RR or live map???
11-05-2009, 01:05 PM
#43
Well your post was just your usual obsessive following me around to talk about me rather than the thread.
Where as my comments are on topic, and relevant, there are loads of shit rolling road operators out there who think they can tune a car when they cant, and people need to realise that WHO they choose to map their car is a lot more important than HOW that mapping is done, Ive seen people turned over and come away very unhappy after paying good money to someone who doesnt know what they are doing when the job was actually very simple to anyone who is half decent at mapping.
Read Chips replies to you and how derogatory (spl??) they are... thats baiting IMO.
Last edited by Chip; 11-05-2009 at 01:21 PM.
11-05-2009, 01:48 PM
#44
Happily retired
It would be very interesting to completely map mine on the road 
.
Mine is Dyno mapped, will be put on a RR & then low speed mapping (up to 180ish) on the road & then High Speed mapped on an airfield.
.Mine is Dyno mapped, will be put on a RR & then low speed mapping (up to 180ish) on the road & then High Speed mapped on an airfield.
11-05-2009, 01:54 PM
#46
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11-05-2009, 01:56 PM
#47
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Benni.
11-05-2009, 02:05 PM
#49
I would imagine that Mark does a lot of the map from logging the results when doing speeds like that, its not good for an engine in that state of tune to be held under load on the brakes restricting the RPM for long periods as you update a cell to truely "live map" it (much like a rollers does in fact, another bad thing about using them, especially if the operator is a bit slow!)
Thats what I do anyway on SM4 as it logging so good, live monitor it and then change it and monitor it again, you can do an enormous amount of mapping from just a couple of blasts up the road like that
11-05-2009, 02:41 PM
#50
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I couldn't turn a Laptop on at them speeds. He must have no fear. I mean, I wouldn't be scared, but I couldn't have my head in a computer. Thank's for the explanation. It's nice when people come in a thread to discuss the topic itself.
Benni.
Benni.
11-05-2009, 03:01 PM
#51
............
I'm just reading 'Cosworth, The Search For Power' and in one of the chapters I think on DFV's it says about how some engines made up to 30bhp more than others on the engine dyno, all made to the same spec by Cosworth, it was infuriating Keith Duckworth to the point where everytime it happend he'd have it stripped, measured and inspected to see why and even he never managed to figure it out....
Last edited by It's Czech Mate; 11-05-2009 at 03:15 PM.
11-05-2009, 03:18 PM
#52
Off topic but
I'm just reading 'Cosworth, The Search For Power' and in one of the chapters I think on DFV's it says about how some engines made up to 30bhp more than others on the engine dyno, all made to the same spec by Cosworth, it was infuriating Keith Duckworth to the point where everytime it happend he'd have it stripped, measured and inspected to see why and even he never managed to figure it out....
I'm just reading 'Cosworth, The Search For Power' and in one of the chapters I think on DFV's it says about how some engines made up to 30bhp more than others on the engine dyno, all made to the same spec by Cosworth, it was infuriating Keith Duckworth to the point where everytime it happend he'd have it stripped, measured and inspected to see why and even he never managed to figure it out....
11-05-2009, 03:23 PM
#53
............
Ok.
Back on topic anyway
11-05-2009, 03:29 PM
#54
Are you suggesting the company that developed the most accurate known casting process in the auto industry, and out of it, because nobody else could supply them with quality, consistent castings couldnt take a few measurements and differentiate between parts when an engine was giving slightly higher readings? And then ridicule themselves by publishing the fact?
Ok.
Back on topic anyway
Ok.
Back on topic anyway
What Im suggesting is that since then things have moved on, hence I said "shows how much things have moved on, no such problems with modern high end racing engines"
Heads in formula 1 these days arent cast for example, they are very accurately machined from billet and are genuinely the same and give the same power (well to within a tolerance that I personally consider the same, 1% for example, everyone has their own view of what consitutes the same as I mentioned earlier in this thread)
Dont let a few facts stop you from having a completely innacurate rant though mate
11-05-2009, 03:36 PM
#55
............
