YUM Cossie VS Si B Evo TORQUE CURVES NOW ADDED PAGE 2
#121
At the end of the day have 2 set of figures, engine dyno and rolling road
Now im sure if l had of kept YUM mark could of got me very close to the engine dyno figures in the car when we was going to have a crack at 200 plus the benefit of some race fuel as well
I decided to to have the figures from what it was running on the road, if we had turned up boost we may of had transmission problems as it was only a Bara box and a 7" Quaife rear diff and all my transmission was sold at the time of the rollers
I would of not wanted anymore than 500bhp at the wheels, anyone that has had 500bhp at the wheels will tell you its bloody fast!!!! Maybe to fast for the road.
Cheers
Now im sure if l had of kept YUM mark could of got me very close to the engine dyno figures in the car when we was going to have a crack at 200 plus the benefit of some race fuel as well
I decided to to have the figures from what it was running on the road, if we had turned up boost we may of had transmission problems as it was only a Bara box and a 7" Quaife rear diff and all my transmission was sold at the time of the rollers
I would of not wanted anymore than 500bhp at the wheels, anyone that has had 500bhp at the wheels will tell you its bloody fast!!!! Maybe to fast for the road.
Cheers
as said dave i wasnt digging you or your car as iv always thought the engine was great power...
cheers danny
#122
Professional Waffler
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 26,931
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not sure who that comment was aimed at.
If it was me, then I disagree Im not looking for an argument at all, Im merely correcting what I believe to be innacurate info, I suspect that Danny believes that is what he is doing too.
If people dont want to read it because such discussions dont interest them then they dont need to, but at least in both cases we are doing our best to be constructive, where as your comment is nothing other than insulting and brings nothing of value to the discussion at all IMHO.
Be a boring world if we all thought the same thing though anyway!
If it was me, then I disagree Im not looking for an argument at all, Im merely correcting what I believe to be innacurate info, I suspect that Danny believes that is what he is doing too.
If people dont want to read it because such discussions dont interest them then they dont need to, but at least in both cases we are doing our best to be constructive, where as your comment is nothing other than insulting and brings nothing of value to the discussion at all IMHO.
Be a boring world if we all thought the same thing though anyway!
its a great topic and one i was enjoying, until people are just looking for an argument,
it's ok,
i'll leave this topic now
#123
*** Sierra RS Custard ***
iTrader: (3)
So yours is probably just over 600bhp too, like Daves on the lower boost setting, although like I said earlier, different boxes have different losses anyway.
Last edited by Chip; 03-12-2009 at 02:14 PM.
#125
Resident Wrestling Legend
iTrader: (3)
the only way you are EVER going to be able to measure transmissio losses acuratly is to get th eengine plumbed onto the dyno
tehen add a gearbox and emasure the losses through the box
then add a prop and measure again
then add a diff and measure again
then the shafts and measure again
then the hubs and measure again and then the wheels and measure again
this way you are in a controled enviroment where repeatability is easy to achive so the only losses you will find will be through the transmission
but that's not going to happen so the easiest way to measure the power getting to the tarmac is going to be on a dyno whre all the variables have been accounted for
so if you make 50 bhp more than your mate does on one set of rollers, but only make 20 bhp more than your mate on another set, the figures you get will be right for your car on that set of rollers, and then you can argue as to who's "righ" and who;s "wrong" down the pub
or on the internet
tehen add a gearbox and emasure the losses through the box
then add a prop and measure again
then add a diff and measure again
then the shafts and measure again
then the hubs and measure again and then the wheels and measure again
this way you are in a controled enviroment where repeatability is easy to achive so the only losses you will find will be through the transmission
but that's not going to happen so the easiest way to measure the power getting to the tarmac is going to be on a dyno whre all the variables have been accounted for
so if you make 50 bhp more than your mate does on one set of rollers, but only make 20 bhp more than your mate on another set, the figures you get will be right for your car on that set of rollers, and then you can argue as to who's "righ" and who;s "wrong" down the pub
or on the internet
#126
*** Sierra RS Custard ***
iTrader: (3)
the only way you are EVER going to be able to measure transmissio losses acuratly is to get th eengine plumbed onto the dyno
tehen add a gearbox and emasure the losses through the box
then add a prop and measure again
then add a diff and measure again
then the shafts and measure again
then the hubs and measure again and then the wheels and measure again
tehen add a gearbox and emasure the losses through the box
then add a prop and measure again
then add a diff and measure again
then the shafts and measure again
then the hubs and measure again and then the wheels and measure again
So, going back a couple of pages to where I said it first of all, you cant ever accuratly measure flywheel figures in the car.
