zetaboostboy522bhp

as above can anyone help or have experience of building fuel systems for track day cars. as some people maybe aware iam building a mk6 4x4 fiesta with a zetec turbo which stands at 500+bhp but we are hoping for more (650bhp) and iam wanting to start buying componets that i can collect while the car is still at the fabricators. ive had a good read about and i think this is how i want my fuel system which is all aeromotive as its one of the best products ive seen and is all jic fitting etc so easy install. i just need to know if theres anything else that needs to be added or taken out of the system. any advice would be welcome as ive only ever fitted a fuel reg and a uprated pump so i aint no expert. i want the fuel system to be rated to aleast 1000bhp incase we decide to run nos aswell
the system will be also mounted in the boot.

heres a gay drawing (arrows show flow direction)



as said above any help would be great also any pics of layouts

cheers paul

Kevin Sharp

iTrader: (3)

after a quick look your return from the fuel reg needs to return to the swirl pot then put a return from top of swirl back to tank

zetaboostboy522bhp

right cheers mate ,whys that ? is that so the swirl pot is always full as i will be running a a1000 as a lift pump so iam sure the swirl pot wont be empty lol , but any help or opinions are much appreciated.

cheers paul

crazycage

it helps keep the pot full at all times

andy escos

iTrader: (1)

would you not be better off using a holley high volume low pressure lift pump from tank to swirl pot & when i was doing my fuel system stu from msd advised me on doing the supply & return lines in dash 8 lines. your return line from your y section is a restriction as you have 2-6,s going into 1 the single section should be as big as or bigger than the 2 together hope this helpshttp://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fuel-Pump-Elec...5ad4444a9bthis would be a good pump cheap to

stevieturbo

I would only return to the swirl tank if your low pressure pump is totally inadequate. Best option is to size properly so you can return to the main tank.

Although I would also add a line from the top of the swirl tank to the main tank, purely as an air bleed.

As for using two A1000 pumps, IMO thats just mental and really not needed. There are dedicated low pressure pumps available that will do that job, at a fraction of the cost. Just check any of the Yank suppliers. You could buy the likes of a 100-140 gph pump for keen prices and it will be a proper lift pump that can suck fuel.
See here http://www.realsteel.co.uk/section6.pdf

Also, from the fuel pump to the Y block or dist block, -8 would be more than ample for your needs, and much easier routed.

You'll also need some dedicated wiring, as the A1000's can draw a lot of current, and maybe a trailer to carry them as they are massive lol.

zetaboostboy522bhp

hi andy thanks for your input matey , the pump youve shown says a max psi of 14 my fuel pressure reg was set at 45 psi when mapped on the dyno , so would that matter if your only using it as a lift pump ?. also the a1000 pump uses -10 inputs and outputs so i would defo need -10 and the jenvey fuel rails are -6 and so is my aeromotive fuel reg both inputs and the return are -6.
also i want to use as little different thread sizes as i can so its as simple as possible
cheers paul

stevieturbo

Your fuel pressure regulator has nothing whatsoever to do with what the low pressure lift pump is doing.

a pair of -6 into a y block then a return -6 is irrelevant.

The single -6 line is more than adequate anyway, and the FPR will cause more of a restriction than any amount of -6 lines or Y blocks. Thats how it works after all !

I would stick with -10 from tank to lift pump though, if you insist on the A1000.

After that -8 would be ample for the swirl supply and supply to the other A1000, as it is no longer only gravity fed due to the lift pump.

Although if you have room, -10 would do no harm.

zetaboostboy522bhp

right so its a preset pressure built in the lift pump then, also what size swirl pot would you recommend ? 1 litre , 2 litre?

cheers paul

stevieturbo

No, the lift pump has no pressure built in whatsoever the same as every fuel pump.. Any restriction placed in front of the pump largely dictates any pressure...ie a FPR, or in your case a swirl tank+hoses+A1000+everything after the A1000.

