davidnormanuk

It's got to be worth a look in my opinion. If it's a legitimate car all the paperwork will check out ok. It seems that no-one on here has been to see it so I am more than happy to travel down to see it and go from there. If it does turn out to be dodgy it can be reported and and the person who's car it was originally may stand to get their car back. I totally understand it's alot of money to take a chance on something like this, but if all the homework is done before the cash is handed over I can't see the problem.

Are there any other traceable numbers on these cars to look for, i.e. under panels etc other than the chassis and engine number I can look for?

carlo

iTrader: (4)

I give up , keep us posted on the car will be good to see a outcome

RWD_cossie_wil

iTrader: (9)

In a word, no.

Why would you devalue a car by thousands of pounds & have trouble selling it just to save a few quid on the insurance?

There are only 2 reasons to put an Escos onto an rs2k log book, 1 is to save the hassle of registering a new build / Q plate etc, the other is to get a cheap ID for a stolen car.

carlo

iTrader: (4)

Exactly will but a new build would have recepits for everything and could be registered on the latest reg unless you have stripped a full escort cosworth and swapping bits over but why bother when you can change a few number and have a rs2000/cosworth for very little work

These cars pop up all the time and all with the same story alot of them are just cars popping up from when there was a craze to steel them back in the day

The old rally car excuse gets brought up and you can tell them a mile away the shells are fucked cut up for cages no bulkhead lining etc had panels and just generally fucked , that aurliss car and red car are far too good to be both

furry

well to blow your theory out the water my old EVO was registered with the DVLA as a lancer GL and not an evo when it came into the country and it was allowed to happen because there not checked. this therefore means less import tax to pay as the vehicle is deemed to be worth less.

Whats weird is both these cars come up on "my car check" the blue one is listed as a ESCORT RS2000 4WD the red one is listed as ESCORT RS2000 but FWD.

neither car is found with the DVLA though.

I suspect all of these rs2000 reg'd ESCOS are due to them being imported in.

davidnormanuk

Could the log book be changed to show it as an escort Cosworth?

stevenr

In a word,no

furry

no defo not, tried this back in 96 to get my xr3i cab changed to rs turbo cab lol

was worth a try.

davidnormanuk

Hi all,

I've spoken to the owner and he has said it was his brothers car who has died.

He built the car up using a brand new engine and chassis from Ford and has all the receipts to prove this. The interior etc he bought second hand. The RS2000 numbers came from a doner car as he didn't want the car to go onto a Q plate for insurance purposes.

The engine doesn't have any numbers on. He said that when you buy an engine from Ford Brand new they come without any numbers on. I have phoned Ford up to confirm this and they are coming back to me tomorrow.

Now I have worked for a motorbike shop for a number of years and know you can buy a new frame without any ID what so ever which you stamp up yourself (Bike shop) but the original head stock from the knackered frame needs to be sent back to the manufacturer.

I'm not sure this is the case when it comes to cars as I have no experience when it comes to the car side.

Is this feasable.

Before anyone comes on saying yes mate it's a ringer bla bla bla, I'd like to hear from someone who has had experience of this in the past. Like I've said in an earlier post, I'm trying to do as much homework as possible so any help is appreciated.

Cheers
Dave

marco polo

iTrader: (1)

dont forget guys alot of the escort cossie motorsport rally shells are on mk5's or Rs2000' log books

now a full road spec escort cossie on Rs2000 log book sounds dodgy to me

marco

Fil

David Norman, its a cheaper escort Cosworth, than a real one, not by much. And hasn't sold that quickly, so if you buy it you will have the same resale issues! If that's what you want.

AS its a fake Cosworth, would say worth a punt at 6k. But doubt the seller would drop that low, so best bet if he wants the cash, he needs to break it for parts.


Spend 7/8k on a decent real sapphire Cosworth

Iain Mac

A new shell and engine supported by invoices is nice but the car should almost certainly have passed an SVA test before being registered.

I built my car using a new shell and an XR4x4 donor, but changing the shell from 2 wheel drive to 4 wheel drive made the test a requirement for registration, and then I got an age-related plate based on the age of the donor.

The DVLA evaluate the ID of the "new" car on a points system and needed 8 in total: 5 would come from the brand new shell, 0 for the replacement non-original engine, and easy enough to pass off the brakes/steering/suspension/transmission as being from the donor to get the other 3 points that would allow the "new" car to retain the old car model detail.

