Audi Dealer Rip off
08-01-2010, 12:04 PM
#42
just finding my feet
Your assuming the tracking was perfect before and that nothing else needed adjusting....
The equipment only works by following the procedure... Usually the first thing to do is to correctly weight up the vehicle and check the ride height is ok. Then as you change one angle you often find another needs adjusting.
It can easily take a that amount of time. Plus remember you are paying for some time to put the car on a ramp and take it off etc etc
The equipment only works by following the procedure... Usually the first thing to do is to correctly weight up the vehicle and check the ride height is ok. Then as you change one angle you often find another needs adjusting.
It can easily take a that amount of time. Plus remember you are paying for some time to put the car on a ramp and take it off etc etc
are we talking about tracking or corner weighting here ?
sorry but after a shunt we are refering too, changing a few arms and then rechecking,,, most oem cars will have minor ways to adjust the suspension and not have extra things to adjust that will need to be changed on different road surfaces such as a race track,,, its like people who buy KW 3's. full adjustment,,,,,, and use em on the road where they dont get there is too many variables based on different roads,, but again we aint talking about damper setings or corner weighting ect,, just a simple geometry check after a bump which is from what ive seen visual then adjust the tracking with the car on a MOT type ramp, no caster or camber just the steering tie rods to look at
forgive me if in talking about something totally off topic of whats being done,,just this is how i belive its looked at from the main dealers ive worked at and the garages i also see doing work
08-01-2010, 12:08 PM
#43
are we talking about tracking or corner weighting here ?
sorry but after a shunt we are refering too, changing a few arms and then rechecking,,, most oem cars will have minor ways to adjust the suspension and not have extra things to adjust that will need to be changed on different road surfaces such as a race track,,, its like people who buy KW 3's. full adjustment,,,,,, and use em on the road where they dont get there is too many variables based on different roads,, but again we aint talking about damper setings or corner weighting ect,, just a simple geometry check after a bump which is from what ive seen visual then adjust the tracking with the car on a MOT type ramp, no caster or camber just the steering tie rods to look at
forgive me if in talking about something totally off topic of whats being done,,just this is how i belive its looked at from the main dealers ive worked at and the garages i also see doing work
sorry but after a shunt we are refering too, changing a few arms and then rechecking,,, most oem cars will have minor ways to adjust the suspension and not have extra things to adjust that will need to be changed on different road surfaces such as a race track,,, its like people who buy KW 3's. full adjustment,,,,,, and use em on the road where they dont get there is too many variables based on different roads,, but again we aint talking about damper setings or corner weighting ect,, just a simple geometry check after a bump which is from what ive seen visual then adjust the tracking with the car on a MOT type ramp, no caster or camber just the steering tie rods to look at
forgive me if in talking about something totally off topic of whats being done,,just this is how i belive its looked at from the main dealers ive worked at and the garages i also see doing work
I wasnt sure on exact setup of an AUDI so i dunno what exact is adjustable but like my mondeo you can only adjust the tie rods
So if thats same as AUDI all he needed was a simple alignment done
08-01-2010, 12:12 PM
#44
just finding my feet
on my subaru,, well thats TOTALLY different,,,, everything is adjustable almost so takes fucking ages adn the rear arms are also adjustable too but thats far from standard suspension on my shite box
08-01-2010, 12:19 PM
#46
unless they used a hammer like they do in banger racing,,,,,, unless the arms are bolted to the subframe and thats bent,,,, but again thats visual and not gonna show up on most average franchise systems,,,,, "laser"
on my subaru,, well thats TOTALLY different,,,, everything is adjustable almost so takes fucking ages adn the rear arms are also adjustable too but thats far from standard suspension on my shite box
on my subaru,, well thats TOTALLY different,,,, everything is adjustable almost so takes fucking ages adn the rear arms are also adjustable too but thats far from standard suspension on my shite box
08-01-2010, 12:24 PM
#47
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Was asking to ascertain what level of knowledge/skills you have in the motor trade or engineering in general.