If the lift pump flows more than everything after it, the swirl tank could end up under some pressure. If it doesnt flow enough, it could run empty at virtually zero pressure.

Although the lift pump may have a safety overpressure cutout should a blockage occur ( or the restriction in front is too great, ie it simply flows too much ).

Its a bit like a hose pipe. Your water mains might have 15 psi pressure available. But when you run a hose does it feel like it ? No...stick your finger over the end and suddenly there may be 15psi in it though.

Size of swirl pot depends entirely on your usage and space available. How big do YOU need it to be ?? How much room do YOU have ? How much fuel will your engine consume ? How long will you be WOT for etc ??

2 litres would be more than enough for even the most powerful cars though.


Although, unless you are doing some serious track usage, you have little need for a swirl tank. As you appear to be opting for a custom tank anyway, it would make more sense just to design a fuel system around a good single tank and single pump setup. It would save a fortune too.

andy escos

iTrader: (1)

the final return in my thaught any way is its to small as when your off boost you have a -10 supplying 2x-6 then to the reg if it cannot return all that unused fuel because of the single -6 hose it will raise your fuel pressure & cause higher fuel emissions & worse fuel economy

adamski frst

IMO that looks massive overkill... you'd get away with -8 pipes feed/tank then split off to -6 to the fuel rails. -8 will supply 1000hp my -6 feed supplys me wih plenty for the 500+hp i am going... you design is right tho and what people have said to change like return to swirl imo is worth while also... the pumps also a massive overkill and very costly, i originally was going to use aeromotive pump also but they require a controller to work correctly.

so i changed over to the bosche pumps and 1 044 will feed 500-550hp so just run 2 pumps and saves you money on buying a aeromotive... the filters are very good tho...

zetaboostboy522bhp

i can get aeromotive a1000 pumps from america for Ł187 + import tax so around the Ł220 mark that why i want to use them ,as bosch 044 pumps are about Ł160 each so makes sense in using the aeromotive pumps.

cheers paul

GARETH T

-10 is Big and as said a bit over the top

JonnyBravo

You don't need to use a high pressure pump though to lift it from the tank IMO

GARETH T

no your right, when you pump into a tank you dont create any pressure, so totally not needed

JonnyBravo

I've always used Facets in the past on NA fuel systems and seen Holleys used on bigger turbo stuff.

I've seem some Sierra race cars running 2 facets though as lift pumps and they flow a LOT.

Aeromotive stuff is total overkill regardless of cost for what you need

stevieturbo

A single -6 line return is plenty. Go look at the hole in the bottom of the FPR and see how small it is.


I still see it as daft using two of those A1000's. Yes they look nice...but they are huge, noisy, and not as reliable as some other setups. And as a lift pump...they must still be fully gravity fed, as they are still a typical efi pump.

GARETH T

just to help you understand your line pressure,
this 45psi (static pressure) will be manifold referenced so when your running 30psi of boost, your line pressure will be
static pressure +boost pressure, so 45+30, so 75psi line pressure

stevieturbo

And dont forget....the A1000 will not perform anywhere near as well as an 044 at inflated pressures.

zetaboostboy522bhp

right so what lift pump can you buy that has -10 fittings as the aeromotive pumps come with -10 as standard and i dont make sense to use -8 to the lift pump , swirl pot etc then -10 to the aeromotive then to the input on the y block etc.
i would like it as simple as possible as for -jic sizes as i really cant be arsed using loads of different thread sizes etc.
i also know that using 2 a1000 pumps is over kill as 1 a1000 pump can do 1000bhp turbod but its just how cheap they are and that all the lines would be the same for pumps and filters etc, but keep it coming as iam always willing to listen to others views and opinions

lets have some pictures of boot installs aswell if anyone is willing to post with what parts where used and what power your running

cheers paul

JonnyBravo

JonnyBravo

RCM Gobstopper Fuel System

FIA spec 26 litre rubber/kevlar bag tank in aluminium cover
Twin Bosch fuel pumps (200 litre per pump)
-8 Goodrich fuel feed pipe
-6 Goodrich fuel return pipe
-6 fuel cooler with cooling fan on return
RCMS 8 injector distribution block
2x SX fuel regulators running at 4 bar static pressure

andrewg

i have two bosch motorsport pumps fed from fuel tank with a sump feeding a rail each then into areomotive reg and back into the sump area with the return a good tank design and pick up is the cheapest, most simple, lot neater, lighter and has no down side i get no surge till its pretty much empty

JonnyBravo

^^^

I think that says enough really.

andrewg

also got -10 pre filters!

