Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

Its not about locking people up for addictive behaviour, but protecting the public and the huge expense and damage the effects of heroin addiction causes.

I dont pretend to know everything about the psychology of drug addicts etc BUT i do see the negative side daily and the crime statistics dont present a pretty picture. The links between prostitution and drug abuse are clear for example.

Surely hospitalisation (even if lifelong) is a better life than a life on drugs, both for the patient and for the protection of the public???

Im not saying all addicts should be permenantly in hospital but the ones whove spent years and years on them with rehab etc not helping then what other choice is there other than let the cycle of crime and misery continue???? surely we have to try and draw a line with those people and say that the needs of the many outwiegh the needs of one???

l0ubie

If they genuinely warrant a place in a hospital Then ok! I'm just saying that the view of every one with some sort of addictive tendency should be locked up in a funny farm is wrong as half the country would be in there!!

Everyone has different views I just think people shouldn't make such generalized statements about things that are extremely complex matters! After all everyone is different!

Drugs are nasty but each individual is different!!

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Loubie, I dont think that how you interpreted Warren's post was at all what he meant, I certianly didnt read it as him meaning everyone who smokes or is addicted to trackdays should be in hospital like you did.
I assumed he meant the ones who are a public nuiscance as a result of their addiction, stealing etc.

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

That is what i meant.

l0ubie

I was using it as an extreme example of everything if taken to an extend can be deemed as addictive!

I guess I see it from the otherside working where I do! I just can't see how anyone can say 'lock someone up' as they are costing society money when being locked up is going to cost more and possibly is not needed!
But opinions are opinions at the end of the day

Edit: excuse my grammer it's late!

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

its not just money. All the carnage caused by muggings/violent robberys etc prostitution etc causes far more damage emotionally than pure financial sense.

Im all for human rights but there has to be a balance between the human rights of the addict and the rights of the people who get in thier way or get used/mugged etc to feed thier habbit.

Im all for "the needs of the many being above the needs of the few" in certain situations (guess its ethos taught in military) and i feel strongly such severe behaviour and its effect on society warrants such a reaction.

Yet i do realise the flip side, as chip says often these people are victims of various things. and end up more victimised through bullying dealers, the psychological effect of prostitution to feed habbits etc etc etc

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

so the current system works then??? just needs to be much bigger to work???

RS Grant

iTrader: (1)

Yea... I guess some do-gooders would campaign for the normal, hard working person to knuckle down a bit more and throw more money into the pot to support these no-hope wastes of space.

I used to work in my citys Drug Problem Centre, and the ratio of junky scum to people who had made a few wrong choices and got caught up in drugs is a minimum 95% scum who have NO intention of getting off the shite and use their Methadone as a free hit, to 5% being unlucky people who are genuinely trying to change and claw back their lives.

I have MASSIVE respect for the 5%, but the 95% I would happily lock in a basic cell with basic food, vitamins and fluids for as many weeks, months or years that it takes to clean them up.


Cheers,
Grant

Dub604

Where i currently am (Vancouver, Canada.)there is a massive drug infestation!!! I have never seen anything like it in my life. Im my daily routine at work, I spend quite a bit of time downtown and WOW!!, I have seen people shooting up on the sidewalk, they just leave their needles laying where they please. when you drive down Hastings, there is a number of blocks that is full of junkies and hookers. fucking nasty.

next time i go past, ill get a couple of pics and post em. you have never seen anything like it.

GARETH T

sadly you can see it in every city in the world!

Char1ie

iTrader: (6)

I'm still in favour of heroin on prescription from the NHS for those who are dependent on it. This approach allows addicts to lead a normal stable life and hold down a steady job and keeps people away from crime. Burglaries and petty crime drop substantially around schemes like this. Clean free needles should come with the prescription.

I think it's better to view people who are addicted to heroin as needing help rather than being a target of victimsation.

Heroin prescription: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3702428.stm

Swiss example: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1727532.stm

Medical expert: ""We tried an approach of repression and intolerance, treating heroin addicts as criminals, but it simply got us nowhere. We had to recognise that these people had a serious health problem."



Charlie

Char1ie

iTrader: (6)

That made me laugh after you said "all junkies are scum" in an earlier post.


Charlie

GARETH T

charlie, i agree with you in that we need another approach, and now we got the use of the afgan poppy fields we're laughing LOL

l0ubie

I wrote junkies are scum, looking back I have missed out the 'some' as it was late and half of the stuff I wrote had gramatical errors!