Its very easy to say how something cant take very long or could be done when you don't understand the subject or the industry - thats why it has a bearing on this topic IMO
The equipment a lot of body shops use, BMW, VAG and several other manufactures is made by Beissbarth... http://www.beissbarth.co.uk/product_...de=932-500-045
Its not cheap lol so the customer ends up paying for it - as per any equipment in any industry I might add!
Of course you could always go back to string and tyre wear....
Ginge,
Corner weighting is carried out on cars to achieve the correct weights on each wheel and ride height.... The same process applies to production cars, its just many manufactures cars do not need it - Ford for example have simple suspension compared to Audi.
Its very easy to say how something cant take very long or could be done when you don't understand the subject or the industry - thats why it has a bearing on this topic IMO
The equipment a lot of body shops use, BMW, VAG and several other manufactures is made by Beissbarth... http://www.beissbarth.co.uk/product_...de=932-500-045
Its not cheap lol so the customer ends up paying for it - as per any equipment in any industry I might add!
Of course you could always go back to string and tyre wear....
Ginge,
Corner weighting is carried out on cars to achieve the correct weights on each wheel and ride height.... The same process applies to production cars, its just many manufactures cars do not need it - Ford for example have simple suspension compared to Audi.
08-01-2010, 12:28 PM
#48
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The reason these main dealers can 'charge what they want' is because of people like this who just take them to the main dealer because they 'think' they'll do a better job. Its all a load of bollocks. A jobs only as good as the person doing it, and as said, alot of the time, youll find apprentices doing the more 'basic' stuff in main dealers anyway, with the trained techs just checking it over at the end.
The key is to finding a good independant garage who takes pride in theor work and knows their stuff. Theres plenty around, and i think you'll find many of them are from these 'back street garages' who charge a third of the dealer prices and may very well do a far better job.
I wouldnt even take my van to a main dealer, let alone my cossie.
08-01-2010, 12:40 PM
#49
Im a design engineer so im away of how much stuff costs.
Point is the garage round the corner who specialise in wheel alighment etc have said they would charge max £50 to do the exact same as AUDI, its not back to string etc. He didnt even give them authroisation to start the work yet just order the parts and they have went ahead and done it all anyway.
That equipment you have shown me looks basically similiar to the one in my local modern tire service garage
Point is the garage round the corner who specialise in wheel alighment etc have said they would charge max £50 to do the exact same as AUDI, its not back to string etc. He didnt even give them authroisation to start the work yet just order the parts and they have went ahead and done it all anyway.
That equipment you have shown me looks basically similiar to the one in my local modern tire service garage
Last edited by daviddunlop83; 08-01-2010 at 12:43 PM.
08-01-2010, 12:43 PM
#50
...............
My local tyre specialist uses this stuff - http://www.super-tyres.co.uk/supertyresfourwh.html
They set up my Focus RS that has h&r lowered springs, polybushed with adjustable camber rear and adjustable camber/caster front.
Fantastic bit of kit, it's all real time so as you adjust one thing it shows the knock on effect on other parts on the screen. It took them over an hour to get it spot on and cost me £99. It's probably the best money I've spent on the car, it drives superbly now.
They set up my Focus RS that has h&r lowered springs, polybushed with adjustable camber rear and adjustable camber/caster front.
Fantastic bit of kit, it's all real time so as you adjust one thing it shows the knock on effect on other parts on the screen. It took them over an hour to get it spot on and cost me £99. It's probably the best money I've spent on the car, it drives superbly now.
08-01-2010, 12:56 PM
#51
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My local tyre specialist uses this stuff - http://www.super-tyres.co.uk/supertyresfourwh.html
They set up my Focus RS that has h&r lowered springs, polybushed with adjustable camber rear and adjustable camber/caster front.
