VAG people AGU/BAM etc
14-12-2010, 03:25 PM
#1
VAG people AGU/BAM etc
Still gathering info for the clio im building next year, so any input appreciated 
From some asking about it would appear that the AGU lump is generally considered a good option as its got better flowing head etc.
What sort of power are the standard internals good for?
What sort of power is the standard turbo good for? (im guessing not much as its only a 150bhp car!)
From some asking about it would appear that the AGU lump is generally considered a good option as its got better flowing head etc.
What sort of power are the standard internals good for?
What sort of power is the standard turbo good for? (im guessing not much as its only a 150bhp car!)
14-12-2010, 03:28 PM
#2
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
Agu lump is very good and people are running 300-350 on standard internals.
Ko3 turbo is maxed out around 200bhp.The later turbo commonly known as a ko3s will max out around 240
Ko3 turbo is maxed out around 200bhp.The later turbo commonly known as a ko3s will max out around 240
14-12-2010, 03:29 PM
#3
Boost addict
im sure the internals are good for around 300bhp, depending on what turbo you have on there with it being 150bhp id say its k03 so about 200 k03s about 230, k04 around 270-280
14-12-2010, 03:32 PM
#4
Rods and valves i believe are weak links
As above re-turbo choice.
There is also K04-001 that will do about 260bhp and will bolt onto K03 manifold.
Other otions is the BAM manifold and K04-023 (i think) turbo that will do about 280bhp.
After this you will be looking at custom manifolds and turbo's, might be worth giving Martin (Reyland) a call as he has experiance with these engines as has one in his Rover project.
As above re-turbo choice.
There is also K04-001 that will do about 260bhp and will bolt onto K03 manifold.
Other otions is the BAM manifold and K04-023 (i think) turbo that will do about 280bhp.
After this you will be looking at custom manifolds and turbo's, might be worth giving Martin (Reyland) a call as he has experiance with these engines as has one in his Rover project.
14-12-2010, 03:35 PM
#5
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Agu engine has the best head out of all..very large ports..
A lad i know has one in his mk2 golf with a jabba exhaust manifold and a scoobie IHI turbo and green injectors with jabbasport map and was about 350ish ....
He now put bigger turbo and injectors and S3 pistons for over 400...
The standard exhaust manifold is very restrictive is about 1/3rd smaller than the ports on the head but the jabbasprot one is full size and they will machine it to suit the turbo you want to use..
A lad i know has one in his mk2 golf with a jabba exhaust manifold and a scoobie IHI turbo and green injectors with jabbasport map and was about 350ish ....
He now put bigger turbo and injectors and S3 pistons for over 400...
The standard exhaust manifold is very restrictive is about 1/3rd smaller than the ports on the head but the jabbasprot one is full size and they will machine it to suit the turbo you want to use..
14-12-2010, 03:35 PM
#6
Do the later k04 turbos fit the AGU manifold?
Or if not will the later manifold fit the AGU head?
300bhp would be fine TBH, not looking for big power anyway
Ive heard the rods are a weak point in general, i'd be wanting to rev it hard as well ideally, so for that reason as well its probably worth considering a rod swap
what about things like downpipes, are they all good for 300bhp or so, or is it a case of the later k04 ones are better etc? (not that im even sure yet if I can use one in my clio as there isnt much space!)
Or if not will the later manifold fit the AGU head?
300bhp would be fine TBH, not looking for big power anyway
Ive heard the rods are a weak point in general, i'd be wanting to rev it hard as well ideally, so for that reason as well its probably worth considering a rod swap
what about things like downpipes, are they all good for 300bhp or so, or is it a case of the later k04 ones are better etc? (not that im even sure yet if I can use one in my clio as there isnt much space!)
14-12-2010, 03:37 PM
#7
The scooby turbo, does that bolt straight up or is it on an aftermarket manifold?
Im keen to use as many standard parts as possible, as it tends to mean good availability and lower costs, but I dont mind what cars they are standard on.
So if there is a standard agu manifold that takes a standard wrx turbo, thats the sort of thing that is ideal, as so readily available.
