Best way to max out a T4?
16-01-2012, 06:13 PM
#126
To be fair James I think it had issues before they mapped it but at the end of the day I had a engine which I stuck a T4 on and asked them to get the most they could out of it,but it still beat Doug's car on the same day on the same RR 
Steve
Steve
16-01-2012, 06:24 PM
#127
like I've said before mate, I've seen some crazy dyne graphs from my own car.
On a day when at least 20 cars were run, and all came off under powered, a mate ran his 803s t34 escort cos, and made 338bhp, spot on.
i went on next
i made this on a t34.48
So why were all the other cars under powered? why was the car before me bang on the money?
Or did my car break the laws of physics
Im sure looking at dougs boost, knowing the ignition map, and having seen how much fuel it uses from 83lb injectors to keep the AFR correct that it is certainly more than 416bhp
Theres certainly more to get from it, no doubt at all about that I'm sure we could revise the map, make some cam timing, spec tweaks, but it will already be in the very high 400s at 28-30psi.
Like i said again, the similar spec car we have in made 519bhp last time it was run. So why is that?
Ive just learned to ignore pretty much all dyne graphs, or at least take them with a pinch of salt, they show very little about a cars performance in the real world, but they are great for causing arguments or bragging to your mates in the pub.
Oh and that block is still here if you want it
On a day when at least 20 cars were run, and all came off under powered, a mate ran his 803s t34 escort cos, and made 338bhp, spot on.
i went on next
i made this on a t34.48
So why were all the other cars under powered? why was the car before me bang on the money?
Or did my car break the laws of physics
Im sure looking at dougs boost, knowing the ignition map, and having seen how much fuel it uses from 83lb injectors to keep the AFR correct that it is certainly more than 416bhp
Theres certainly more to get from it, no doubt at all about that I'm sure we could revise the map, make some cam timing, spec tweaks, but it will already be in the very high 400s at 28-30psi.
Like i said again, the similar spec car we have in made 519bhp last time it was run. So why is that?
Ive just learned to ignore pretty much all dyne graphs, or at least take them with a pinch of salt, they show very little about a cars performance in the real world, but they are great for causing arguments or bragging to your mates in the pub.
Oh and that block is still here if you want it
Last edited by James @ M Developments.; 16-01-2012 at 06:34 PM.
16-01-2012, 06:34 PM
#128
What your not telling us though is you had two T34's on the old girl lol.
On the rr in question all the T4 cars except the RS500 made low power than what the owners expected them being mine(fair enough it had a cracked block) Dan's at rapidford which i beleive is a Turbosystems map and Doug's.
I don't know why.
Steve
On the rr in question all the T4 cars except the RS500 made low power than what the owners expected them being mine(fair enough it had a cracked block) Dan's at rapidford which i beleive is a Turbosystems map and Doug's.
I don't know why.
Steve
16-01-2012, 06:39 PM
#129
Look at the sort of times Wenny was running in his escort, with one of our T4 83lb maps on it, i don't see anyone claiming that was 400bhp
infact i have his map on my workshop Laptop, i will take a look at it tomorrow and compare it to dougs,
infact i have his map on my workshop Laptop, i will take a look at it tomorrow and compare it to dougs,
Last edited by James @ M Developments.; 16-01-2012 at 06:40 PM.
16-01-2012, 06:44 PM
#131
i think i read 28psi,
when the car was mapped by stu some years ago it was peaking at 37 going by the mapping records.
so it has lost some, maybe a lazy actuator, tired turbo, cam tweaks, but it should still make good power all day long.
We are normally pretty spot on at judging power as we drive so many, but with dougs weird gearbox and ratios it makes it pretty hard to judge in that respect.
when the car was mapped by stu some years ago it was peaking at 37 going by the mapping records.
so it has lost some, maybe a lazy actuator, tired turbo, cam tweaks, but it should still make good power all day long.
We are normally pretty spot on at judging power as we drive so many, but with dougs weird gearbox and ratios it makes it pretty hard to judge in that respect.
Last edited by James @ M Developments.; 16-01-2012 at 06:49 PM.
16-01-2012, 06:55 PM
#133
yes it does lol and the map is good!
i saw a map from an 8 injector T4 car a few months ago, had a host of running issues, and had been mapped by "another tuner" was way down on power,
when we ripped the map to bits and had a look at the ignition map, the top line had, wait for it...