#127
I've found that life I needed.. It's HERE!!
i see what Danny is saying though as on pump fuel at around 2.0 bar of boost,my car made 599 hp on the rolling road and was 450hp@ the wheels which is a big loss and mines rwd,but any how its how a car performs not what the figure is ,just a reference point for when you are making changes to see what gives better response or more power
#128
*** Sierra RS Custard ***
iTrader: (3)
i see what Danny is saying though as on pump fuel at around 2.0 bar of boost,my car made 599 hp on the rolling road and was 450hp@ the wheels which is a big loss and mines rwd,but any how its how a car performs not what the figure is ,just a reference point for when you are making changes to see what gives better response or more power
As you say though, if you can keep using the same rollers, its a great reference point to know how changes have effected it.
#129
Resident Wrestling Legend
iTrader: (3)
That still wont work as the dyno only has the ability to be reading power directly from a single input, so to feed it power from the wheels, you would need to sit the car on some rollers, or hub dyno packs or similar, at which point its NOT the same dyno anymore, and hence no longer truely comparable, as each stage would need seperately calibrating etc etc
So, going back a couple of pages to where I said it first of all, you cant ever accuratly measure flywheel figures in the car.
So, going back a couple of pages to where I said it first of all, you cant ever accuratly measure flywheel figures in the car.
you'd just have to fabricate some sort of enclosure to hang it all from
and then you have 2 dyno's to measure the output from either side of the diff, etc, etc
it would be way to difficult and tine consuming to ever be practical realistically, but it would be the only way to measure the losses for a particular set up in my eyes
and if you had several different references over the course of time in which to glean various different bits of info from, youwould have a mroe acruate way to measure the losses
ok, so you still wouldn't be in a car with all the little foibles that being inside a box would create, but you would set a benchmark by wich you could rate everythign else, be it higher or lower
#130
*** Sierra RS Custard ***
iTrader: (3)
Manufacturers tend to know what their transmission and instalation in the bay combined is losing fairly accurately, as they are putting the same engine from dyno to rollers quite reguarly, but even with all that data, its still guesswork the moment you go to a different box, or a different power level on the same box, as like I have said its not a direct relationship.
#131
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Poole
Posts: 4,033
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why not just take the ATW figure of each, add 10bhp and divide the result by 0.84?
For 500bhp this equates to 595bhp.
Much more accurate than percentages that go off at extremes of power.
Still no definitive number of course but best you can hope for.
#132
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Poole
Posts: 4,033
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i see what Danny is saying though as on pump fuel at around 2.0 bar of boost,my car made 599 hp on the rolling road and was 450hp@ the wheels which is a big loss and mines rwd,but any how its how a car performs not what the figure is ,just a reference point for when you are making changes to see what gives better response or more power
#134
Your 528 @ rear wheels is probably very similar engine power to his 491 @ all 4 wheels, if those figures are off equivalent dynos, you expect to lose more power when you have a txb and an extra diff.
So yours is probably just over 600bhp too, like Daves on the lower boost setting, although like I said earlier, different boxes have different losses anyway.
So yours is probably just over 600bhp too, like Daves on the lower boost setting, although like I said earlier, different boxes have different losses anyway.
cheers danny
#135
cheers danny
#136
B1mbo
iTrader: (1)
im glad you said that because i thought simons was quicker than that..mind you he had a good tussle with jays white 3dr at coombe a while back and although i didnt tussle with him myself his mate said i was 2 secs a lap quicker round brands than him...i was doing brands in 52 secs in the summer but 56s on wets the other week...bring on the new year,i cant wait to get the car out again
cheers danny
cheers danny
hi danny was that on slicks ? do you think you'll get much quicker ?
#137
after feeling the car last week on the wets i was dying to get on the slicks but then the clutch started slipping and of course i put the slicks on and that done the clutch completly but back to your questions yes the 52s were on slicks and yes i rekon i can get atleast another second as the car is feeling awesome...
less lag and more tourque has made it handle better to as its tighter through the bends...
cant wait to see what it does on the dyno...
Anyway hows you mate???
cheers danny
less lag and more tourque has made it handle better to as its tighter through the bends...
cant wait to see what it does on the dyno...
Anyway hows you mate???
cheers danny
#138
B1mbo
iTrader: (1)
after feeling the car last week on the wets i was dying to get on the slicks but then the clutch started slipping and of course i put the slicks on and that done the clutch completly but back to your questions yes the 52s were on slicks and yes i rekon i can get atleast another second as the car is feeling awesome...
less lag and more tourque has made it handle better to as its tighter through the bends...
cant wait to see what it does on the dyno...
Anyway hows you mate???
cheers danny
less lag and more tourque has made it handle better to as its tighter through the bends...
cant wait to see what it does on the dyno...