Im keen to use as many standard parts as possible, as it tends to mean good availability and lower costs, but I dont mind what cars they are standard on.
So if there is a standard agu manifold that takes a standard wrx turbo, thats the sort of thing that is ideal, as so readily available.
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14-12-2010, 03:47 PM
#8
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No i said in the post jabbasport manifold...and if you buy one you just tell them what turbo you want to use and they suppy the turbo to suit..He went with the ihi turbo as they were cheap as chips and made the power he wanted.....but like i said above the standard Manifold was very restrictive...Which in his case was a audi A3 as thats what the engine came out of...
14-12-2010, 04:23 PM
#9
Ah, sorry mate, didnt realise you HAD to go to a jabbasport manifold, I thought perhaps that was just a direct swap.
cast or tubular?
Im keen to avoid anything thats going to crack all the time
I know T3 ones are readily available too, so could always run a GT30 on it, which IME work fantastically at 300bhp even though they are capable of so much more.
cast or tubular?
Im keen to avoid anything thats going to crack all the time
I know T3 ones are readily available too, so could always run a GT30 on it, which IME work fantastically at 300bhp even though they are capable of so much more.
14-12-2010, 04:30 PM
#10
I'd start with a BAM spec engine if it comes complete, K04 turbo is std and 290hp is achievable. Whatever engine you go for change rodss at the very least, valves too if the budget will allow. We had a rod snap on a 260hp engine that hadn't seen high rpm usage!
14-12-2010, 04:36 PM
#11
Martin, Is the BAM inlet still the same way around?
If not will the AGU one bolt up?
What cars do the BAM come in?
Seems to be the AGU is in the mk4 golf turbos which are available for absolutely peanuts and I would quite like to buy a whole working car so I get the box and the shafts (to prototype with to get proper ones made) etc as well plus other things like the downpipe and front of the exhaust that might be useful
If not will the AGU one bolt up?
What cars do the BAM come in?
Seems to be the AGU is in the mk4 golf turbos which are available for absolutely peanuts and I would quite like to buy a whole working car so I get the box and the shafts (to prototype with to get proper ones made) etc as well plus other things like the downpipe and front of the exhaust that might be useful
Last edited by Chip; 14-12-2010 at 04:38 PM.
14-12-2010, 04:39 PM
#12
Martin, Is the BAM inlet still the same way around?
If not will the AGU one bolt up?
What cars do the BAM come in?
Seems to be the AGU is in the mk4 golf turbos which are available for absolutely peanuts and I would quite like to buy a whole working car so I get the box and the shafts etc as well plus other things like the downpipe and front of the exhaust that might be useful
If not will the AGU one bolt up?
What cars do the BAM come in?
Seems to be the AGU is in the mk4 golf turbos which are available for absolutely peanuts and I would quite like to buy a whole working car so I get the box and the shafts etc as well plus other things like the downpipe and front of the exhaust that might be useful
Last edited by Martin-Hadland; 14-12-2010 at 04:40 PM.
14-12-2010, 04:41 PM
#13
Ah, just seen your edit, lower cr sounds like a good starting point if I am going to use the standard pistons initially, although if im changing rods anyway then its no hassle at all to put pistons in as well.
Last edited by Chip; 14-12-2010 at 04:42 PM.
14-12-2010, 04:42 PM
#14
I normally start with a BAM and change the rods and then stick it on OMEX 600 and job jobbed!
Last edited by Martin-Hadland; 14-12-2010 at 04:44 PM.
14-12-2010, 04:47 PM
#16
Morris has a BAM bottom end with scat rods, an AGU head with Supertech valves, a VF34 turbo on a Jabba manifold and T2 management.
I'm seriously thinking of going GT3071 though....
If you need to know anything that I may be able to help with then just call, I've done quite a few now. Btw BAM comes with DBW throttle but both Cosworth YB and Rover throttles go straight on.
I'm seriously thinking of going GT3071 though....