1 degree of advance in it!
You could have run it on fookin diesel
even that was making just over 400bhp
i saw a map from an 8 injector T4 car a few months ago, had a host of running issues, and had been mapped by "another tuner" was way down on power,
when we ripped the map to bits and had a look at the ignition map, the top line had, wait for it...
1 degree of advance in it!
You could have run it on fookin diesel
even that was making just over 400bhp
Last edited by James @ M Developments.; 16-01-2012 at 07:19 PM.
16-01-2012, 07:42 PM
#134
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i think i read 28psi,
when the car was mapped by stu some years ago it was peaking at 37 going by the mapping records.
so it has lost some, maybe a lazy actuator, tired turbo, cam tweaks, but it should still make good power all day long.
We are normally pretty spot on at judging power as we drive so many, but with dougs weird gearbox and ratios it makes it pretty hard to judge in that respect.
when the car was mapped by stu some years ago it was peaking at 37 going by the mapping records.
so it has lost some, maybe a lazy actuator, tired turbo, cam tweaks, but it should still make good power all day long.
We are normally pretty spot on at judging power as we drive so many, but with dougs weird gearbox and ratios it makes it pretty hard to judge in that respect.
.. Still love that car though, weapon!
23-05-2012, 02:55 PM
#135
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Thought I'd drag this old thread up as I've finally got round to talking about this with my mapper... We've gone for BD16 inlet and BD15 exhaust.
He said if it was a 100% road car then he'd have opted for the standard ex cam but as we're going to be doing some 1/4 mile work we've gone for the more top end of the BD15.
He just screwed his face up when looking at the BD14 profile.. Obviously didn't think much of it
For reference for people searching in the future- link to the newmans cams details:
http://www.newman-cams.com/pdf/fordcosworth.pdf
He said if it was a 100% road car then he'd have opted for the standard ex cam but as we're going to be doing some 1/4 mile work we've gone for the more top end of the BD15.
He just screwed his face up when looking at the BD14 profile.. Obviously didn't think much of it
For reference for people searching in the future- link to the newmans cams details:
http://www.newman-cams.com/pdf/fordcosworth.pdf
23-05-2012, 06:07 PM
#136
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Thought I'd drag this old thread up as I've finally got round to talking about this with my mapper... We've gone for BD16 inlet and BD15 exhaust.
He said if it was a 100% road car then he'd have opted for the standard ex cam but as we're going to be doing some 1/4 mile work we've gone for the more top end of the BD15.
He just screwed his face up when looking at the BD14 profile.. Obviously didn't think much of it
For reference for people searching in the future- link to the newmans cams details:
http://www.newman-cams.com/pdf/fordcosworth.pdf
He said if it was a 100% road car then he'd have opted for the standard ex cam but as we're going to be doing some 1/4 mile work we've gone for the more top end of the BD15.
He just screwed his face up when looking at the BD14 profile.. Obviously didn't think much of it
For reference for people searching in the future- link to the newmans cams details:
http://www.newman-cams.com/pdf/fordcosworth.pdf
A bd15 ex will give like 25-30 hp more at the top but i mean like for a 500 rpm period than say a std ex cam but you will also raise the lag for the same 500 rpm..
Id keep the cr upto say 8.0.1 and no lower than 7.8.1 and keep a std ex cam..
If your dealing with ken from newmans then ask for a 280.433 inlet cam
This cam with 112 inlet cam timing and 108 exhaust cam timing with a std ex cam with the right mapping and cr will give you 500+hp still ,dying of just over 7k but will have a mass of torque much lower down and right through 5.5k..
If you want any more details on this then give me a pm mate
23-05-2012, 06:46 PM
#137
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Thanks mate, my mapping is done by Horsham developments. (Syvecs experts)
We are going to run 8:1 comp (should be getting the bottom end built up within the next few months)
280&433? fook me dude that's a big-ass cam. Is this something you've tried personally with a T4?
As I said earlier we wanted the bit of extra grunt at the top of the rev range for the 1/4 mile usage hence why I've ordered the BD15 ex...
We are going to run 8:1 comp (should be getting the bottom end built up within the next few months)
280&433? fook me dude that's a big-ass cam. Is this something you've tried personally with a T4?
As I said earlier we wanted the bit of extra grunt at the top of the rev range for the 1/4 mile usage
hence why I've ordered the BD15 ex...
