM.
20-11-2012, 08:16 PM
#21
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Good point mate, a very good point - but that means I will have to pay them to assemble the crank and fit new mains and big end bearings etc.
for the price it was going to cost for the engine build (including head port and polish), and new gaskets etc. , I reckon I would rather do it myself than pay that much..... (they want Ł2500 to build it up after a rebore, using my supplied forged pistons and rods, and uprated valve springs supplied by me *plus new seals and gaskets and head bolts and oil pump and water pump supplied by them*)
That seems pricey to me but maybe I'm a tight arse??
Although if I could bear to part with this much dosh I would rather them do it as they are a great firm and really know their stuff!
for the price it was going to cost for the engine build (including head port and polish), and new gaskets etc. , I reckon I would rather do it myself than pay that much..... (they want Ł2500 to build it up after a rebore, using my supplied forged pistons and rods, and uprated valve springs supplied by me *plus new seals and gaskets and head bolts and oil pump and water pump supplied by them*)
That seems pricey to me but maybe I'm a tight arse
??Although if I could bear to part with this much dosh I would rather them do it as they are a great firm and really know their stuff!
20-11-2012, 08:21 PM
#22
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Thread Starter
20-11-2012, 08:25 PM
#23
gary is spot on here, that is way too much!!
i paid Ł160 for rebore, them to fit my pistons and check clearances thoroughly and write them down per cylinder, fit rods and measure the stretch on the arp bolts, fit shells and measure the stretch on the arp main stud kit.
granted no oil pump, water pump od port work, but they're well over charging.
i paid Ł160 for rebore, them to fit my pistons and check clearances thoroughly and write them down per cylinder, fit rods and measure the stretch on the arp bolts, fit shells and measure the stretch on the arp main stud kit.
granted no oil pump, water pump od port work, but they're well over charging.
20-11-2012, 08:28 PM
#24
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Thread Starter
to be fair, this is what the price includes. Just checked the email
Now, Ive researched into the cost of gasket sets and they are peanuts, main and big end bearings are maybe Ł130 from burton power for ACL or cheaper I guess for OEM.
Head gasket and head bolts are cheap enough (plus Ive got some sorted)
Oil pump I reckon is a lot for a genuine one. I'm not sure if I've been quoted for a genuine or pattern part but was planning on reusing mine??
Is this a fakie?
http://www.burtonpower.com/oil-pump-...rd-fz200m.html
Is this a bad idea if its not looking worn which it doesnt? I thought weathered ones were better lol
return pipe I can do in a half hour or so with drill and welder
head stage 1 port and polish and reassemble.
Hmmm, ? still steep?
Full balance.new main and big end bearings.full gaskets sets. mls black top head gasket. cyl block rebored and decked. crank polished.new oil pump.new water pump.timing belt kit.return pipe welded into sump.cylinder head port and polish
Head gasket and head bolts are cheap enough (plus Ive got some sorted)
Oil pump I reckon is a lot for a genuine one. I'm not sure if I've been quoted for a genuine or pattern part but was planning on reusing mine??
Is this a fakie?
http://www.burtonpower.com/oil-pump-...rd-fz200m.html
Is this a bad idea if its not looking worn which it doesnt? I thought weathered ones were better lol
return pipe I can do in a half hour or so with drill and welder
head stage 1 port and polish and reassemble.
Hmmm, ? still steep?
20-11-2012, 08:32 PM
#25
Under the car...!
Thread Starter
gary is spot on here, that is way too much!!
i paid Ł160 for rebore, them to fit my pistons and check clearances thoroughly and write them down per cylinder, fit rods and measure the stretch on the arp bolts, fit shells and measure the stretch on the arp main stud kit.
granted no oil pump, water pump od port work, but they're well over charging.
i paid Ł160 for rebore, them to fit my pistons and check clearances thoroughly and write them down per cylinder, fit rods and measure the stretch on the arp bolts, fit shells and measure the stretch on the arp main stud kit.
granted no oil pump, water pump od port work, but they're well over charging.
I nearly passed out when I got the quote
Does the above info change your thoughts?
I was thinking Ł1500 including vat (still thinking it was pricey!) and I *may of paid it. As its a grand more there's no way in hell...!
Last edited by zetecbeast; 20-11-2012 at 08:45 PM.
20-11-2012, 08:45 PM
#26
for about Ł400 i can get your head ported by someone very good, skimmed for you too.
head gaskets are about Ł30, bolts are about Ł20, the bottom end and manifold gaskets plus timing belt would be about Ł300. bottom end gasket set is nearly Ł100 on it's own.
old pumps stripped, cleaned and inspected are fine if they are in good order. water pump similarly, i didn't change mine and didn't fall apart.
