fuel system designs
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02-01-2010, 10:32 PM
#43
Advanced PassionFord User
this setup by andrew is perfect! just like mine did AH do it andy?.... ZETEC you need to run a sumped tank the pro alloy roller ball type does not work no where near like these designs. people will prob jump on the wagon for me saying that but its true! dave yum had trouble with his at first as it didnt work.. you cant beat the classic installs! all this fancy stuff dosn't ALWAYS work...
03-01-2010, 07:45 PM
#47
He clearly states that the return goes back into the sump, on looking at the photo again i think there is a third hose returning into the back of the sump so i now assume he has a take off for each pump from the sump(left and right connections) and a return into the sump from the regulator (middle, behind sump)
The reason i asked as before weather there is a problem with the fuel heating up is because it will circulate from the sump, around the hot engine bay and back to the sump. I think the idea of using a seperate pump, swirl pot etc is so that the fuel can be returned to the tank away from the take off point to help eliminate the fuel heating up.
If it doesnt cause a problem i agree it has to be the best way to go, perhaps it will only cause a problem on a road car where it may spend a lot of time idleing/off load where there is little fuel usage???
The reason i asked as before weather there is a problem with the fuel heating up is because it will circulate from the sump, around the hot engine bay and back to the sump. I think the idea of using a seperate pump, swirl pot etc is so that the fuel can be returned to the tank away from the take off point to help eliminate the fuel heating up.
If it doesnt cause a problem i agree it has to be the best way to go, perhaps it will only cause a problem on a road car where it may spend a lot of time idleing/off load where there is little fuel usage???
03-01-2010, 08:51 PM
#48
Not heard of this before
What sort of problems can arrise from heated fuel?
My Mk4 golf has a fuel cooler as standard but cannot see a reason as its the only car i have ever had with one fitted.
What sort of problems can arrise from heated fuel?
My Mk4 golf has a fuel cooler as standard but cannot see a reason as its the only car i have ever had with one fitted.
Last edited by Gav Diamond; 03-01-2010 at 08:52 PM.
03-01-2010, 08:58 PM
#49
The issue is at what temperature it becomes a problem ?
Hot fuel can of course contribute to a higher risk of detonation. I guess it would also be pretty bad if it was so hot, that it evaporated instead of remaining a fuel mist in the chamber.
A lot of modern cars run fuel coolers....a lot of diesels oddly.
Many high performance setups will run a fuel cooler. The problem is made worse with small race tanks, and small swirl tanks when people return fuel from the engine to the swirl tank.
Easiest place for the cooler is in the low pressure return line. Any oil cooler type rad will do.
I just used a 9 row oil cooler on mine, although it isnt mounted in an ideal position.
My fuel temps generally stay within 20-30degC anyway when the engine is running. Although my main tank is pretty big. Ive seen as high as 50degC, but thats pumps off, and heat soak from the engine compartment. Once the fuel starts flowing again, temp soon drops.
Hot fuel can of course contribute to a higher risk of detonation. I guess it would also be pretty bad if it was so hot, that it evaporated instead of remaining a fuel mist in the chamber.
A lot of modern cars run fuel coolers....a lot of diesels oddly.
Many high performance setups will run a fuel cooler. The problem is made worse with small race tanks, and small swirl tanks when people return fuel from the engine to the swirl tank.
Easiest place for the cooler is in the low pressure return line. Any oil cooler type rad will do.
I just used a 9 row oil cooler on mine, although it isnt mounted in an ideal position.
My fuel temps generally stay within 20-30degC anyway when the engine is running. Although my main tank is pretty big. Ive seen as high as 50degC, but thats pumps off, and heat soak from the engine compartment. Once the fuel starts flowing again, temp soon drops.
03-01-2010, 09:49 PM
#50
10K+ Poster!!
The RCM car does also run a fuel cooler.
I'd like to know at what point a cooler is required but I guess in most cases its not but it certainly wouldn't hurt it.
I'd like to know at what point a cooler is required but I guess in most cases its not but it certainly wouldn't hurt it.
03-01-2010, 09:58 PM
#51
Advanced PassionFord User
Thread Starter
The issue is at what temperature it becomes a problem ?
Hot fuel can of course contribute to a higher risk of detonation. I guess it would also be pretty bad if it was so hot, that it evaporated instead of remaining a fuel mist in the chamber.
A lot of modern cars run fuel coolers....a lot of diesels oddly.
Many high performance setups will run a fuel cooler. The problem is made worse with small race tanks, and small swirl tanks when people return fuel from the engine to the swirl tank.
Easiest place for the cooler is in the low pressure return line. Any oil cooler type rad will do.
I just used a 9 row oil cooler on mine, although it isnt mounted in an ideal position.
My fuel temps generally stay within 20-30degC anyway when the engine is running. Although my main tank is pretty big. Ive seen as high as 50degC, but thats pumps off, and heat soak from the engine compartment. Once the fuel starts flowing again, temp soon drops.
Hot fuel can of course contribute to a higher risk of detonation. I guess it would also be pretty bad if it was so hot, that it evaporated instead of remaining a fuel mist in the chamber.