Identifying internal difference within a complex shape like a cylinder head port, with the available technology at the time, wasnt easy, as he himself demonstrated with the frustration that you are mentioning there.
What Im suggesting is that since then things have moved on, hence I said "shows how much things have moved on, no such problems with modern high end racing engines"
Heads in formula 1 these days arent cast for example, they are very accurately machined from billet and are genuinely the same and give the same power (well to within a tolerance that I personally consider the same, 1% for example, everyone has their own view of what consitutes the same as I mentioned earlier in this thread)
Dont let a few facts stop you from having a completely innacurate rant though mate
What Im suggesting is that since then things have moved on, hence I said "shows how much things have moved on, no such problems with modern high end racing engines"
Heads in formula 1 these days arent cast for example, they are very accurately machined from billet and are genuinely the same and give the same power (well to within a tolerance that I personally consider the same, 1% for example, everyone has their own view of what consitutes the same as I mentioned earlier in this thread)
Dont let a few facts stop you from having a completely innacurate rant though mate
I also know a little about error, having some background in statistics.
1% error is massive BTW IMO
To be honest if one of the worlds finest engineers couldn't figure out his problem i dunno why he didnt just post on PF and find his answer.
11-05-2009, 03:42 PM
#57
Thats the glaringly obvious point you are TOTALLY missing.
If he then had access to the knowlege in my head now, he would have viewed me as the most valuable resource on the planet, same goes for any other person from the year 2009 with a reasonable knowledge about engines.
Things like closed loop fuelling control and knock control, he couldnt have even imagined at the point he was staring at a DFV in a world of punch card operated computers!
He was a brilliant man and an awesome engineer, but he was limited by available technology (so much so that he went on to try and improve technology as he himself realised the possibilities im sure to a certain extent) at the time, and was therefore limited in accuracy by what was possible.
They had NO way of accurately making two heads the same (as in like to within a hundredth of a thou in every single dimension on the entire head) at that point in time, it simply couldnt be done at all, where as now it can be done very easily providing you have the cash to do so.
I could make a far more accurate run of engines in 2009 than they made back then, thats not a comment on the relative merits of me versus him, its a reflection of how technology can bridge and surpass such a massive gulf in talent.
Your stuck in the past with your opinions, and reading books from the 60s/70s before the advent of modern computer controlled mills isnt going to help you any with getting closer to the truth of what can very easily be achieved in 2009.
Last edited by Chip; 11-05-2009 at 03:45 PM.
11-05-2009, 03:52 PM
#59
............
The reason he couldnt, is that the internet didnt exist, and neither did computer controlled 5 axis milling machines and most of the other technology available to us now.
Thats the glaringly obvious point you are TOTALLY missing.
If he then had access to the knowlege in my head now, he would have viewed me as the most valuable resource on the planet, same goes for any other person from the year 2009 with a reasonable knowledge about engines.
Things like closed loop fuelling control and knock control, he couldnt have even imagined at the point he was staring at a DFV in a world of punch card operated computers!
He was a brilliant man and an awesome engineer, but he was limited by available technology (so much so that he went on to try and improve technology as he himself realised the possibilities im sure to a certain extent) at the time, and was therefore limited in accuracy by what was possible.
They had NO way of accurately making two heads the same (as in like to within a hundredth of a thou in every single dimension on the entire head) at that point in time, it simply couldnt be done at all, where as now it can be done very easily providing you have the cash to do so.
I could make a far more accurate run of engines in 2009 than they made back then, thats not a comment on the relative merits of me versus him, its a reflection of how technology can bridge and surpass such a massive gulf in talent.
Your stuck in the past with your opinions, and reading books from the 60s/70s before the advent of modern computer controlled mills isnt going to help you any with getting closer to the truth of what can very easily be achieved in 2009.
Thats the glaringly obvious point you are TOTALLY missing.
If he then had access to the knowlege in my head now, he would have viewed me as the most valuable resource on the planet, same goes for any other person from the year 2009 with a reasonable knowledge about engines.