If you need to know anything that I may be able to help with then just call, I've done quite a few now. Btw BAM comes with DBW throttle but both Cosworth YB and Rover throttles go straight on.
Last edited by Martin-Hadland; 14-12-2010 at 04:49 PM.
14-12-2010, 04:50 PM
#17
Fantastic, thanks mate.
GT3071 does just seem like the most logical choice longer term TBH!
(or better still the GTX3071, I got one of those the other day for a VX220 a mate of mine has and the new wheel looks fantastic!)
GT3071 does just seem like the most logical choice longer term TBH!
(or better still the GTX3071, I got one of those the other day for a VX220 a mate of mine has and the new wheel looks fantastic!)
14-12-2010, 05:02 PM
#19
PassionFord Post Whore!!
best all rounder would be a ihi or gt28 conversion.
As for motors mine is a completly standard ayp 150bhp motor running 350bhp on a ihi conversion, as said above the people tend to have bother with snapping valves but that is normally down to people fucking about with the heads themselves and not getting the collets on correctly.
All depends on how much power and how drivable you want it really
As for motors mine is a completly standard ayp 150bhp motor running 350bhp on a ihi conversion, as said above the people tend to have bother with snapping valves but that is normally down to people fucking about with the heads themselves and not getting the collets on correctly.
All depends on how much power and how drivable you want it really
14-12-2010, 05:03 PM
#20
Another question for any VAG people still tuned in, whats wrong with the passat version to make it worth peanuts?
ebay link
Can see the inlet is different obviously, but must be more to it than that?
ebay link
Can see the inlet is different obviously, but must be more to it than that?
14-12-2010, 05:04 PM
#22
That would make sense then why they are so worthless!
Great there are just so many variations of these engines for spares later on though, the heads and cranks etc are never going to be worth much secondhand when they are in so many cars etc, ie it wont get to a cossie tax state of affairs anytime soon
Last edited by Chip; 14-12-2010 at 05:05 PM.
14-12-2010, 05:07 PM
#24
That was my first intention mate yes, as I do like same make car / same make engine, but having looked around at the availability and number of tuning options for both, the Vag lump seems a muh better option and TBH it even fits in the bay more neatly than the megane was does now that I have seen both of them in a mk1!
14-12-2010, 05:18 PM
#28
That was my first intention mate yes, as I do like same make car / same make engine, but having looked around at the availability and number of tuning options for both, the Vag lump seems a muh better option and TBH it even fits in the bay more neatly than the megane was does now that I have seen both of them in a mk1!
So will read with interest what you do to yours.
14-12-2010, 05:36 PM
#29
Advanced PassionFord User
Its been ported a little, Bill at Badger 5 developed a 3in TIP that helps
Full details here http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-f...on-thread.html
Full details here http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-f...on-thread.html
15-12-2010, 03:17 PM
#30
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There are some other benefits over starting with a BAM/AMK, for instance they run wideband lambda as standard, and have EGT sensor and Motronic ME7.5.
They do have electronic throttle though which may cause issues for a conversion.
AGU is on cable throttle but narrowband and no EGT. Its also a much older ECU (ME3.2) which isnt as nice to tune.
BAM/AMK have small port heads, but for 300hp this really doesnt matter. If you wanted to start looking at 350 upwards then the early large port head can be swapped on.
Rods ARE a weak point. Just because someone says they've run 350hp thru a standard engine doesnt mean they're not, and ive seen otherwise standard engines take out rods. For the Ł300 they cost, its silly not to just stick a set in.
Passat and A4 engines are more or less the same mechanically. Its the manifolds and anciliaries that differ. Inlet points to the side, and the turbo is mounted 180degrees out. Presumably various pipework etc will also differ due to the longitudinal installation. The bellhousings are the same, although the flywheel/clutch assy is not.
johnny: Wellys car (330hp hybrid K04) was using an 034 motorsport manifold, which disintegrated about 2 weeks after it was fitted. He lost about 35hp going back to the original K04 manifold.
They do have electronic throttle though which may cause issues for a conversion.
AGU is on cable throttle but narrowband and no EGT. Its also a much older ECU (ME3.2) which isnt as nice to tune.