A lot of modern cars run fuel coolers....a lot of diesels oddly.
Many high performance setups will run a fuel cooler. The problem is made worse with small race tanks, and small swirl tanks when people return fuel from the engine to the swirl tank.
Easiest place for the cooler is in the low pressure return line. Any oil cooler type rad will do.
I just used a 9 row oil cooler on mine, although it isnt mounted in an ideal position.
My fuel temps generally stay within 20-30degC anyway when the engine is running. Although my main tank is pretty big. Ive seen as high as 50degC, but thats pumps off, and heat soak from the engine compartment. Once the fuel starts flowing again, temp soon drops.
cheers paul
04-01-2010, 01:27 AM
#53
Stevieturbo
Take it you also measure on the low pressure return?
Never thought about this before, may have to measure temps to see what its doing.
You mention earlier in the thread that it is best not to return to the swirl pot, i thought this was done so as to keep a constant level of fuel in there??
Take it you also measure on the low pressure return?
Never thought about this before, may have to measure temps to see what its doing.
You mention earlier in the thread that it is best not to return to the swirl pot, i thought this was done so as to keep a constant level of fuel in there??
Last edited by Gav Diamond; 04-01-2010 at 01:42 AM.
04-01-2010, 07:36 AM
#54
PassionFord Post Troll
if the the tank was enclosed in a boot then i'm sure there may be a heat issue but my tank is external and gets plenty of air and also there will be enough fuel movment in the tank to spread the heat and also my engine bay does not hold a lot of heat as it is fairly open
04-01-2010, 08:32 AM
#56
Stevieturbo
Take it you also measure on the low pressure return?
Never thought about this before, may have to measure temps to see what its doing.
You mention earlier in the thread that it is best not to return to the swirl pot, i thought this was done so as to keep a constant level of fuel in there??
Take it you also measure on the low pressure return?
Never thought about this before, may have to measure temps to see what its doing.
You mention earlier in the thread that it is best not to return to the swirl pot, i thought this was done so as to keep a constant level of fuel in there??
I measure fuel temperature in a manifold before it distributes to the fuel rails. Simply because it was the easiest place to fit the sensor.
People only return to the swirl tank because their chosen lift pump isnt up to doing the job properly.
If the lift pump is capable, then the swirl tank will always remain full anyway.
05-01-2010, 05:54 PM
#57
Advanced PassionFord User
Thread Starter
I THINK IAM GOING TO BUILD A VERY SIMILAR SET UP TO ANDREW G AS ITS A PROVERN DESIGN AND DOESNT NEED A LIFT PUMP / SWIRL POTS ETC AS THIS WILL SAVE ME A FORTUNE AND ALSO THANKS TO SOME VERY GOOD AND INTERESTING INFO FROM STEVIETURBO IAM ALSO USING THE BOSCH PUMPS.
SO IVE DONE ANOTHER GAY DRAWING THAT I THINK IS RIGHT THIS TIME
IF NOT PLEASE PUT ME RIGHT AS IAM GOING TO ORDER SOME PARTS NEXT WEEK
CHEERS PAUL
SO IVE DONE ANOTHER GAY DRAWING THAT I THINK IS RIGHT THIS TIME
IF NOT PLEASE PUT ME RIGHT AS IAM GOING TO ORDER SOME PARTS NEXT WEEK
CHEERS PAUL
05-01-2010, 06:16 PM
#60
Advanced PassionFord User
Thread Starter
I THINK IAM GOING TO RUN A TEMP SENSOR IN THE Y BLOCK OR A MACHINED BIT OF ALLOY
CHEERS PAUL
05-01-2010, 06:30 PM
#61
PassionFord Post Troll
YEH MIGHT DO AS AEROMOTIVE SHIT IS PRETTY EXPENSIVE , I TAKE IT YOUR PUMPS ARE 044 BOSCH PUMPS , CAN YOU TELL ME WHERE YOU GOT THEM AND AND THE FILTERS FROM AND HOW MUCH.
I THINK IAM GOING TO RUN A TEMP SENSOR IN THE Y BLOCK OR A MACHINED BIT OF ALLOY
CHEERS PAUL
I THINK IAM GOING TO RUN A TEMP SENSOR IN THE Y BLOCK OR A MACHINED BIT OF ALLOY
CHEERS PAUL
its bosch motorsport pumps i use same as the ones used in wrc focus i usually buy a load at a time..
with earls pre filters
05-01-2010, 09:44 PM
#62
I'd use the Aeromotive filters as pre filters. And TBH...with a 100micron pre filter...is a secondary filterreally needed ??
I havent used any secondaries on mine and have never had any problems.
Looking at the pic, those Earls prefilters look very small Andy ?
I would prefer the return at the top of the tank as opposed to the bottom.
And how you're going to manage 4 pipes into a Y block is beyond me lol.
A single 1/2" line from pumps to dist block will be far bigger than you'll ever need. Using 2 supply lines to the front is senseless.
In fact, even a single -6 line from pumps to Y block would be adequate.
I havent used any secondaries on mine and have never had any problems.
Looking at the pic, those Earls prefilters look very small Andy ?