Things like closed loop fuelling control and knock control, he couldnt have even imagined at the point he was staring at a DFV in a world of punch card operated computers!
He was a brilliant man and an awesome engineer, but he was limited by available technology (so much so that he went on to try and improve technology as he himself realised the possibilities im sure to a certain extent) at the time, and was therefore limited in accuracy by what was possible.
They had NO way of accurately making two heads the same (as in like to within a hundredth of a thou in every single dimension on the entire head) at that point in time, it simply couldnt be done at all, where as now it can be done very easily providing you have the cash to do so.
I could make a far more accurate run of engines in 2009 than they made back then, thats not a comment on the relative merits of me versus him, its a reflection of how technology can bridge and surpass such a massive gulf in talent.
Your stuck in the past with your opinions, and reading books from the 60s/70s before the advent of modern computer controlled mills isnt going to help you any with getting closer to the truth of what can very easily be achieved in 2009.
So you dont think he had the brainwave to swap heads in his tests, bearing in mind he was a brilliant engineer. He REALLY should have come on PF to sort his shit out
And as for the accuracy, he quotes " We could normally predict the power with 1-2 BHP before it even went on the the dyno ( which is why they were flummoxed by the odd result ) so I really dont think their process of making the cylinder heads is in question.
11-05-2009, 03:56 PM
#60
............
11-05-2009, 03:58 PM
#61
FPMSL
So you dont think he had the brainwave to swap heads in his tests, bearing in mind he was a brilliant engineer. He REALLY should have come on PF to sort his shit out
And as for the accuracy, he quotes " We could normally predict the power with 1-2 BHP before it even went on the the dyno ( which is why they were flummoxed by the odd result ) so I really dont think their process of making the cylinder heads is in question.
So you dont think he had the brainwave to swap heads in his tests, bearing in mind he was a brilliant engineer. He REALLY should have come on PF to sort his shit out
And as for the accuracy, he quotes " We could normally predict the power with 1-2 BHP before it even went on the the dyno ( which is why they were flummoxed by the odd result ) so I really dont think their process of making the cylinder heads is in question.
Last edited by Chip; 11-05-2009 at 04:01 PM.
11-05-2009, 04:01 PM
#62
I suspect that your idea of what consitutes "same spec" is somewhat different to mine mate, lets leave it at that as its fairly off topic anyway for this debate.
11-05-2009, 04:22 PM
#64
Chipster, perhaps you'll pop over to the RST section and grace the thread from the guy that is looking for blue polybushes with some of your technical knowledge. 
11-05-2009, 04:24 PM
#65
All bow down to Chip. He, the fountain of knowledge of all things.
We should rename this forum PassionChip.com.
Whatever your question, Chip can answer it.
Chip, I'm looking to improve the condition of my grass, which is a little bare and mossy. Can you help??
We should rename this forum PassionChip.com.
Whatever your question, Chip can answer it.
Chip, I'm looking to improve the condition of my grass, which is a little bare and mossy. Can you help??
11-05-2009, 04:29 PM
#66
All bow down to Chip. He, the fountain of knowledge of all things.
We should rename this forum PassionChip.com.
Whatever your question, Chip can answer it.
Chip, I'm looking to improve the condition of my grass, which is a little bare and mossy. Can you help??
We should rename this forum PassionChip.com.
Whatever your question, Chip can answer it.
Chip, I'm looking to improve the condition of my grass, which is a little bare and mossy. Can you help??
So I cant help at all with the gardening question as I dont reply to questions that I dont know much about, maybe you should try applying the same filter on what you post as I do and you wouldnt then end up posting such nonsense in the first place
11-05-2009, 04:36 PM
#67
Sorry mate, I stick to only commenting on the limited few subjects that I do know something about, such as engines, mapping, turbos, handling, that sort of thing, as on those subjects Im able to provide a lot of useful information to the users of this forum.