Yea some junkies are scum, that's my personal opinion but they don't deserve the locked in a funny farm because they are an addict!
You either treat the cause or the effect but not both!!

Roscco

^^^ This is the most informative post so far.

Seeing as ths is 99% a junky hating thread, i'll keep this to a minimum.

I speak from current experience as some of you may well know, and before those who don't jump all over me, i'm degree educated, in full time employment and have been for 5 out of 8 years of heroin addiction. I've been through several failed detox programs , at expense to me as well as you, and am currently on a methadone stability program.

Ofcourse i'm going to tell you all that i've never mugged anyone, never stolen anything, and as a long term addict, it'll makes sense i've been to jail. But most of you think you know the answers here anyway so there's no point in putting my view accross.

So, in summary,

Next time one of you wants to murder a junky, or lock him up for his own good, or fuckin section him (come on, behave now) make sure it's one of the 95% that'll take it lying down. I might have other ideas

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Good luck Rossco, I hope you are one of the rare people who's strength of character is stronger than their addiction.

Just out of interest, what drove you to try heroin in the first place?
(feel free to ignore the question, its a far more personal one than I have any right to expect you to answer, but as you were being so open I figured you might be prepared to share)

Lambchop

iTrader: (1)

I'm going to join chip with the questions as i've never spoken to a junkie.

What made you try it is a good Q above.
What had you taken before?
How the hell does it make you feel? Dont you just KO
How much do you spend a day on it?
Do you have anything to your name or is it all gone?
Are you always on it at work etc? What about driving?
I take it your work don't know?
Don't people notice? When i see junkies in town it's fucking obvious they are out of it and are always scrawny white little cunts.

Answer or not as you wish

Roscco

Cheers for the positive replys,
I'll share anything if at deters one person, it's worth the embarrasment.

What made you try it?
Stupidity, plain and simple. Had always enjoyed a smoke, or a couple of pills when out. Figured i new the risks so it would never get me.

What had you taken before?
It'd be easier to say what i've not taken.

How the hell does it make you feel? Dont you just KO?
Common misconception. You'll have heard it makes you feel wrapped up in cotton wool? It kinda does (dependant on how good the gear is) for the first week or so. The you need it just to function. May take longer may be less. Yep, i can knock myself sideways if i want/need. But to be honest i finished chasing that a long time ago. It costs too much and more important just to be feelin ok.

How much do you spend a day on it?
Am more or less sustained on methadone at the minute, so only using Ł10. Without the meth, I'll start when i wake up and finish when i feel right. Maybe Ł30-40

Do you have anything to your name or is it all gone?
Been there and sold everything(almost everything), building everything back up last few years. Have everything i need. LCD tv, computer, dog, house. Jobs a good'in.

Are you always on it at work etc? What about driving?
There's opiates in my body 24 hours a day, so yes always 'on it'. As for driving, the DVLA want to know, then ask for Dr report. As a long term user, i'm considered safe on the roads with 6monthly reviews. If you met me you wouldn't know.

I take it your work don't know?
This is a good one. Social stigma is such that work will call it allsorts to sack you for a drug problem. Misuse of computers is a favourite. No, this work doesn't know. Last one found out, Bad.

Don't people notice? When i see junkies in town it's fucking obvious they are out of it and are always scrawny white little cunts.
I don't look like that, will post pics if needed lol .If you knew me before, you might have a guess as i lost 9stone in 8months. But........... I'm 6' 5" in shoes and weighed almost 20stone so never looked too fat and now look.... well slim but i eat work and play so have plenty of colour about me. But yes if you know what your looking for, pinned eyes, gaunt drawn in look etc. you'll spot a user from 20 feet.

Lambchop

iTrader: (1)

cheers for the reply. its amazing to be able to ask someone straight out and get a reply. i dont have a very good view on junkies as my experience is all jobless scum who wobble up the road fucked off their heads.

how did you take it at first? smoke it? i assume you inject now?

is it always readily available?

how much weight/cost wise is it for a "hit"?

i'm very suprised at being allowed to drive. didn't think that'd be the case!!

Must be hard being open here yet you cant explain at work or it be known. what do you do out of interest?

Is trainspotting a good portrayal?

Kamike

Wow Roscco for posting that. Hope all goes well

Chip

iTrader: (3)

As above, thanks for sharing, very interesting insight.

Ive known a couple of other heroin users who actually manage to function just by having a fixed amount a day to function with and have come across relatively normally, I guess people just assume cause they see some junkies in a right state that all are like that when in fact they arent.