Ł200 for basic machining should be right and building bottom end up.
head gaskets are about Ł30, bolts are about Ł20, the bottom end and manifold gaskets plus timing belt would be about Ł300. bottom end gasket set is nearly Ł100 on it's own.
old pumps stripped, cleaned and inspected are fine if they are in good order. water pump similarly, i didn't change mine and didn't fall apart.
Ł200 for basic machining should be right and building bottom end up.
20-11-2012, 09:40 PM
#27
Under the car...!
Thread Starter
for about Ł400 i can get your head ported by someone very good, skimmed for you too.
head gaskets are about Ł30, bolts are about Ł20, the bottom end and manifold gaskets plus timing belt would be about Ł300. bottom end gasket set is nearly Ł100 on it's own.
old pumps stripped, cleaned and inspected are fine if they are in good order. water pump similarly, i didn't change mine and didn't fall apart.
Ł200 for basic machining should be right and building bottom end up.
head gaskets are about Ł30, bolts are about Ł20, the bottom end and manifold gaskets plus timing belt would be about Ł300. bottom end gasket set is nearly Ł100 on it's own.
old pumps stripped, cleaned and inspected are fine if they are in good order. water pump similarly, i didn't change mine and didn't fall apart.
Ł200 for basic machining should be right and building bottom end up.
I best get hunting for the gasket sets I need then
20-11-2012, 09:51 PM
#28
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Thread Starter
Also, are the gasket sets on ebay allright anybody?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FORD-MONDE...item1e557df190
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3102098938...874%26_rdc%3D1
They have got sets for top and bottom end for about Ł50...
I know I need MLS one for the top end but they seem good prices.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FORD-MONDE...item1e557df190
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3102098938...874%26_rdc%3D1
They have got sets for top and bottom end for about Ł50...
I know I need MLS one for the top end but they seem good prices.
20-11-2012, 10:27 PM
#30
for about Ł400 i can get a ported head, de-shrouded, 3/4/5 angle seats, big valves (+1mm in, +3mm ex), faced and pressure tested all done by the machine shop that did speckys tigra head until this year 
can also get most other machine work carried out at a reasonable rate too, only downside is that i'm half the country away
can also get most other machine work carried out at a reasonable rate too, only downside is that i'm half the country away
20-11-2012, 10:40 PM
#31
Under the car...!
Thread Starter
for about Ł400 i can get a ported head, de-shrouded, 3/4/5 angle seats, big valves (+1mm in, +3mm ex), faced and pressure tested all done by the machine shop that did speckys tigra head until this year
can also get most other machine work carried out at a reasonable rate too, only downside is that i'm half the country away
can also get most other machine work carried out at a reasonable rate too, only downside is that i'm half the country away
Just wish I was nearer!
20-11-2012, 11:00 PM
#34
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Thread Starter
Will defo look into it mate
For anyone else unsure about Zetec cams like I was.
I found this cracking little guide on identifying them and what works in what (as I didn't know!)
http://ford-force.forumotion.com/t49...identification
For anyone else unsure about Zetec cams like I was.
I found this cracking little guide on identifying them and what works in what (as I didn't know!)
http://ford-force.forumotion.com/t49...identification
21-11-2012, 05:38 AM
#36
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Thread Starter
cheers mate.yep 86 mm forged pistons and steel rods. The main reason I was thinking was because the pistons are bigger than stock size, and maybe heavier? I might just have to suck up the bill for that bit then?
22-11-2012, 12:20 AM
#37
also, do you know if it would be being dynamically or statically balanced?
23-11-2012, 07:50 PM
#38
Under the car...!
Thread Starter
they may be bigger and heavier than the old ones, but the weight counteracts itself because of the other pistons and rods. getting the crank, pulley, fly and cover would be a good idea, but the rest is just a waste of cash imo. i've measures quite a few aftermarket rods and pistons and haven't come across any that are anywhere near out of balance yet
also, do you know if it would be being dynamically or statically balanced?
also, do you know if it would be being dynamically or statically balanced?
I've got a question for any zt geeks!!
ok, I've finally got the car in the air and am stripping bits out of it. Its a bitch to work on!
I need to know - I have a 1.8 silvertop turbo in their currently.
I have read that i need a 1.8 zetec (escort?) water pump, and also the 1.8 zetec oil pump if I want to keep things the same as they are now (belts and components)
Does the 2l silvertop water pump turn the opposite way to my 1.8 one?
Also, the 2 litre oil pump sites the oil filter in a different position to the 1.8 - I have got plenty of space up and down and about 3 inches forward - will the 2 litre oil pump work ok?
advice needed thanks guys