Fantastic bit of kit, it's all real time so as you adjust one thing it shows the knock on effect on other parts on the screen. It took them over an hour to get it spot on and cost me £99. It's probably the best money I've spent on the car, it drives superbly now.
They set up my Focus RS that has h&r lowered springs, polybushed with adjustable camber rear and adjustable camber/caster front.
Fantastic bit of kit, it's all real time so as you adjust one thing it shows the knock on effect on other parts on the screen. It took them over an hour to get it spot on and cost me £99. It's probably the best money I've spent on the car, it drives superbly now.
You will always find someone who can do the job better than someone else - thats life - but the price this dealer has charged is about the going rate.
People have the choice - and in this case if they did the work with out approval then that is unfair and I too would be very pissed off.
Another point to consider is who picks up the warranty on the work done...
If for example you got the parts fitted by one place (or DIY) and then took it for tracking and expereicne poor tyre wear you will be on your own! With a dealership you have a backup - which is one of the reasons you pay more for their services.
08-01-2010, 12:59 PM
#52
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I dont think you'd have back up in this case where wheel alignment is involved. As said, you could go down the road and knock the alignment back out again, and this is all the dealer would say i bet.
08-01-2010, 01:02 PM
#53
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You have much better chance of good will with a dealer than a tyre depo...
08-01-2010, 01:13 PM
#54
just finding my feet
The hunter stuff is good - easy to use but not its own as good as the manufacture specific stuff.
You will always find someone who can do the job better than someone else - thats life - but the price this dealer has charged is about the going rate.
People have the choice - and in this case if they did the work with out approval then that is unfair and I too would be very pissed off.
Another point to consider is who picks up the warranty on the work done...
If for example you got the parts fitted by one place (or DIY) and then took it for tracking and expereicne poor tyre wear you will be on your own! With a dealership you have a backup - which is one of the reasons you pay more for their services.
You will always find someone who can do the job better than someone else - thats life - but the price this dealer has charged is about the going rate.
People have the choice - and in this case if they did the work with out approval then that is unfair and I too would be very pissed off.
Another point to consider is who picks up the warranty on the work done...
If for example you got the parts fitted by one place (or DIY) and then took it for tracking and expereicne poor tyre wear you will be on your own! With a dealership you have a backup - which is one of the reasons you pay more for their services.
08-01-2010, 01:23 PM
#55
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True...
Tried it? LOL
The point I am making is that some are better than others - and dealerships are on the whole better at warranty/goodwill than other garages.
Alex
Tried it? LOL
The point I am making is that some are better than others - and dealerships are on the whole better at warranty/goodwill than other garages.
Alex
08-01-2010, 01:29 PM
#56
just finding my feet
alex ill have you know i do ALOT of aftermarket warranty issues,,,, and have done for main dealer too and,,,, i change stuff for warranty MORE now as we dont even bother sending it back we just list it and then after theres a few we need to investigate it,,,, but we are ALOT more laid back abour warranty as we dont wanna upset a 4k a month customer over a few hundred quid a few times a year so it pays for its self anyway and included in the pricing if im honest, our suppliers even give us a kick back each year to consider us dealing with warranty stuff
main dealers HAVE to do a amount of warranty work as part of there targets,,, that i dont get but thats why they tend to do "nice" warranty stuff as they need to fill them time slots too
main dealers HAVE to do a amount of warranty work as part of there targets,,, that i dont get but thats why they tend to do "nice" warranty stuff as they need to fill them time slots too
08-01-2010, 01:32 PM
#57
just finding my feet
oh and talking of goodwill, ive changed a E46 wishbone i supplied, a lemforder one too that snapped when the owner mounted a curb at speed,,,,, i changed it as the snap was on a casting imperfection so even though it was a accident i could see it was a air pocket that was the fault and that could have failed at anypoint so IMO was warranty though ill admit,, the fucking garage had the cheek to charge there customer for the new arm but i guess that proves your theory pmsl
08-01-2010, 01:34 PM
#58
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I personally think it all comes down to the attitude of the management, and the individual, regardless of whether its a main delaer, an independant or a 'back street garage'.