Perfect parellel would be alocholics, sure you get the down and out wino's who come across on a par with the junkies on the street people picture, but you also get bank managers and laywers etc who managed to lead a "normal" life seemingly despite being alcoholic.


Its interesting to see that your initial getting onto heroin was exactly the "once you try one drug its a dangerous road and before you know it you are a junkie" route that people always laugh at when their parents say it, it just shows how much it DOES happen like that in many cases.

Roscco

This is half my point, You say it's amazing to be able to ask someone and get a straight response? My take is it souldn't be amazing, it should have been there in the first place. Until people get proper information this is a problem that will only get worse. Country's going to the dogs as it is.

Anyways, ('scuse the shameless copy&paste)

How did you take it at first? smoke it? i assume you inject now?
Yup, smoked for the first year or so, then for (and this is true) financial reasons i started I.V

Is it always readily available?
Pretty much, There's ALWAYS somewhere to go. Just depends on your standards.

How much weight/cost wise is it for a "hit"?
Depends on area/quality...... Where i am, can get .15-.2 of a gram for Ł10. One hit.

i'm very suprised at being allowed to drive. didn't think that'd be the case!!
Again this comes down to your perception of what heroin does to people. The folk you see wasted in town, probably poly-drug users. Mixing smack with benzo's commonly does this.

Must be hard being open here yet you cant explain at work or it be known. what do you do out of interest?
It's wierd being honest, 'cause it's such a taboo subject. I'd rather people had the facts and no-one else has to go through what i've gone through (Heroin wise, my life's been like a million others. Neither good nor bad)
I'm an I.T admin when time allows and i'm involved in the starting of a company selling aircraft parts. Not much time for lying about wasted anymore lol.

Is trainspotting a good portrayal?

If you take out the falling back once you've had a hit, (the gear hasn't been that good in a long time) Yeah, it's pretty close to the bone.

Lambchop

iTrader: (1)

Again thanks,

Why is it cheaper to use IV than smoking? I assume you use less and it's an instant hit?

I assumed it'd be more expensive than cocaine? You're roughly Ł50 a gramme though which is maybe much and such?

Have you ever gone cold turkey and really struggled?

How do yuor family deal with it? Have you got any non drug user friends left or have they all abandoned you?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Injection is just a more efficient use of any drug Lambchop, so the same tenners worth goes further.

Lambchop

iTrader: (1)

as i suspected then.

WOuldn't want to go wasting any would we

Chip

iTrader: (3)

No mate, in fact you would dive down a dirty scottish toilet to retrieve some if you really needed a hit, well according to a documentary I watched anyway

Roscco

Kamike, chip, cheers.

I used to get told that smoking hash would lead me on to harder drugs, and i used to laugh thinking i knew better and could always say no.

But, i now realise that it didn't mean that because i smoke hash i'll end up on kit, but it's likely the doors to harder substances will open.

I'll be the 1st to admit that Heroin will take better men than me, chew them up and have them rob their family let alone friends... If you'd rob your mother, do you think a mate will cause you any problems? But (and there's always a but) I think you'd find most users weren't always complete cunts. It's just easier to let that happen than not.

Our country is too busy trying to push problems like this under the carpet.

Until we get a proper taxed/legal system of somesort there is always going to be crime, seeing as 70% of crime is drug related.

Roscco

Give both men a biscuit, yes toilet diving if needs must is surely a givin, and yes I.V is more efficient, longer lasting. Can buy a gram wholesale for way less than Ł50. Is expensive to buy in bags.

Cold turkey..... Not happening, again been there more than once. Every once in a while i get this daft notion that.....(see trainspotting scene). It's as close as you'll get.
I can last maybe 36hours then full blown junky mode kicks in. ANYTHING becomes a possibility to score. Not good.

Family wise, i've been lucky?????? My Mum is a district nursing sister, so works with junkys all day. As a plus it didn't shock her so much, as a bad, well they seem to be far more fucked up than i am, and they tend to die. As such she constantly thinks i'll be dead soon. Nice huh.
Nothing sorts out your REAL friends like a Heroin habit. The ones worth keeping stay, the others don't.

Lambchop

iTrader: (1)

lol@documentary

Rossco
What about the friends/family question? Have they stuck by you?


One of my good friends through uni was a healthy sporty guy who condemned smoking due to his grands dying of throat cancer never mind anything harder. His parents are fucking spot on and i spent many a night there having been on the lash. Anyways he also had a younger brother who was COMPLETELY the opposite. He was constantly in trouble and it eventually lead to drugs, stealing etc. He was kicked out a few times but they always looked after him. He stole many things including my things which were in the house! This came to an end when one day he OD'd and died I was with my gf(now wife) when my mate txt at 02 00 in the morning saying he'd been found. Awful news its hard even thinking about it now

Less.