Ask to see the V5 - the front page should say it has been rebuilt from parts, some of which may not have been new.
Also, if the guy's brother built it, he should be the only keeper and there should be a big gap between date of manufacture and date of registration.

Anything not as above means he just stamped the RS2000 details into the new (?) shell and would potentially cause problems in the future when you try to sell on or if an overzealous official starts poking around.

Having said that, though, who ever sees your log book, and how many random passers-by are sad enough to dial in a stranger's car reg number to check it is what it looks like?

If it is as I've described, you have to decide if the price is fair for a modified car - it won't ever be a real Cosworth because the paperwork is wrong and it isn't an RS2000 because it has the wrong body and engine and trim.

yblee

Think this is the car me and my mate looked at,over croyden way about 4 years ago ,it was a cat b so it could not go back on the road,Scottish solider had it ,and a kid nicked it at a party they were having and crashed it about 200 meters down the road,it had pushed the turret up a bit and wrecked the bonnet and bumper,we was going to buy it and do same lol

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

so in other words your car was deliberately incorretly registered to gain a tax advantage. That is clearly illegal.

A VOSA official could quite legitimately force your car off the road until it is correctly registered. And if you dont have original documentation to prove your car is an evo it would end up on a Q plate.

Just because people have got away with illegally misregistering a car doesnt mean they will get away with it forever.
In theory if its a genuine escos then it could be re-registered as an escos albeit likely on a q plate. he would need proof of the shell and ALL new parts to get it registered by scratch.

However the VOSA/DVLA people are not keen on giving out clean ID's for cars that have been previously illegally registered so its likely youd eventually end up after an IVA with a correctly registered escos on a q plate.
depends on when it was built up. It almost certainly would be forced through IVA these days if it officially came to light how it was built.

Indeed it is easy enough to pass off the suspension and axles. They are all ford stamped OE parts so unless the inspector is also a ford parts code geek, then he would not know any different.

Although to the letter of the law it should be the same parts from the donor car but the parts are pretty much "unidentifiable" in that sense.

Not forgetting they could have been replaced with new during the donor cars life and hence not be original anyway.

They are mostly only bothered with the identifiable parts such as shell and engine.

Although they have hotted up on things lately as people have been caught taking the piss. eg especially on engine swaps. Eg buy on old sierra or jag for a cobra kit, then do an "engine swap" with DVLA to a chevy v8 then use the car as a donor for a kit car.

So these days they can be anal about insisting that the engine swap was sometime before the car was stripped or having proof that the engine was actually in the car.

The kit car mags go as far as saying you should take photos when you strip the donor down as proof where you got the parts from. They also suggest this to prove it is amatuer built as the registration rules are different for amateur builds and factory/professional builds and people have got cars professionally built then tried to register it as amatuer built.

In fact Chevy v8's are subject to special engine code checks now due to people passing off new blocks imported from south america as old seasoned blocks for emissions purposes

idiots are clearly taking the piss too much.
Ive never seen that personally and ive owned a couple of legitimately registered re-shells and rebuilt cars over the years.

bluescortcossie

its possible to have a legit escos on a RS2000 log book ,

back in the late 90's I knew someone who worked in a Ford dealership and they told me of a few f**k ups when they registered some cars incorrectly , they basically ticked the wrong box , they ticked (or wrote) "RS 4wd" - engine size : 2000 on the sheet which was for the RS2000 4x4 , most got rectified but some went unnoticed

wasn't just cossie's either , quite a few have been registered wrong over the years , I had a fiesta that was a "L" on the log book but was actually a popular , not that it mattered as it was toss anyway !

I still wouldn't go near a escos on a RS2000 log book though , even if the registration was proved to wrong in the first place

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

if it was a dealer typo its relatively easy to correct as the other data entered would have matched an escos not an rs2000. for a start the type approval numbers are different.

Although we must be talking about tiny number of cars that the dealer messed up reg forms for and still 20 years later havent been corrected.

bluescortcossie

definitely , will only be 1 or 2 that slipped the net and left uncorrected , only realistic scenario i can think of is the car was exported shortly after new then has been brought back into the UK recently ????

i would imagine any car like that would have been broken up by now due to people not being able to sell them other than to a breaker , or breaking themselves

carlo

iTrader: (4)

Guys the op has already bought the cock n bull story about the car & isnt listening sounds like he will buy it regardless

davidnormanuk

Not the case. As mentioned earlier, there is nothing wrong with doing the homework on something like this. There are a lot of knowledgeable people on this forum. There's nothing wrong with asking for help and advice about this situation, especially when people off here have had experience of something similar in the past.