BAM/AMK have small port heads, but for 300hp this really doesnt matter. If you wanted to start looking at 350 upwards then the early large port head can be swapped on.
Rods ARE a weak point. Just because someone says they've run 350hp thru a standard engine doesnt mean they're not, and ive seen otherwise standard engines take out rods. For the Ł300 they cost, its silly not to just stick a set in.
Passat and A4 engines are more or less the same mechanically. Its the manifolds and anciliaries that differ. Inlet points to the side, and the turbo is mounted 180degrees out. Presumably various pipework etc will also differ due to the longitudinal installation. The bellhousings are the same, although the flywheel/clutch assy is not.
johnny: Wellys car (330hp hybrid K04) was using an 034 motorsport manifold, which disintegrated about 2 weeks after it was fitted. He lost about 35hp going back to the original K04 manifold.
Last edited by Turbo Transit; 15-12-2010 at 03:19 PM.
15-12-2010, 03:25 PM
#31
Thanks Kevin.
I wont be using the management anyway, I will be going straight onto aftermarket, so I have no real interest in the sensors and motronic version etc.
Was talking to TankMike off here last night and I made the same comment about the head ports, if they are upto the power I need on the BAM lump then no real advantage in swapping to bigger ones, will just lose me bottom end torque and gain me nothing useful anyway on the standard K04 turbo by the sounds of it!
I know what you mean about rods, a lot of these cheap cast rods (XE ones being one that me and you are both familiar with of course) are just a total lottery in terms of what they can handle due to the varying production standards of them, so its a case of they probably are a 350bhp capable rod if you get lucky with the right 4 of them, but you might see nowhere near that on 1 of another set!
Another question while we are looking at different engine variations, I noticed that the AHP 1600 block is 81mm bore as well (its just destroked) and it is made of aluminium instead of cast iron, is this a popular swap to save weight?
Are there any diadvantages to using it from a performance point of view (ie is it weak) or is it just the fact that iron is so much better for noise that saw most VAG engines in the EA113 series on the iron block instead?
If I could save weight on the block, it would certainly be something I would like to do, and if im pulling the bottom end apart to do rods anyway its no real extra hassle to swap the block too while the head is off!
I wont be using the management anyway, I will be going straight onto aftermarket, so I have no real interest in the sensors and motronic version etc.
Was talking to TankMike off here last night and I made the same comment about the head ports, if they are upto the power I need on the BAM lump then no real advantage in swapping to bigger ones, will just lose me bottom end torque and gain me nothing useful anyway on the standard K04 turbo by the sounds of it!
I know what you mean about rods, a lot of these cheap cast rods (XE ones being one that me and you are both familiar with of course) are just a total lottery in terms of what they can handle due to the varying production standards of them, so its a case of they probably are a 350bhp capable rod if you get lucky with the right 4 of them, but you might see nowhere near that on 1 of another set!
Another question while we are looking at different engine variations, I noticed that the AHP 1600 block is 81mm bore as well (its just destroked) and it is made of aluminium instead of cast iron, is this a popular swap to save weight?
Are there any diadvantages to using it from a performance point of view (ie is it weak) or is it just the fact that iron is so much better for noise that saw most VAG engines in the EA113 series on the iron block instead?
If I could save weight on the block, it would certainly be something I would like to do, and if im pulling the bottom end apart to do rods anyway its no real extra hassle to swap the block too while the head is off!
Last edited by Chip; 15-12-2010 at 03:27 PM.
15-12-2010, 03:37 PM
#34
PPS
The A4/Passat engines, are they K03 or K04?
Pipework being different to the AGU etc is of no consequence to me seeing that its going in a clio so going to be a case of all custom whatever I do anyway, but if the turbo is mounted so that it sits futher from the block that could be an issue as I am anticipating that I will have clearance issues as it is!
The A4/Passat engines, are they K03 or K04?
Pipework being different to the AGU etc is of no consequence to me seeing that its going in a clio so going to be a case of all custom whatever I do anyway, but if the turbo is mounted so that it sits futher from the block that could be an issue as I am anticipating that I will have clearance issues as it is!