23-05-2012, 06:58 PM
#138
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Thanks mate, my mapping is done by Horsham developments. (Syvecs experts)
We are going to run 8:1 comp (should be getting the bottom end built up within the next few months)
280&433? fook me dude that's a big-ass cam. Is this something you've tried personally with a T4?
As I said earlier we wanted the bit of extra grunt at the top of the rev range for the 1/4 mile usage hence why I've ordered the BD15 ex...
We are going to run 8:1 comp (should be getting the bottom end built up within the next few months)
280&433? fook me dude that's a big-ass cam. Is this something you've tried personally with a T4?
As I said earlier we wanted the bit of extra grunt at the top of the rev range for the 1/4 mile usage
hence why I've ordered the BD15 ex...Oh thats weird ive heard of horsham developements before,their not in horsham though are they??
Well its up to you mate but the std ex and that inlet will be awesome and iv done it to lots of t4 and other turbo engines with great results!!
For quarter miles mate grip torque and gearing is the most important thing ime.
If for example you were to run out of fourth gear before the end of the run then yes the bigger exhaust might help and save the extra gear change but id say depending on power and gear ratios you will more than likely be in fourth so wont gain any advantage with the higher peak revs??
Just have a real good think mate as a laggy t4 powered car is horrid to drive compared to a torque monster!!
That inlet cam is the danglies!!
23-05-2012, 07:38 PM
#139
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H-Dev do a lot of Jap tuning mate, lol no they aren't in Horsham it's the surname of the owner A good friend of mine.
I reckon I'll be topping out 4th gear as I'm on a 3.9:1 diff.
If the 16/15 combo doesn't work then I can always swap cams.. I've got a few std ex cams lying about.
iirc I think Wenny was on a 16/15 combo and put down some banging times ( a bit different I know!)
A good friend of mine.I reckon I'll be topping out 4th gear as I'm on a 3.9:1 diff.
If the 16/15 combo doesn't work then I can always swap cams.. I've got a few std ex cams lying about.
iirc I think Wenny was on a 16/15 combo and put down some banging times ( a bit different I know!)
Last edited by bigluke200; 23-05-2012 at 07:40 PM.
23-05-2012, 07:47 PM
#140
Back to back test.
Std ex and a big inlet cam t4 at 31psi 478bhp
Same engine with a 14 on exhaust pulls 521 at 31psi
It also pulls 5lb boost more at 3500rpm and has 35lbft more torque everywhere.
That's on a superflo, same day nothing changed bar mapping to suit.
Small cams are not the way forward IMO the only time you really see is developing on the dyno.
The only issue you will have with the big ex cam is it feels a little flatter off boost but at 8.0:1 cr you won't have any issues.
Std ex and a big inlet cam t4 at 31psi 478bhp
Same engine with a 14 on exhaust pulls 521 at 31psi
It also pulls 5lb boost more at 3500rpm and has 35lbft more torque everywhere.
That's on a superflo, same day nothing changed bar mapping to suit.
Small cams are not the way forward IMO the only time you really see is developing on the dyno.
The only issue you will have with the big ex cam is it feels a little flatter off boost but at 8.0:1 cr you won't have any issues.
23-05-2012, 07:53 PM
#141
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Thanks for the useful info again Jimbo 
Looks like you guys can really get the bd14 ex to make the numbers throughout the rev range!
Deffo a marmite cam it seems!
Looks like you guys can really get the bd14 ex to make the numbers throughout the rev range!
Deffo a marmite cam it seems!
Last edited by bigluke200; 23-05-2012 at 07:56 PM.
23-05-2012, 08:04 PM
#143
Back to back test.
Std ex and a big inlet cam t4 at 31psi 478bhp
Same engine with a 14 on exhaust pulls 521 at 31psi
It also pulls 5lb boost more at 3500rpm and has 35lbft more torque everywhere.
That's on a superflo, same day nothing changed bar mapping to suit.
Small cams are not the way forward IMO the only time you really see is developing on the dyno.
The only issue you will have with the big ex cam is it feels a little flatter off boost but at 8.0:1 cr you won't have any issues.
Std ex and a big inlet cam t4 at 31psi 478bhp
Same engine with a 14 on exhaust pulls 521 at 31psi
It also pulls 5lb boost more at 3500rpm and has 35lbft more torque everywhere.