08-01-2010, 01:45 PM
#59
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Your in a very different postion to most people - you see things from lots of different angles being involved with parts supply and waranty.
Its good that you take that view on your acocunt holders - would be good if more garages did the same thing! Sadly the more they cut the price of the job the less money there is in the pot so to speak.
Its good that you take that view on your acocunt holders - would be good if more garages did the same thing! Sadly the more they cut the price of the job the less money there is in the pot so to speak.
08-01-2010, 01:48 PM
#60
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Really? Its the other way round from my experience mate. The only good service ive had from a main delaer in the past is from the Lexus dealer. other that, ive found independants far better at resolving problems.
I personally think it all comes down to the attitude of the management, and the individual, regardless of whether its a main delaer, an independant or a 'back street garage'.
I personally think it all comes down to the attitude of the management, and the individual, regardless of whether its a main delaer, an independant or a 'back street garage'.
On your second point I think we agree 100%
08-01-2010, 02:11 PM
#62
The reason these main dealers can 'charge what they want' is because of people like this who just take them to the main dealer because they 'think' they'll do a better job. Its all a load of bollocks. A jobs only as good as the person doing it, and as said, alot of the time, youll find apprentices doing the more 'basic' stuff in main dealers anyway, with the trained techs just checking it over at the end.
The key is to finding a good independant garage who takes pride in theor work and knows their stuff. Theres plenty around, and i think you'll find many of them are from these 'back street garages' who charge a third of the dealer prices and may very well do a far better job.
I wouldnt even take my van to a main dealer, let alone my cossie.
thats how far technology has progressed, I have apprentices doing repairs on vehicle that where not even around when your old ford was new mate.AlexF - your wasting your time, I give up. and yes I represent manufacturer's as well.
08-01-2010, 02:20 PM
#64
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And that doesn't help much when you try to repair something like a Cossie...
Most dont have a clue how thinks work together and would be absolutely screwed without their workshop manuals / TIS / or whatever it's called.
08-01-2010, 02:22 PM
#65
Your exactly right! And that's why most apprentices nowadays only know how to use their diagnose tool/computer and how replace old parts with new ones.
And that doesn't help much when you try to repair something like a Cossie...
Most dont have a clue how thinks work together and would be absolutely screwed without their workshop manuals / TIS / or whatever it's called.
And that doesn't help much when you try to repair something like a Cossie...
Most dont have a clue how thinks work together and would be absolutely screwed without their workshop manuals / TIS / or whatever it's called.
As long as your not including my workshop in that, its fine.
Last edited by markk; 08-01-2010 at 02:23 PM.
08-01-2010, 02:53 PM
#68
PassionFord Post Whore!!
erm no i'm not i used to do them a lot, mainly bodyshops. They are easy, dependent on car its pretty simple. The machine does the thinking. Only starts getting a ball ache when shim's are needed for camber and castor then its still not hard.
i used to do them a lot, mainly bodyshops. They are easy, dependent on car its pretty simple. The machine does the thinking. Only starts getting a ball ache when shim's are needed for camber and castor then its still not hard.
08-01-2010, 03:12 PM
#70
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Did you really think at £80 per hour (as mentioned earlyer) they were only going to charge him half an hours labour? It probably took them that long to get the car on the ramp and set up befoure even starting to adjust it, then road test it, then perhaps re-adjust it and road test it again if it wasnt perfect as you would expect!
08-01-2010, 03:12 PM
#71
PassionFord Post Whore!!
i've also seen a ford modeo been driven in crabbing like a bastard after ford got hold of it. The equipment we used was brand new and modem operated full updates everytime it was turned on and as per using autodata as another reference. So please dont give it the you know shit attitude as on this 1 i do. It is not fucking hard, anyone who says it is doesnt know whats involved. Some bits can be a ball ache but nothing too taxing, tbh the only car i hated doing and i mean despised was the cavalier. Shit to do.