15-12-2010, 03:38 PM
#35
I suspect im going to need to fabricate a downpipe (well correction I'll tack it up and get my mate Dewis to fabricate it, lol) anyway just for clearance, but I'll know more in the summer when I actually get an engine into the bay I guess!
15-12-2010, 03:43 PM
#36
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Not really sure theres any point going standalone with your suggested power goals etc... Given the ECU generally comes with the engine for free mapped up and ready to go? Its also got some pretty powerful logging interfaces as standard and means you retain all the OEM failsafe maps and redundancy, as well as nice fault logging.
Never heard of anyone swapping into an alloy block at all, they might not even be the same family.
APT is a cast iron 1.8 NA engine fitted to A4's, so thats not the right engine code for the alloy 1.6 you mention!
One thing you NEED to check for with these engines is sludge. Partly due to VAG's stupid 10w40 semi-synth oil spec for earlier engines coupled with retard garages and VAG's later long life service interval, means that a lot of 1.8T's end up sludged up and have serious oil pressure issues. No-one really knows exactly what causes it, but its generally accepted that tardy oil changes dont help. I suspect that a lot of longlife cars have the wrong oil put in them, and probably a percentage of owners who stretch the intervals out too.
Ideally what you want is an engine thats never been on longlife, and always had fully synth oil changed at sensible intervals, but obviously this can be difficult to find.
A new oil pump is probably a good idea for any engine, as they do get tired when the mileage climbs.
Never heard of anyone swapping into an alloy block at all, they might not even be the same family.
APT is a cast iron 1.8 NA engine fitted to A4's, so thats not the right engine code for the alloy 1.6 you mention!
One thing you NEED to check for with these engines is sludge. Partly due to VAG's stupid 10w40 semi-synth oil spec for earlier engines coupled with retard garages and VAG's later long life service interval, means that a lot of 1.8T's end up sludged up and have serious oil pressure issues. No-one really knows exactly what causes it, but its generally accepted that tardy oil changes dont help. I suspect that a lot of longlife cars have the wrong oil put in them, and probably a percentage of owners who stretch the intervals out too.
Ideally what you want is an engine thats never been on longlife, and always had fully synth oil changed at sensible intervals, but obviously this can be difficult to find.
A new oil pump is probably a good idea for any engine, as they do get tired when the mileage climbs.
15-12-2010, 03:45 PM
#37
Boost addict
honestly mate its a mod well worth doing and if your thinking of upgrading the exhaust manifold also then its a no brainer, my bros is only on the baby k03 atm remapped with the downpipe/de cat and a panel filter and its such a strong engine i cant imagine what one is like with 300bhp bet they fly
15-12-2010, 03:49 PM
#39
Kevin, ah you have now seem my edit to AHP not an APT that is the 1600, the APT is indeed the A4 one which was why it was in my mind, but it was a typo that I edited about 2 mins later when I read it back but you must have opened the thread in between.
I guess if no one has done in it then in a scene as massive as the VW one (where people like doing stuff just to be different so would do it "just because") then it probably isnt realistic for some reason.
I'll double check that code with my mate who was on about them, im pretty sure thats what he said but I might have remembered it wrong, its an N/A 1.6 though and has an 81mm bore i am sure on that much
I guess if no one has done in it then in a scene as massive as the VW one (where people like doing stuff just to be different so would do it "just because") then it probably isnt realistic for some reason.
I'll double check that code with my mate who was on about them, im pretty sure thats what he said but I might have remembered it wrong, its an N/A 1.6 though and has an 81mm bore i am sure on that much
Last edited by Chip; 15-12-2010 at 03:50 PM.
15-12-2010, 03:51 PM
#40
Not really sure theres any point going standalone with your suggested power goals etc... Given the ECU generally comes with the engine for free mapped up and ready to go? Its also got some pretty powerful logging interfaces as standard and means you retain all the OEM failsafe maps and redundancy, as well as nice fault logging.