I admire your guts for being so frank and honest Roscco

I use to have the same view lock all junkies up,till I got to know some and it was horrible too see them waste away,rather get their than miss their next fix not have electric or food,many times i would give my neighbour food as he had none,and where I use to work in Southampton you would see the prostitutes sell themselves when they wasnt high they where pretty normal nice girls.

The current system we have does not work and I dont think their is an easy anwser to it.


Plus I have seen some alcoholics steal too fund their habit same as drug users,and as with drug users most people assume it will never happen to them,I am sure most users addicts said the same thing

Plus remember not very alcoholic is the tramp in the park with the cider,I know I speak from experience as I am recovering alcoholic myself.

RS Grant

iTrader: (1)

Roscco, have you had addict friends that have died?? If so, does this not shock you into trying to clean up?? Or the fact your mum lives with the fear that one day she'll discover you dead in a heap after taking an accidental OD or something along those lines??

Like I said above, I've got massive respect for people that recognise that they have a problem and try to change their situation. I also appreciate the replies and angle that you're giving on here, which is very rare.


Cheers,
Grant

Roscco

Ed209 - Be it drink or drugs, the end result once they get a grip tends to be similar. I could never, as in still now couldn't be an alcoholic. However i've said this once before......... Keep it up. Hard i know.

RS Grant - Yes i've had friends who've OD'd/Died. Without wanting to sound really harsh (and it will) i don't know how to say this..... Umm, it's not good when people die, especially if we care about them. However, When you spend a couple of years sending only God knows what into your blood stream it'd be kinda hypocritical to be shocked into stopping.
Anyways, it's the perfect excuse just have another dig and soften the blow(Nasty but true). Reality bites sometimes.

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

Thanks for talking about your experience Roscco thats the kind of replies i was looking for!!

Would you say the 95%/5% split said by grant is pretty accurate or biased by the statistics of the types of people who would use the drug services he worked in?? ie is it more likely he would see mostly just the hardcore addicts who cant function rather than those with a level of functioning left???

So the reason you have a lower risk of death than other addicts is because your not completely off the rails??? Im sure a addict wouldnt deliberately inject an OD or are those kind of users so deep in the addiction that they have no control anymore and just dont know what they are doing???

On the original question i posed, i presume you use clean needles etc, but being "in the scene" can you shed insight into why the hardcore junkies often use dirty/shared needles despite easy access to free sharps???

also, youve said youve been on and off the drugs for a while now despite detox. You say youve had a average life. Do you know what drives the addiction and why the detox fails??? is it merely psychological and chemical addiction (perhaps genetic factors) or is there a deeper issue you are trying to hide from??
eg you used to take other drugs before heroin, was it to escape from a past or a reality??

and the final question:
As a user yourself, other than the legalisation, What treatment/therapys etc would help you?? why did detox not help???

nice avatar

Roscco

Warrenpenalver, not ignoring you, need to go to chemist lol, will reply when back.

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

That is true sadly!! and the psychologica effects of the nasty side of prostitution often gives them more reason to stay on the drugs which is a tragic shame!!
That is true but the sheer scale is different due to the costs of the drug in question, alcohol, not being so expensive is easier to obtain.

Which does nicely link into the arguements for heroin on prescription as the need to commit crime then ceases to exist.
Although on the flip side there is the possibility that people may be less inclined to steer clear of heroin if they knew its more easily/cheaply available.

Plus then you have to consider that to get heroin on prescription would require the user to in essence "admit theyve got a problem" and i wonder how many would not do that.

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

no rush!!

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Warren, hopefully there will be a rush for him, or the trip to the chemist was wasted

Chip

iTrader: (3)

I think more people on heroin percentage wise can admit it than alcoholics, although my sample sizes are ridculously small for coming to that conclusion.

The thing is with alcohol, people just turn round and say to themselves "I just like a drink, nothing wrong with that"


Where as with heroin, you cant really justify it to yourself the same way?

89xr2

Sorry but I completely disagree with you chip. They make the decision to try heroin for that very first time. No one is forcing them too. I have no pity for heroin addicts, I may sympathise slightly with ones who are doing everything they can to get off heroin, but still in my eyes they made a conscious choice to try it so it's there own fault and it's all their own doing.

My hat goes off to Rossco for his honesty..

ConnollyGT30

Do you think there are herion addicts who lead a perfectly normal life?