Intercoolers, and the effect they can have
#1
Intercoolers, and the effect they can have
Just thought this might interest some people, its a correction factor used by many rolling roads as this is believed to be a reasonabley accurate conversion equation for different temperatures, its known as SAE J1349:
So on a 400bhp @25 degrees theoretical @990mb atmospheric pressure engine you would expect to see (assuming pressure stays the same):
396bhp @ 30 degrees intake temp (4bhp lost from theoretical on a good cooler)
381bhp @ 50 degrees intake temp (another 15bhp lost versus good cooler)
368bhp @ 70 degrees intake temp (another 28bhp lost versus good cooler)
And thats assuming that the different coolers flow air as freely as each other, if you start getting a flow restriction as well on the smaller/worse intercooler then this can easily be a far bigger difference.
Easy to see why most tuners bang on about the massive importance of a good intercooler!
So on a 400bhp @25 degrees theoretical @990mb atmospheric pressure engine you would expect to see (assuming pressure stays the same):
396bhp @ 30 degrees intake temp (4bhp lost from theoretical on a good cooler)
381bhp @ 50 degrees intake temp (another 15bhp lost versus good cooler)
368bhp @ 70 degrees intake temp (another 28bhp lost versus good cooler)
And thats assuming that the different coolers flow air as freely as each other, if you start getting a flow restriction as well on the smaller/worse intercooler then this can easily be a far bigger difference.
Easy to see why most tuners bang on about the massive importance of a good intercooler!
Last edited by Chip; 20-10-2010 at 09:04 AM.
#2
V6 Ka of Love
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: South Wales
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What's the general intake temp an intercooled YB engine would run when moving? The equation's 1:1 ratio is @ 25°C so keeping them below that will increase power would it not i.e. 4bhp increase @ 20°C?
Last edited by Shonky; 20-10-2010 at 10:21 AM.
#3
Shonky, yes if you can get the temp below 25 then the correction factor on the dyno will subtract power rather than add it (ie you are gaining an advantage from going colder)
40 degrees is about par for the course in general if you wanted to pluck a figure, but it really does depend on the ambient temp and the boost and the turbo and the intercooler etc.
40 degrees is about par for the course in general if you wanted to pluck a figure, but it really does depend on the ambient temp and the boost and the turbo and the intercooler etc.
#5
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 696
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Trending Topics
#9
BANNED
BANNED
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 12,483
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chip, while we are on the subject....
As you know, dyno's take an air correction measurement and this is always the ambient air temp of the dyno cell or air temperature going into the air entry point of the engine.
Now.. I have always thought this was ok for N/A cars as the air temperature actually going into the combustion process is about the same...but on turbo cars it isnt as the turbo upsets the air density into the engine by adding heat generated from compression.
Imagine the power levels if this sensor was placed after the turbo..LOL
Can you see what I am getting at ?
As you know, dyno's take an air correction measurement and this is always the ambient air temp of the dyno cell or air temperature going into the air entry point of the engine.
Now.. I have always thought this was ok for N/A cars as the air temperature actually going into the combustion process is about the same...but on turbo cars it isnt as the turbo upsets the air density into the engine by adding heat generated from compression.
Imagine the power levels if this sensor was placed after the turbo..LOL
Can you see what I am getting at ?
#10
Well yes of course that would send power up massively but falsely so as the probe needs to be reading the point at which it first enters the system, which is at the air filter not at the inlet manifold, would just be a total nonsense there, you may as well stick it in a cup of tea
#15
PassionFord Post Troll
its very simple, the cooler the air entering the engine (post turbo) the denser it is and therefore the more fuel you can inject and the more power the engine will make.
simples
though HUGE intercoolers can increase turbo lag as theres a greater volume to pressurize so as with everything in life its a compromise.
simples
though HUGE intercoolers can increase turbo lag as theres a greater volume to pressurize so as with everything in life its a compromise.
#17
though HUGE intercoolers can increase turbo lag as theres a greater volume to pressurize so as with everything in life its a compromise.
#18
PassionFord Post Troll
it is a nice calculation and i do agree with you its nice to see actual figures, will even shock some poeple and make them realise how important intercoolers are AND the effect heat soak can have when you badly possition an open cone filter. hence the reason i run a pannel filter with uprated cold air feed in my focus.
your prob right too with the lag vs intercooler size but i've not had the oportunity yet to play with different sized coolers so the differences are prob very minimal.
your prob right too with the lag vs intercooler size but i've not had the oportunity yet to play with different sized coolers so the differences are prob very minimal.
