Running COP's in wasted spark format?
12-05-2012, 05:59 PM
#1
Running COP's in wasted spark format?
Am I right in thinking every car fitted with Coil on Plug coils from the factory are fired sequentially?
I can't see why you couldn't physically fire them in a wasted spark format but would that kill them as say if you had a rev limit of 7500rpm would they need to beable to cope with 15000rpm as you are firing them twice as much with less dwell time?
If this is the case would COP's off a bike be the best to use?
Cheers Rich
I can't see why you couldn't physically fire them in a wasted spark format but would that kill them as say if you had a rev limit of 7500rpm would they need to beable to cope with 15000rpm as you are firing them twice as much with less dwell time?
If this is the case would COP's off a bike be the best to use?
Cheers Rich
Last edited by Sonic Boom; 12-05-2012 at 06:10 PM.
13-05-2012, 10:18 AM
#7
Am I right in thinking every car fitted with Coil on Plug coils from the factory are fired sequentially?
I can't see why you couldn't physically fire them in a wasted spark format but would that kill them as say if you had a rev limit of 7500rpm would they need to beable to cope with 15000rpm as you are firing them twice as much with less dwell time?
If this is the case would COP's off a bike be the best to use?
Cheers Rich
I can't see why you couldn't physically fire them in a wasted spark format but would that kill them as say if you had a rev limit of 7500rpm would they need to beable to cope with 15000rpm as you are firing them twice as much with less dwell time?
If this is the case would COP's off a bike be the best to use?
Cheers Rich
What exactly are you trying to do, and what coil fitment do you require ? And what ecu are you using ?
Do you need to run 15k rpm ?
And no, not all cars with a single coil per cylinder are direct fire, although most are.
Whether or not you can wire them to fire as pairs will depend on the ecu and coil drivers. They need paired at the low level signal side ( ie before the ignition amp ) and then they can be fired whatever way you want.
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13-05-2012, 10:51 AM
#8
What exactly are you trying to do, and what coil fitment do you require ? And what ecu are you using ?
Do you need to run 15k rpm ?
And no, not all cars with a single coil per cylinder are direct fire, although most are.
Whether or not you can wire them to fire as pairs will depend on the ecu and coil drivers. They need paired at the low level signal side ( ie before the ignition amp ) and then they can be fired whatever way you want.
Do you need to run 15k rpm ?
And no, not all cars with a single coil per cylinder are direct fire, although most are.
Whether or not you can wire them to fire as pairs will depend on the ecu and coil drivers. They need paired at the low level signal side ( ie before the ignition amp ) and then they can be fired whatever way you want.
My rev limit is 7500 rpm.
I want to wire up the COP's to fire in wasted spark format.
Rich
13-05-2012, 11:58 AM
#9
Advanced PassionFord User
The EVO boys have been doing COP in a wasted spark format for years...
Thread to explain....
http://www.lancerregister.com/showth...il+plug&page=7
http://www.szabaga.com/store/diyconn.html
HTH
Ian
Thread to explain....
http://www.lancerregister.com/showth...il+plug&page=7
http://www.szabaga.com/store/diyconn.html
HTH
Ian
Last edited by ian sibbert; 13-05-2012 at 12:01 PM.
13-05-2012, 01:00 PM
#11
The EVO boys have been doing COP in a wasted spark format for years...
Thread to explain....
http://www.lancerregister.com/showth...il+plug&page=7
http://www.szabaga.com/store/diyconn.html
HTH
Ian
Thread to explain....
http://www.lancerregister.com/showth...il+plug&page=7
http://www.szabaga.com/store/diyconn.html
HTH
Ian
How come?
Cheers Rich
13-05-2012, 02:39 PM
#12
13-05-2012, 02:53 PM
#13
I read through the MLR thread and it looks pretty straight forward and the coils they recommend are the ones I have and are happy to work fired in batches as wasted spark.
These coils have their own amps built in so I presume all i'll need is an earth a 12v supply and just the signal from the ecu for firing 1 & 4 and 2 & 3
I'm going to make a sub loom up by passing the twin amp set up and see how I get on, unless I've missed some thing glaring out and i'm about to set something on fire?
Rich
These coils have their own amps built in so I presume all i'll need is an earth a 12v supply and just the signal from the ecu for firing 1 & 4 and 2 & 3
I'm going to make a sub loom up by passing the twin amp set up and see how I get on, unless I've missed some thing glaring out and i'm about to set something on fire?