That's on a superflo, same day nothing changed bar mapping to suit.
Small cams are not the way forward IMO the only time you really see is developing on the dyno.
The only issue you will have with the big ex cam is it feels a little flatter off boost but at 8.0:1 cr you won't have any issues.
Thanks.Lee.
23-05-2012, 09:44 PM
#144
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.. However, I think it was around a genuine 350Bhp, as it was a very very quick car in the real world, with the 48. it came on boost very quickly at about 2700Rpm, then at about 5k it seemed to come on cam & pulled hard again, and felt much nicer at high RPM than a car running std exhaust cams?
24-05-2012, 09:15 AM
#146
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Back to back test.
Std ex and a big inlet cam t4 at 31psi 478bhp
Same engine with a 14 on exhaust pulls 521 at 31psi
It also pulls 5lb boost more at 3500rpm and has 35lbft more torque everywhere.
That's on a superflo, same day nothing changed bar mapping to suit.
Small cams are not the way forward IMO the only time you really see is developing on the dyno.
The only issue you will have with the big ex cam is it feels a little flatter off boost but at 8.0:1 cr you won't have any issues.
Std ex and a big inlet cam t4 at 31psi 478bhp
Same engine with a 14 on exhaust pulls 521 at 31psi
It also pulls 5lb boost more at 3500rpm and has 35lbft more torque everywhere.
That's on a superflo, same day nothing changed bar mapping to suit.
Small cams are not the way forward IMO the only time you really see is developing on the dyno.
The only issue you will have with the big ex cam is it feels a little flatter off boost but at 8.0:1 cr you won't have any issues.
If your on a std ex cam you have to adjust the timing to suit plus increase boost if needed also i recomend it with the inlet above that i mentioned which changes things yet again..the 280.433..
Just because you took a cam out and adjusted the fueling on one engine jimbo doesnt mean things dont work because believe me iv taken many an uprated ex cam out for people to make massive improvements and thats in real life terms on the road and in the car on the rollers..
Its danny by the way..
Yesterday i was posting on jds account i now have my own so hi!!
cheers danny
24-05-2012, 10:45 AM
#148
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What are you on about?
When removing a bigger ex cam from the equation and keeping the same cam timing iv experienced the same thing as it throws the whole map out..
If all is adjusted accordingly after the cam swap its clear to see the improvments..
So sorry dont get your point??if im missing something or were on a diff page from what iv just explained please tell??
cheers danny
24-05-2012, 10:49 AM
#149
He said the engine was running more boost with the bigger ex cam
What are you on about?
When removing a bigger ex cam from the equation and keeping the same cam timing iv experienced the same thing as it throws the whole map out..
If all is adjusted accordingly after the cam swap its clear to see the improvments..
So sorry dont get your point??if im missing something or were on a diff page from what iv just explained please tell??
cheers danny
What are you on about?
When removing a bigger ex cam from the equation and keeping the same cam timing iv experienced the same thing as it throws the whole map out..
If all is adjusted accordingly after the cam swap its clear to see the improvments..
So sorry dont get your point??if im missing something or were on a diff page from what iv just explained please tell??
cheers danny
Think about it... If the engine processed more air, from the same turbocharger and wategate actuator, what would happen to your boost?
24-05-2012, 10:55 AM
#150
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You suggested to Jim that he was bound to have more power and torque everywhere as he had an extra 5psi. I am just pointing out that a boost gauge reading is somewhat pointless when messing with cams as quite often, the reason the boost reading has gone UP is because the engine is less efficient.
Think about it... If the engine processed more air, from the same turbocharger and wategate actuator, what would happen to your boost?
Think about it... If the engine processed more air, from the same turbocharger and wategate actuator, what would happen to your boost?
Im sure jim will prob come on and say they made all the relevant changes and got the best from the engine but i know for a fact a well specced t4 powered car with a 16 inlet and std ex can still do 500 hp because iv seen it a lot of times..it also 100% makes for a better driven car although im not debating it does lose around 25-30 hp at the top due to the revs holding on longer...
cheers danny
24-05-2012, 10:59 AM
#151
Yeah i see what your saying and of course more boost in the wrong app can make less power so your right its a sweeping statement but my point in the argument is you would still have to make the right changes and not just change cam and fuelling..