Nick.W

iTrader: (1)

I personally wouldn't buy an ESCOS with anything other than 'Escort Cosworth' on the log book. 8k+ is a lot of money for a car that you will never be able to put right. Especially when there are 'proper' ones for £1500 more.

Iain Mac

I'm not sure I would buy the line aboout a dealer typo - in my experience, the manufacturer supplies the document to register a new car, already filled in wih all the technical info including model, engine, transmission, VIN, type-approval etc.

These documents then form part of the manufacturer's audit process when checking that vehicles held in stock are actually present (important when the maker owns the cars as they have't been adopted - paid for - by the retailer yet).

stevenr

He didn't ask about re-registering it though did he? He asked if the logbook could be changed to say Escort Cosworth.

Which surely it can't because it never existed as a Cosworth,only an RS2000 according to the ID it now has.

If one was to try though,would that not open up a big can of worms with regards to how it came to have an RS2000 ID if it was all genuine new Cosworth parts?

I still stand by my far simpler answer of no.

davidnormanuk

Update so far.

I have contacted Ford the they have gave me the chassis number. The engine number isn't on their system.

Registered 01/08/96
Blue
RS2000 3-DR

The engine should have numbers on according to Ford. They went direct to the warehouse and had a look on the shelf at a new engine.

carlo

iTrader: (4)

The chasis number will be the same on the car as it is on fords system and the log book how its been put on the car is a different story you really want to be taking the drivers seat out plastic sill trim that covers the door appeture and carpet , lift it all back and look for a plate or number tampering but to be honest your going to find that regardles as we know its not the original shell so where do you go from there ?

Madgit

It probably "rusted away" around there so they just welded a patch in.

carlo

iTrader: (4)

That will be the next escuse

RWD_cossie_wil

iTrader: (9)

All that proves is that an old rs2000 has had its chassis plates stuck onto a stolen/built up Escos shell?

davidnormanuk

Update

I have just spoken to the DVLA who was as helpful as ever.

They have said they can't give me any information over the phone due to it breaking data protection. He basically said that the information on the V5 is all they have access too.

Surely there is some sort of department I can contact to see if a physical check on the car should be made?

St3V3_C

Ask for a scan of the engine reciept. I would imagine the number would be on there?

carlo

iTrader: (4)

Can you not hpi check it ? or can vosa not tell you if its ever had a vic check done chances are nobody has ever told anyone its been swapped over so your flogging a dead horse all they will confirm is a rs2000 not a aurliss blue small turbo escort cosworth

davidnormanuk

HPi check comes back as an RS2000 in blue.

I could contact vosa to see what they say, good idea.

carlo

iTrader: (4)

I would imagine if its been logged properly as being reshelled and major transmission / engine changes it would have needed some sort of check

davidnormanuk

I would've thought that. I've sent an email off so lets see what happens. At the end of the day if the cars a ringer, everyone on here will know for definite by the time I've done.

carlo

iTrader: (4)

lol it its anyway but you be better checking it / finding it out for yourself that way you can settle , be worth going to see the car as well you will to see if its been done properly what state the floor is in , check the glass etching etc

Iain Mac

I don't think there's any doubt that the car is a ringer.

The only debate seems to be whether it is a "legitimate" ringer, done by the owner for his convenience in avoiding the proper procedure to register the car, or if it's a "real" ringer, done to conceal the identity of a stolen car.

carlo

iTrader: (4)

Is it worth taking the gamble ? imho they are both 5 grand car / breakers

davidnormanuk

It's not worth taking a gamble to be honest. I've gone back to the owner asking for scans etc of the documentation to see what the score is. I've sent an email off to Vosa to see if they can confirm anything. If the relevant departments don't know anything about it then it's a no go.

carlo

iTrader: (4)

There is a rwd escort cossie with big turbo conversion for £9995 im sure thats the real thing be much better investing in that its a tad more expensive but at least you know exactly what you have

davidnormanuk

I'll most likely go down that route to be honest as it's a lot less hassle. I'm like a dog with a bone though and would like to get a result just out of interest. Plus it gives me something to look into whilst I'm at work

carlo

iTrader: (4)

There is also a white big turbo Q late here , its got no front splitter but its £6700 im sure and all the right paperwork is there for it along with a forum member owning the car when it was stolen & recovered so its confirmed its the right car
http://www.escortrscosworth.com/foru...ad.php?t=30471

It could do with tidying a bit but at the same time it can be backed up