I would prefer the return at the top of the tank as opposed to the bottom.
And how you're going to manage 4 pipes into a Y block is beyond me lol.
A single 1/2" line from pumps to dist block will be far bigger than you'll ever need. Using 2 supply lines to the front is senseless.
In fact, even a single -6 line from pumps to Y block would be adequate.
06-01-2010, 03:56 AM
#63
Zetecboostboy
Your picture doesn't make sense to me mate.
You have 2 lines going into a Y block which is ok but then you have 2 coming out??
I did a search for a Y block and 2 go in and 1 comes out.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=380169770718
Your picture doesn't make sense to me mate.
You have 2 lines going into a Y block which is ok but then you have 2 coming out??
I did a search for a Y block and 2 go in and 1 comes out.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=380169770718
06-01-2010, 06:09 PM
#65
How they can say that returning hot fuel to a small vessel wont contribute to returning hot fuel back to the rails again is beyond me.
No matter how they try and explain otherwise, it will heat the fuel.
the only reason to return fuel like they picture, is if your primary pump is inferior.
No matter how they try and explain otherwise, it will heat the fuel.
the only reason to return fuel like they picture, is if your primary pump is inferior.
06-01-2010, 06:16 PM
#66
Advanced PassionFord User
Thread Starter
yeh soz lads thats a typo on the y block 
, it was meant to be a piece of machined alloy with 2 in 2 out.
am i nearly getting there?
so take 2 filters out and mount the return to the top of the tank and iam there. would it be a good idea to fit a tube inside the tank that drops the returned fuel into the sump or would this cause probs.
as i said i aint no expert and would rather listen to people that have been there and done that if you know what i mean
cheers paul
, it was meant to be a piece of machined alloy with 2 in 2 out. am i nearly getting there?
so take 2 filters out and mount the return to the top of the tank and iam there. would it be a good idea to fit a tube inside the tank that drops the returned fuel into the sump or would this cause probs.
as i said i aint no expert and would rather listen to people that have been there and done that if you know what i mean
cheers paul
06-01-2010, 06:54 PM
#67
Using seperate lines from each pump, into an H block or whatever other crazy thing you have in mind before going to the rails is just ....crazy.
Why add complication to a very simple thing ?
One pipe.
Why add complication to a very simple thing ?
One pipe.
06-01-2010, 08:51 PM
#68
PassionFord Post Troll
yeh soz lads thats a typo on the y block , it was meant to be a piece of machined alloy with 2 in 2 out.
am i nearly getting there?
so take 2 filters out and mount the return to the top of the tank and iam there. would it be a good idea to fit a tube inside the tank that drops the returned fuel into the sump or would this cause probs.
as i said i aint no expert and would rather listen to people that have been there and done that if you know what i mean
cheers paul
, it was meant to be a piece of machined alloy with 2 in 2 out. am i nearly getting there?
so take 2 filters out and mount the return to the top of the tank and iam there. would it be a good idea to fit a tube inside the tank that drops the returned fuel into the sump or would this cause probs.
as i said i aint no expert and would rather listen to people that have been there and done that if you know what i mean
cheers paul
Last edited by andrewg; 06-01-2010 at 08:55 PM.
06-01-2010, 08:59 PM
#69
PassionFord Post Troll
if you are using two pumps and two rails i would have two lines as it will be less fittings and wouldn't bother with your y H block,,
and if you are fussy about heat put temp sender in the sump and do test with and without a cooler on the return
and if you are fussy about heat put temp sender in the sump and do test with and without a cooler on the return
06-01-2010, 09:01 PM
#71
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Using 2 A1000's is crazy, a walbro in tank will be quieter, draw less current, warm the fuel up less and be sufficient. Also as said before, return to the tank not to the swirlpot. You'll never fully empty the pot as the pressure is low, and you'd need to be at full throttle for a very long time to empty the swirlpot anyway.
hi andy thanks for your input matey , the pump youve shown says a max psi of 14 my fuel pressure reg was set at 45 psi when mapped on the dyno , so would that matter if your only using it as a lift pump ?. also the a1000 pump uses -10 inputs and outputs so i would defo need -10 and the jenvey fuel rails are -6 and so is my aeromotive fuel reg both inputs and the return are -6.
also i want to use as little different thread sizes as i can so its as simple as possible
cheers paul
also i want to use as little different thread sizes as i can so its as simple as possible
cheers paul
06-01-2010, 09:05 PM
#72
the heat comes mostly from the fuel passing the hot engine compartment via the rails etc. Not the pump itself.
Walbro's while they are great little pumps....dont perform well at higher pressures. But a single in tank Walbro is good for around 500bhp with suitably sized injectors.
Walbro's while they are great little pumps....dont perform well at higher pressures. But a single in tank Walbro is good for around 500bhp with suitably sized injectors.
06-01-2010, 10:30 PM
#74
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Don't forget my mate at www.torques.co.uk for pipe and fittings, he has Teflon hose arriving next week
Mention me for discount
Normally -8 feed and -6 return ?
Mention me for discount
Normally -8 feed and -6 return ?
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