Im sure jim will prob come on and say they made all the relevant changes and got the best from the engine but i know for a fact a well specced t4 powered car with a 16 inlet and std ex can still do 500 hp because iv seen it a lot of times..it also 100% makes for a better driven car although im not debating it does lose around 25-30 hp at the top due to the revs holding on longer...
cheers danny
Im sure jim will prob come on and say they made all the relevant changes and got the best from the engine but i know for a fact a well specced t4 powered car with a 16 inlet and std ex can still do 500 hp because iv seen it a lot of times..it also 100% makes for a better driven car although im not debating it does lose around 25-30 hp at the top due to the revs holding on longer...
cheers danny
2 well known examples...
24-05-2012, 11:04 AM
#152
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Yeah and lees cossie shocked everyone when hes was so quick of the line due to grip but also due to the fact it had so much useable torque..
I take it the mapping and cams and timing was down to you then??
Everyone back then would only use at least a bd14 with their t4 engines!!including me!!
As you know the cam timming and of course the fuelling and mapping is very different when using the std ex cam so you know where im coming from..
The 280.433 is my new inlet of choice and is good for upro 600hp with a std ex its awesome specially on the gt series turbos..
My race engine has got even bigger lift and i run a 290 inlet and a 280 exhaust..hope its as good as im expecting with the right timing??
cheers danny
I take it the mapping and cams and timing was down to you then??
Everyone back then would only use at least a bd14 with their t4 engines!!including me!!
As you know the cam timming and of course the fuelling and mapping is very different when using the std ex cam so you know where im coming from..
The 280.433 is my new inlet of choice and is good for upro 600hp with a std ex its awesome specially on the gt series turbos..
My race engine has got even bigger lift and i run a 290 inlet and a 280 exhaust..hope its as good as im expecting with the right timing??
cheers danny
24-05-2012, 11:15 AM
#154
We built the engines too mate. The 3door engine was originally built by me personally for a different owner called Doug (another PF member) who then took Lees old Saph in part ex for it.
Lee later started to play with the engine in that car himself himself, with varying degrees of success. Not sure whatever happened to that car actually, not seen Lee for ages.
Those £20 caravan towing assisters we fitted really did work well. ROFLOL
Lee later started to play with the engine in that car himself himself, with varying degrees of success. Not sure whatever happened to that car actually, not seen Lee for ages.
hes was so quick of the line due to grip
Last edited by Stu @ M Developments; 24-05-2012 at 11:20 AM.
24-05-2012, 11:43 AM
#156
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24-05-2012, 11:44 AM
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We built the engines too mate. The 3door engine was originally built by me personally for a different owner called Doug (another PF member) who then took Lees old Saph in part ex for it.
Lee later started to play with the engine in that car himself himself, with varying degrees of success. Not sure whatever happened to that car actually, not seen Lee for ages.
Those £20 caravan towing assisters we fitted really did work well. ROFLOL
Lee later started to play with the engine in that car himself himself, with varying degrees of success. Not sure whatever happened to that car actually, not seen Lee for ages.
Those £20 caravan towing assisters we fitted really did work well. ROFLOL
cheers danny
24-05-2012, 04:59 PM
#158
Danny the engine isn't e best (was another tuners) it has too small ports and I agree 500bhp is absolutely 100% possible on a std exhaust cam.
For example if this was a good engine it would have made 500+ on std ex and with the 14 535bhp but it's not so both figures are down.
The 5lb extra boost was where it pulled more.
3500 max boost on std ex cam was 5psi lower than max boost pulled by the 14ex cam at 3500rpm. As was the torque at that point and every per point through the rev range.
A std exhaust cam strangles engines, period, played with or not, for torque and outright power a bigger pair is where it's at.
Like I say the only bit you loose out on is the off boost driveability but at 8:1 and mainly being a drag/hard use engine I would go with a big pair of cams.
For example if this was a good engine it would have made 500+ on std ex and with the 14 535bhp but it's not so both figures are down.
The 5lb extra boost was where it pulled more.
3500 max boost on std ex cam was 5psi lower than max boost pulled by the 14ex cam at 3500rpm. As was the torque at that point and every per point through the rev range.
A std exhaust cam strangles engines, period, played with or not, for torque and outright power a bigger pair is where it's at.
Like I say the only bit you loose out on is the off boost driveability but at 8:1 and mainly being a drag/hard use engine I would go with a big pair of cams.