JonnyBravo

Are they 909 cable ties Andrew ?

zetaboostboy522bhp

cheers andrew, i take it your pumps are mounted lower than the tank and any piccys would be a great help

cheers paul

JonnyBravo

Just a quick thought as well, as great as that aeromotive stuff looks I have heard a few stories about poor machining on some of it and my mates regulator did have a **** load of swarf inside it.

Looks pretty enough but it wouldn't appear to be best, the 044 pumps would appear to be the motorsport standard

andrewg

no they are just Not For Home Use!

andrewg

they are about level with the bottom of the tank,,you could have them above but wouldn't say you want to go much higher and best kept close as poss

stevieturbo

The pumps already mentioned could be adapted to whatever fittings you want.

But as Andy has shown, a properly designed fuel tank with no external swirl pot is by far the most common sense approach, and certainly the cheapest.

You could get away with a single A1000 that way.

if it was me....I'd still use a pair of 044's though. I'd rather a functional,. reliable fuel system, than one that looks nice with lots of red everywhere...

Which oddly enough....I dumped my A1000 in favour of a pair of 044's a few years ago !

zetaboostboy522bhp

thanks guys , iam not defo going to use aeromotive but for example,
taking andrews picture , using the same tank could you use 1 aeromotive pre filter , 1 a1000 pump , 1 aeromotive filter , then a y block all -10 , then split to 2 -6 fuel lines to the rails and a -6 return ????
as andy says his design looks so much simpler than mine and would save quite abit of money.
what size inlets / outlets on the bosch pumps ,are they 044 ??
i have used a aeromotive reg with no probs but i surpose everyone has bad experiences with all sorts of components.

many thanks everyone for the help as this is a major learning curve!

stevieturbo

-10 to the filter and pump is fine.

Using it on a high pressure side is a waste of time, stupid and pointless, and also harder to route due to the physical size of the hose.

-8 is more than enough. In fact a single -6 line would do you.

044's have an M18x1.5 intake, and M12x1.5 outlet.

powers

Bosch 044 are M18x1.5 and M12x1.5 threads.
Andrewg for the return from the regulator did you use AN8?

zetaboostboy522bhp

what was wrong with the a1000 pump then as i though they was used widely in very high bhp drag cars etc, as i said i would like to hear the good and bad points as i aint gonna buy aeromotive stuff if its not reliable and shit, and to be honest iam one of those people that like things to look as good as they perform , andrews looks very neat to me so that would do , has anyone tried the fuel lab stuff ???

cheers paul

stevieturbo

As already mentioned. They do not perform as well as an 044 at higher fuel pressures.

And their flow data for the pump wasnt overly impressive.....although the same does apply to an 044. I suspect the flaw data they provide is quite conservative.

I flow tested my system pretty much as installed and it certainly flows a lot more than what Bosch claim for an 044 based setup.

The A1000 was also big and bulky, and I wasnt happy with where it was installed, as it took up sapce in my boot. The 044's however were able to fit neatly underneath my tank, which left room for carrying racing tyres in the boot as well as luggage etc.

andrewg

No just -6

gus

iTrader: (1)

a very interesting read

stevieturbo

People just go daft and think they need massive pumps, massive lines, massive everything when it comes to a fuel system.

They just need to build it sensibly. Despite their size...an 044 is a bloody fantastic pump.


The little Walbro's used more so in the JDM world are cheap and cheerful too, and flow very well. They do not perform well at high pressures though.