So I cant help at all with the gardening question as I dont reply to questions that I dont know much about, maybe you should try applying the same filter on what you post as I do and you wouldnt then end up posting such nonsense in the first place
So I cant help at all with the gardening question as I dont reply to questions that I dont know much about, maybe you should try applying the same filter on what you post as I do and you wouldnt then end up posting such nonsense in the first place
I feel better now we've had a little bit of humour. Isn't it great?
11-05-2009, 06:13 PM
#69
Testing the future
11-05-2009, 06:57 PM
#71
I guess the extra speed (created by the funnelling effect) just means ALL the air the fan is producing goes in the right place, but does not impact the volume?
Cheers
RW
11-05-2009, 07:07 PM
#72
PassionFord Post Whore!!
11-05-2009, 08:06 PM
#74
Testing the future
I suppose narrowing the outlet increases the speed and allows you to focus the air. So ur questions (which seems a little loaded?) suggests that the volume of the air is the same (sure thing) but from the way Christian has said it is sped up, that he is suggesting that will make the car cooler, and you are suggesting that it won't as the voume of air doesn't change?
I guess the extra speed (created by the funnelling effect) just means ALL the air the fan is producing goes in the right place, but does not impact the volume?
Cheers
RW
I guess the extra speed (created by the funnelling effect) just means ALL the air the fan is producing goes in the right place, but does not impact the volume?
Cheers
RW
11-05-2009, 08:50 PM
#75
Yes, as per RW's reply. The 'nozzle' on our fan was designed to channel all the air from it's 900mm circular outlet, into a smaller shape more suited to the size of an Intercooler in it's usual position. Naturally this will speed up the airflow, but the main reason for doing it was to concentrate the air where it's needed.
Consequently, this doesn't suit EVERY application, but we had to focus on what we do most of and improvise on the rest. We've done OK so far.
Consequently, this doesn't suit EVERY application, but we had to focus on what we do most of and improvise on the rest. We've done OK so far.
11-05-2009, 09:00 PM
#76
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Can I ask Chip, in refference to modern technology being so much better. How come the power differences on the new GTR engines differ greatly?
Benni.
Benni.
Last edited by Benni; 11-05-2009 at 09:02 PM.
11-05-2009, 09:15 PM
#77
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCZDodUAn8Y
This is the fan we use on the RR next to my new unit
Mark
This is the fan we use on the RR next to my new unit
Mark
Hmm, breezy
11-05-2009, 09:31 PM
#78
PassionFord Post Troll
Chip has mentioned it but i thought i would bring it up again.
For all the people that say that the holy grail of engine calibration is "live mapping" i would have to disagree.
Datalogging is one of the best ways i have found to map a car. You can log data from many inputs and then simply change the ecu map whilst sat having a cup of tea.
For all the people that say that the holy grail of engine calibration is "live mapping" i would have to disagree.
Datalogging is one of the best ways i have found to map a car. You can log data from many inputs and then simply change the ecu map whilst sat having a cup of tea.
11-05-2009, 10:35 PM
#79
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Off topic but
I'm just reading 'Cosworth, The Search For Power' and in one of the chapters I think on DFV's it says about how some engines made up to 30bhp more than others on the engine dyno, all made to the same spec by Cosworth, it was infuriating Keith Duckworth to the point where everytime it happend he'd have it stripped, measured and inspected to see why and even he never managed to figure it out....
I'm just reading 'Cosworth, The Search For Power' and in one of the chapters I think on DFV's it says about how some engines made up to 30bhp more than others on the engine dyno, all made to the same spec by Cosworth, it was infuriating Keith Duckworth to the point where everytime it happend he'd have it stripped, measured and inspected to see why and even he never managed to figure it out....
11-05-2009, 10:39 PM
#80
But Im not convinced on the power outputs varying as much as some journalists claim anyway TBH given the level of information the ECU has available to it, if Nissan wanted them all within a couple of BHP then they would be, so the most likely reason is because they have deliberately given the press fleet a little more to wow the journalists test driving them IMHO
Thats only my opinion though, I cant profess to be any sort of GTR expert and have only answered that question at all because it was specifically aimed at me.