Rich
13-05-2012, 04:37 PM
#14
PassionFord Post Troll
13-05-2012, 06:21 PM
#16
I read through the MLR thread and it looks pretty straight forward and the coils they recommend are the ones I have and are happy to work fired in batches as wasted spark.
These coils have their own amps built in so I presume all i'll need is an earth a 12v supply and just the signal from the ecu for firing 1 & 4 and 2 & 3
I'm going to make a sub loom up by passing the twin amp set up and see how I get on, unless I've missed some thing glaring out and i'm about to set something on fire?
Rich
These coils have their own amps built in so I presume all i'll need is an earth a 12v supply and just the signal from the ecu for firing 1 & 4 and 2 & 3
I'm going to make a sub loom up by passing the twin amp set up and see how I get on, unless I've missed some thing glaring out and i'm about to set something on fire?
Rich
You are making a huge assumption as to what coils your setup can or cannot trigger.
The actual firing of two coils together is the least important thing you need to know. That's the easiest bit.
You need to ask MSD what sort of output trigger the ecu sends and whether it is suitable, and/or if you may need to retain their additional board and then use it to trigger normal inductive coils.
13-05-2012, 06:27 PM
#17
Yes you have missed something glaring out. The article you read is about an Evo. With an Evo ecu and coil triggering system
You are making a huge assumption as to what coils your setup can or cannot trigger.
The actual firing of two coils together is the least important thing you need to know. That's the easiest bit.
You need to ask MSD what sort of output trigger the ecu sends and whether it is suitable, and/or if you may need to retain their additional board and then use it to trigger normal inductive coils.
You are making a huge assumption as to what coils your setup can or cannot trigger.
The actual firing of two coils together is the least important thing you need to know. That's the easiest bit.
You need to ask MSD what sort of output trigger the ecu sends and whether it is suitable, and/or if you may need to retain their additional board and then use it to trigger normal inductive coils.
So a certain coil will a certain signal voltage to trigger it?
So I need to match up the wasted spark board output with a suitable coil trigger voltage?
Cheers Rich
13-05-2012, 06:34 PM
#18
Some require a 5v signal to either tell them to charge, or fire.
Some may require anywhere between 0-12v to tell them to either charge or fire on application or removal of that voltage.
You have no idea what sort of signal your ecu outputs, nor the wasted spark drivers. So you've no idea whether the COP's you intend to use can even be used with your ecu.
Fitting unsuitable ones can fry the coil drivers in the ecu, or the coils themselves.
13-05-2012, 06:50 PM
#19
Some simple coils just require an earth to charge, and once this is removed they fire.
Some require a 5v signal to either tell them to charge, or fire.
Some may require anywhere between 0-12v to tell them to either charge or fire on application or removal of that voltage.
You have no idea what sort of signal your ecu outputs, nor the wasted spark drivers. So you've no idea whether the COP's you intend to use can even be used with your ecu.
Fitting unsuitable ones can fry the coil drivers in the ecu, or the coils themselves.
Some require a 5v signal to either tell them to charge, or fire.
Some may require anywhere between 0-12v to tell them to either charge or fire on application or removal of that voltage.
You have no idea what sort of signal your ecu outputs, nor the wasted spark drivers. So you've no idea whether the COP's you intend to use can even be used with your ecu.
Fitting unsuitable ones can fry the coil drivers in the ecu, or the coils themselves.
Cheers Rich
13-05-2012, 07:00 PM
#20
But you could ask MSD ? Is it really that difficult instead of guessing ?
If you really want to check it yourself, get an oscilloscope and test it.
13-05-2012, 07:08 PM
#21
Where as my Cossie is right outside and if it's something I can do myself i'd like to try.
From doing abit of research with the aid of Google Pin 25 fires 2 & 3 and Pin 26 fires 1 & 4 using a 0-5v trigger.
Rich
13-05-2012, 07:24 PM
#22
PassionFord Post Troll
Some simple coils just require an earth to charge, and once this is removed they fire.
Some require a 5v signal to either tell them to charge, or fire.
Some may require anywhere between 0-12v to tell them to either charge or fire on application or removal of that voltage.
You have no idea what sort of signal your ecu outputs, nor the wasted spark drivers. So you've no idea whether the COP's you intend to use can even be used with your ecu.
Fitting unsuitable ones can fry the coil drivers in the ecu, or the coils themselves.
Some require a 5v signal to either tell them to charge, or fire.
Some may require anywhere between 0-12v to tell them to either charge or fire on application or removal of that voltage.