Anyway hows you mate???
cheers danny
im ok thanks bud sounds all is well with you ?? lol
#139
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Poole
Posts: 4,033
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Or your car has massively more losses than others, in which case if you get to the bottom of the problem you'll have 500 ATW.
#141
I've found that life I needed.. It's HERE!!
I don't see your point, as it's 450 ATW no matter what the bullshit corrected figure is, so just quote that as that's correct and the engine figure is waaaaaay off.
Or your car has massively more losses than others, in which case if you get to the bottom of the problem you'll have 500 ATW.
Or your car has massively more losses than others, in which case if you get to the bottom of the problem you'll have 500 ATW.
i dont make the dyno,s chap ,and i cant explain why i get 150hp loss,my skyline used to lose simular and thats alot heavier and 4wd but simular power,but as said before if you use the same dyno its a good reference point when developing your engine
#142
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Poole
Posts: 4,033
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anyway, that's what's contacting the road...
#143
Guys,
I am not claiming to be a genius, but no one on this post seems to understand how a rolling road works, or why there is a difference in the ATW figure, between different rolling roads, even if they are all being run 'fairly'.
Therefore when another person here posts their engine dyno figure and then r/r figure and we all start debating the % loss, no one on here really understands 'where' all of this bhp is lost. As such, this discussion is pointless.
RW
I am not claiming to be a genius, but no one on this post seems to understand how a rolling road works, or why there is a difference in the ATW figure, between different rolling roads, even if they are all being run 'fairly'.
Therefore when another person here posts their engine dyno figure and then r/r figure and we all start debating the % loss, no one on here really understands 'where' all of this bhp is lost. As such, this discussion is pointless.
RW
#144
Testing the future
Guys,
I am not claiming to be a genius, but no one on this post seems to understand how a rolling road works, or why there is a difference in the ATW figure, between different rolling roads, even if they are all being run 'fairly'.
Therefore when another person here posts their engine dyno figure and then r/r figure and we all start debating the % loss, no one on here really understands 'where' all of this bhp is lost. As such, this discussion is pointless.
RW
I am not claiming to be a genius, but no one on this post seems to understand how a rolling road works, or why there is a difference in the ATW figure, between different rolling roads, even if they are all being run 'fairly'.
Therefore when another person here posts their engine dyno figure and then r/r figure and we all start debating the % loss, no one on here really understands 'where' all of this bhp is lost. As such, this discussion is pointless.
RW
as for making a direct comparison for at the wheels figures measured on a dyno to crank figure, it is only possible if you are measuring at the crank at the same time (with a strain gauge or similar torque sensing device, and an acuurate rotational speed measurement, perhaps taken from the ecu's signal)
#145
Guys,
I am not claiming to be a genius, but no one on this post seems to understand how a rolling road works, or why there is a difference in the ATW figure, between different rolling roads, even if they are all being run 'fairly'.
Therefore when another person here posts their engine dyno figure and then r/r figure and we all start debating the % loss, no one on here really understands 'where' all of this bhp is lost. As such, this discussion is pointless.
RW
I am not claiming to be a genius, but no one on this post seems to understand how a rolling road works, or why there is a difference in the ATW figure, between different rolling roads, even if they are all being run 'fairly'.
Therefore when another person here posts their engine dyno figure and then r/r figure and we all start debating the % loss, no one on here really understands 'where' all of this bhp is lost. As such, this discussion is pointless.
RW
If you want to a prove a cars capabilities get it on the black stuff.... but that is another story.
Both of these cars undoubtedly have some real nuts, which is great. Perhaps best to leave it at that.
#146
PassionFord Regular
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: New York, USA
Posts: 362
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why do people argue on flywheel numbers? I cant getting!
Who cares? What they should care about is power at the wheels. Thats what you put on your tires...
As said before, if you want to compare them, hit the track!
Who cares? What they should care about is power at the wheels. Thats what you put on your tires...
As said before, if you want to compare them, hit the track!
#147
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
after feeling the car last week on the wets i was dying to get on the slicks but then the clutch started slipping and of course i put the slicks on and that done the clutch completly but back to your questions yes the 52s were on slicks and yes i rekon i can get atleast another second as the car is feeling awesome...
less lag and more tourque has made it handle better to as its tighter through the bends...
cant wait to see what it does on the dyno...
Anyway hows you mate???
cheers danny
less lag and more tourque has made it handle better to as its tighter through the bends...
cant wait to see what it does on the dyno...
Anyway hows you mate???
cheers danny
Do you have any videos of your car as that sounds pretty quick?
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
DavidK
Ford Sierra/Sapphire/RS500 Cosworth
1
27-09-2015 02:55 PM