#21
It also proves that if your car has already made good power at a given act and you dont ever see it rise over this or atleast often then there isnt any need for a better cooler..
cheers danny
cheers danny
#23
#25
PassionFord Post Troll
it is a nice calculation and i do agree with you its nice to see actual figures, will even shock some poeple and make them realise how important intercoolers are AND the effect heat soak can have when you badly possition an open cone filter. hence the reason i run a pannel filter with uprated cold air feed in my focus.
your prob right too with the lag vs intercooler size but i've not had the oportunity yet to play with different sized coolers so the differences are prob very minimal.
your prob right too with the lag vs intercooler size but i've not had the oportunity yet to play with different sized coolers so the differences are prob very minimal.
found it, https://passionford.com/forum/ford-s...teresting.html
Last edited by jammerrs; 25-10-2010 at 08:51 PM.
#26
PassionFord Post Troll
you need to read a thread tabatha did a while ago about heat soak......very suprising results tbh
found it, https://passionford.com/forum/ford-s...teresting.html
found it, https://passionford.com/forum/ford-s...teresting.html
if i was to go open cone i'd have to move the battery to where the air box is, not a big job, and fit the cone just bellow where the battery was and pipe it accordingly. cant be arsed to do that at the moment though.
#28
PassionFord Regular
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: cornwall
Posts: 422
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
#29
Then imo its the best cooler you can have!!!
Get an act gauge mate and if your always in the 30s when driving its spot on,if it goes in the 40s when driving then id say you need a better cooler but i can gaurantee you it will always be plenty good enough for the job..
cheers danny
Get an act gauge mate and if your always in the 30s when driving its spot on,if it goes in the 40s when driving then id say you need a better cooler but i can gaurantee you it will always be plenty good enough for the job..
cheers danny
#30
PassionFord Post Troll
haha dont worry mate its not a prob. if i moved the battery and routed a decent open cone i would gain a few bhp but i'm not sure what i'm doing induction wise. might be going throttle bodies. then i've got the heat soak issue to deal with even more
#31
Turbocharging Technician
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Top secret. Mission:Imposible.
Posts: 3,557
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
#32
Testing the future
it is a nice calculation and i do agree with you its nice to see actual figures, will even shock some poeple and make them realise how important intercoolers are AND the effect heat soak can have when you badly possition an open cone filter. hence the reason i run a pannel filter with uprated cold air feed in my focus.
your prob right too with the lag vs intercooler size but i've not had the oportunity yet to play with different sized coolers so the differences are prob very minimal.
your prob right too with the lag vs intercooler size but i've not had the oportunity yet to play with different sized coolers so the differences are prob very minimal.
#33
PassionFord Post Troll
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: In my garage, coventry
Posts: 3,065
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
I was thinking the other day ( I know )
whilst looking at my new cooler which has the same core as rods
whilst he has painted his
I was wondering if it will make a difference in the efficency of the cooler
black tends to soak heat up with better efficency
so will it soak up radiated heat more than just leaving it
as it comes with no paint on at all
or will it dissapate heat better
or will there be no significant gains or losses ??
whilst looking at my new cooler which has the same core as rods
whilst he has painted his
I was wondering if it will make a difference in the efficency of the cooler
black tends to soak heat up with better efficency
so will it soak up radiated heat more than just leaving it
as it comes with no paint on at all
or will it dissapate heat better
or will there be no significant gains or losses ??
#34
Turbocharging Technician
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Top secret. Mission:Imposible.
Posts: 3,557
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
what about the effects of an intercooler water spay to help conduct heat away from the cooler and the use of methanol injection?
#35
PassionFord Post Troll
no mate, i was talking about both. if you place your filter in a hot area of the engine bay it will suffer from heat soak meaning the intercooler has got to disipate more heat which it cat do so up go your temps. even more important on an n/a, such as mine, car as theres no cooler.
#40
PassionFord Post Whore!!
I was thinking the other day ( I know )
whilst looking at my new cooler which has the same core as rods
whilst he has painted his
I was wondering if it will make a difference in the efficency of the cooler
black tends to soak heat up with better efficency
so will it soak up radiated heat more than just leaving it
as it comes with no paint on at all
or will it dissapate heat better
or will there be no significant gains or losses ??
whilst looking at my new cooler which has the same core as rods
whilst he has painted his
I was wondering if it will make a difference in the efficency of the cooler
black tends to soak heat up with better efficency
so will it soak up radiated heat more than just leaving it
as it comes with no paint on at all
or will it dissapate heat better
or will there be no significant gains or losses ??
Not tested it to say it makes any diff but the paint needs to be thin, The other thought is to anadise it black this is also said to work.
Mark