You have no idea what sort of signal your ecu outputs, nor the wasted spark drivers. So you've no idea whether the COP's you intend to use can even be used with your ecu.
Fitting unsuitable ones can fry the coil drivers in the ecu, or the coils themselves.
i started haveing a play with a scope on a yaris but ran out of time and never got anywhere with it then ended up stripping the car
13-05-2012, 08:00 PM
#23
PassionFord Post Troll
https://passionford.com/forum/restorations-rebuilds-and-projects/206048-my-escort-cosworth-now-on-the-road-again.html
here you go this is him, not sure if hes on here anymore for 1 reason or another BUT worth a try as his car runs these
here you go this is him, not sure if hes on here anymore for 1 reason or another BUT worth a try as his car runs these
13-05-2012, 08:11 PM
#24
https://passionford.com/forum/restorations-rebuilds-and-projects/206048-my-escort-cosworth-now-on-the-road-again.html
here you go this is him, not sure if hes on here anymore for 1 reason or another BUT worth a try as his car runs these
here you go this is him, not sure if hes on here anymore for 1 reason or another BUT worth a try as his car runs these
Rich
13-05-2012, 08:33 PM
#26
I tried ringing them but it just rings out! Must be because it's 8pm on a Sunday night.
Where as my Cossie is right outside and if it's something I can do myself i'd like to try.
From doing abit of research with the aid of Google Pin 25 fires 2 & 3 and Pin 26 fires 1 & 4 using a 0-5v trigger.
Rich
Where as my Cossie is right outside and if it's something I can do myself i'd like to try.
From doing abit of research with the aid of Google Pin 25 fires 2 & 3 and Pin 26 fires 1 & 4 using a 0-5v trigger.
Rich
You just need to know whether the ecu and coil fire on the rising edge or falling edge. If the pairup is wrong, you could again burn something out, or destroy your engine with incorrect ignition timing.
13-05-2012, 09:18 PM
#29
IF that is the case...and it is a big IF. Then you should be able to fire a coil with a built in ignitor directly from the ecu.
You just need to know whether the ecu and coil fire on the rising edge or falling edge. If the pairup is wrong, you could again burn something out, or destroy your engine with incorrect ignition timing.
You just need to know whether the ecu and coil fire on the rising edge or falling edge. If the pairup is wrong, you could again burn something out, or destroy your engine with incorrect ignition timing.
Or is it something I can research?
Rich
13-05-2012, 09:30 PM
#30
PassionFord Post Troll
13-05-2012, 09:34 PM
#31
And given the risks involved it would be crazy to try and make it work, without knowing 100% what you are about to do is correct.
13-05-2012, 10:24 PM
#33
13-05-2012, 10:41 PM
#34
Advanced PassionFord User
http://rp-lab.com/images/ICP_screens...iagnostics.png
http://rp-lab.com/distributorless_ignition_system.shtml
http://rp-lab.com/tech_documents/PDF...ed%20spark.pdf
MSD are listed as the UK Distributor...
According to RP labs you can do COP in the recognised way..
http://rp-lab.com/distributorless_ignition_system.shtml
http://rp-lab.com/tech_documents/PDF...ed%20spark.pdf
MSD are listed as the UK Distributor...
According to RP labs you can do COP in the recognised way..
13-05-2012, 10:55 PM
#35
http://rp-lab.com/images/ICP_screens...iagnostics.png
http://rp-lab.com/distributorless_ignition_system.shtml
http://rp-lab.com/tech_documents/PDF...ed%20spark.pdf
MSD are listed as the UK Distributor...
According to RP labs you can do COP in the recognised way..
http://rp-lab.com/distributorless_ignition_system.shtml
http://rp-lab.com/tech_documents/PDF...ed%20spark.pdf
MSD are listed as the UK Distributor...
According to RP labs you can do COP in the recognised way..
The coils I have, have built in amps so I was looking at using that wiring diagram minus the amps. But as it been made clear it might not be that simple.
Rich
14-05-2012, 06:53 PM
#37
PassionFord Post Troll
http://rp-lab.com/images/ICP_screens...iagnostics.png
http://rp-lab.com/distributorless_ignition_system.shtml
http://rp-lab.com/tech_documents/PDF...ed%20spark.pdf
MSD are listed as the UK Distributor...
According to RP labs you can do COP in the recognised way..
http://rp-lab.com/distributorless_ignition_system.shtml
http://rp-lab.com/tech_documents/PDF...ed%20spark.pdf
MSD are listed as the UK Distributor...
According to RP labs you can do COP in the recognised way..
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