08-01-2010, 03:53 PM
#72
just finding my feet
Did you really think at £80 per hour (as mentioned earlyer) they were only going to charge him half an hours labour? It probably took them that long to get the car on the ramp and set up befoure even starting to adjust it, then road test it, then perhaps re-adjust it and road test it again if it wasnt perfect as you would expect!
it dont take a hour to get a car on a ramp and hook a few mirrors and lasers up on wheels,, if it does then you need to start using both hands and stop using the workshop in the other town and use the one on site pmsl
08-01-2010, 04:15 PM
#73
And i could tell you about main dealers telling folk there car isnt adjustable for castor and camber so need to spend £££'s on all new shit i've also seen a ford modeo been driven in crabbing like a bastard after ford got hold of it. The equipment we used was brand new and modem operated full updates everytime it was turned on and as per using autodata as another reference. So please dont give it the you know shit attitude as on this 1 i do. It is not fucking hard, anyone who says it is doesnt know whats involved. Some bits can be a ball ache but nothing too taxing, tbh the only car i hated doing and i mean despised was the cavalier. Shit to do.
i've also seen a ford modeo been driven in crabbing like a bastard after ford got hold of it. The equipment we used was brand new and modem operated full updates everytime it was turned on and as per using autodata as another reference. So please dont give it the you know shit attitude as on this 1 i do. It is not fucking hard, anyone who says it is doesnt know whats involved. Some bits can be a ball ache but nothing too taxing, tbh the only car i hated doing and i mean despised was the cavalier. Shit to do.you obviously work within the non franchised network of small garages, and despite your shite attitude you may be able to carry out wheel alignment/geometry adjustments, but you will never ever be able to replicate the dealer technology with the latest available equipment and information from the factory, and if i was you autodata would not be a reliable source of data to mention
08-01-2010, 04:24 PM
#74
just finding my feet
you obviously work within the non franchised network of small garages, and despite your shite attitude you may be able to carry out wheel alignment/geometry adjustments, but you will never ever be able to replicate the dealer technology with the latest available equipment and information from the factory, and if i was you autodata would not be a reliable source of data to mention
it just means that some people aint willing to take the time to do the job right and training to use the tools is also very important
08-01-2010, 05:01 PM
#75
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In this day and age pal your cossie is a job for an apprentice thats how far technology has progressed, I have apprentices doing repairs on vehicle that where not even around when your old ford was new mate.
AlexF - your wasting your time, I give up. and yes I represent manufacturer's as well.
thats how far technology has progressed, I have apprentices doing repairs on vehicle that where not even around when your old ford was new mate.AlexF - your wasting your time, I give up. and yes I represent manufacturer's as well.
Theres a difference between a 'mechanic' and a 'fitter'. Most seem to be fitters these days unfortunatly.
Specialists are the way to go with older cars as they work with them day in day out, and most wont be interested in taking it out fro a 'thrash'. Take a cossie to Ford and most will not have a clue where to start with a tricky diagnosis. Give me an old skool mechanic that actually knows his stuff any day. Cheaper and better!
08-01-2010, 05:03 PM
#76
PassionFord Post Whore!!
you obviously work within the non franchised network of small garages, and despite your shite attitude you may be able to carry out wheel alignment/geometry adjustments, but you will never ever be able to replicate the dealer technology with the latest available equipment and information from the factory, and if i was you autodata would not be a reliable source of data to mention
08-01-2010, 05:19 PM
#77
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Id personally say the newer cars are far easier than older cars to diagnose faults and work on. Say an audi with a running problem could probably be found by anyone with the right plug in equipment. Old cars on the other hand with older technology need a bit more thought and knowledge. Not just a plug in computer to rely on.
Theres a difference between a 'mechanic' and a 'fitter'. Most seem to be fitters these days unfortunatly. Specialists are the way to go with older cars as they work with them day in day out, and most wont be interested in taking it out fro a 'thrash'. Take a cossie to Ford and most will not have a clue where to start with a tricky diagnosis. Give me an old skool mechanic that actually knows his stuff any day. Cheaper and better!
Theres a difference between a 'mechanic' and a 'fitter'. Most seem to be fitters these days unfortunatly.
Specialists are the way to go with older cars as they work with them day in day out, and most wont be interested in taking it out fro a 'thrash'. Take a cossie to Ford and most will not have a clue where to start with a tricky diagnosis. Give me an old skool mechanic that actually knows his stuff any day. Cheaper and better!
08-01-2010, 05:37 PM
#78
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08-01-2010, 06:04 PM
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Ive not read all this post but i have my little say.
I am a fully trained Audi technician at a main dealers and i can assure you the wheel alignment is not just a case of putting a set of mirrors and guages on. There is a long process of setting up the equipment first and doing various run out and measurment tests before the actual adjustment. On Q7 4x4's you have to level the air suspension using the 5051 diagnsotic equipment before you can set the equipment up.
We use the beissbath setup with I will say is a very sensitive but accurate piece of kit and majority of Audi's are fully adjustable (toe, camber,caster) with even some models requiring special tools to adjust camber and castor.
As for the quote. Yes its expensive but at the end of the day its an Audi and its german. Its not a 20yr old ford you can get parts for at your local motor factors.
Unfortunatly the parts for Audis are expensive but no dearer than BMW and Mercedes and even Ford to some degree. and coupled with the £100 + labour rate the dealers charge then the cost soon amounts up.
I am a fully trained Audi technician at a main dealers and i can assure you the wheel alignment is not just a case of putting a set of mirrors and guages on. There is a long process of setting up the equipment first and doing various run out and measurment tests before the actual adjustment. On Q7 4x4's you have to level the air suspension using the 5051 diagnsotic equipment before you can set the equipment up.
We use the beissbath setup with I will say is a very sensitive but accurate piece of kit and majority of Audi's are fully adjustable (toe, camber,caster) with even some models requiring special tools to adjust camber and castor.
As for the quote. Yes its expensive but at the end of the day its an Audi and its german. Its not a 20yr old ford you can get parts for at your local motor factors.
Unfortunatly the parts for Audis are expensive but no dearer than BMW and Mercedes and even Ford to some degree. and coupled with the £100 + labour rate the dealers charge then the cost soon amounts up.
08-01-2010, 06:12 PM
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Id personally say the newer cars are far easier than older cars to diagnose faults and work on. Say an audi with a running problem could probably be found by anyone with the right plug in equipment. Old cars on the other hand with older technology need a bit more thought and knowledge. Not just a plug in computer to rely on.
Theres a difference between a 'mechanic' and a 'fitter'. Most seem to be fitters these days unfortunatly. Specialists are the way to go with older cars as they work with them day in day out, and most wont be interested in taking it out fro a 'thrash'. Take a cossie to Ford and most will not have a clue where to start with a tricky diagnosis. Give me an old skool mechanic that actually knows his stuff any day. Cheaper and better!
Theres a difference between a 'mechanic' and a 'fitter'. Most seem to be fitters these days unfortunatly.
Specialists are the way to go with older cars as they work with them day in day out, and most wont be interested in taking it out fro a 'thrash'. Take a cossie to Ford and most will not have a clue where to start with a tricky diagnosis. Give me an old skool mechanic that actually knows his stuff any day. Cheaper and better! But there is no way i can agree with you saying that new cars are easier to diagnose than old cars. A diagnostic machine does not fix you or tell you exactly what is wrong. It is mearly a guide to what area the fault lays with and its down to mechanical and electrical experience and knowledge to actually trace the fault
For example how many old cars use can bus technology compared to todays cars. Yes can bus is ment to be easier to diagnose and save wiring etc, but when virtually every system on the car nowdays is run by this its not as easy to fix and diagnose as you may think.