our Final new development for L8 ECU's "Flat Shift"
03-04-2009, 09:09 AM
#1
our Final new development for L8 ECU's "Flat Shift"
Well, you know how it is, you say:
"Thats it, no more development on these damn dinosaur ECU's"
And then some customer comes along with an interesting enquiry that gets you to thinking, well maybe yes, we could do one more i guess as that is an interesting idea!
A chap called Jim Semple with a very nice RS200 kit car we built an engine for and mapped has bought himself a bit of a tasty GearTronics gear shift controller. These controllers work, in essence, by adding a computer controlled solenoid or two to the gearbox linkage which means you can attach paddles or buttons to the steering column and then use these to shift. Now, whilst these work fine in any manual car once setup, you still need to lift the throttle to take the load of the gears to enable the shift to happen. You don't of course need the clutch if its a dog box, so shifts are fast, nothing new there...
Our customer thought it would be nice if we could automate the power release on command from the shift computer meaning that as he hit the paddle, the controller sent the L8 Ecu a command, and the L8 responded by momentarily releasing the engines power to allow a gearshift. As soon as the gearbox controller is happy the shift has been performed, it tells the ecu to go back on the power. Result = No lifting the foot and no real loss of boost pressure, allied to a 1/2 second shift speed. We have called it L8 Flatshift.
Naturally its only compatible with similar controllers, but it can be made to work by anyone who wants to send the simple trigger signal to the L8 by other means... I will be interested to see this system used on other installations with normal dog boxes.
Price = TBA.
Many thanks to Mr Jim Semple, Mr Nikola Radenkovic and Geartronics Mr Neil Wallace for their help in this project.
"Thats it, no more development on these damn dinosaur ECU's"
And then some customer comes along with an interesting enquiry that gets you to thinking, well maybe yes, we could do one more i guess as that is an interesting idea!
A chap called Jim Semple with a very nice RS200 kit car we built an engine for and mapped has bought himself a bit of a tasty GearTronics gear shift controller. These controllers work, in essence, by adding a computer controlled solenoid or two to the gearbox linkage which means you can attach paddles or buttons to the steering column and then use these to shift. Now, whilst these work fine in any manual car once setup, you still need to lift the throttle to take the load of the gears to enable the shift to happen. You don't of course need the clutch if its a dog box, so shifts are fast, nothing new there...
Our customer thought it would be nice if we could automate the power release on command from the shift computer meaning that as he hit the paddle, the controller sent the L8 Ecu a command, and the L8 responded by momentarily releasing the engines power to allow a gearshift. As soon as the gearbox controller is happy the shift has been performed, it tells the ecu to go back on the power. Result = No lifting the foot and no real loss of boost pressure, allied to a 1/2 second shift speed. We have called it L8 Flatshift.
Naturally its only compatible with similar controllers, but it can be made to work by anyone who wants to send the simple trigger signal to the L8 by other means... I will be interested to see this system used on other installations with normal dog boxes.
Price = TBA.
Many thanks to Mr Jim Semple, Mr Nikola Radenkovic and Geartronics Mr Neil Wallace for their help in this project.
Last edited by Stu @ M Developments; 03-04-2009 at 09:24 AM.
03-04-2009, 09:12 AM
#2
Here is how the geartronics kit works out of interest.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD_Du...eature=related
Extremely impressive...
One in a sierra...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0Vu0...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD_Du...eature=related
Extremely impressive...
One in a sierra...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0Vu0...eature=related
Last edited by Stu @ M Developments; 03-04-2009 at 09:15 AM.
03-04-2009, 09:13 AM
#3
Professional Waffler
well done again stu!
i started to design a paddle shift system for a 4x4 gearbox, but then my head went onto another project, and i never got to get to trials! DOH
i started to design a paddle shift system for a 4x4 gearbox, but then my head went onto another project, and i never got to get to trials! DOH
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03-04-2009, 10:14 AM
#8
stu, Jim brought the steering wheel round mine the other week to show me the paddles are made of proper carbon fibre! looks really good, Jim is a real good friend and this latest development to his 200 really has got him excited like a kiddy in a sweet shop! he has been on with it on the quiet (from his wife lol) for a while now, really looking forward to testing this one out as even with the normal sequential change the car is a propper weapon!!
hope the work on it's going ok and well done for taking on this project.
steve
hope the work on it's going ok and well done for taking on this project.
steve
Last edited by The Youth.; 03-04-2009 at 10:16 AM.
03-04-2009, 10:17 AM
#9
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Its not a unique feature on ECU's and hardly rocket science so I dont see the harm of telling us the method used.
The actual implementation of the method is of no concern to me and that is the bit that should stay secret away from the chip copiers out there
I just asked my question as I was genuinely interested and thought it may give you useful feedback for this thread
Good luck with it
Last edited by ECU Monitor Enthusiast; 03-04-2009 at 10:20 AM.
03-04-2009, 10:18 AM
#10
stu, Jim brought the steering wheel round mine the other week to show me the paddles are made of proper carbon fibre! looks really good, Jim is a real good friend and this latest development to his 200 really has got him excited like a kiddy in a sweet shop! he has been on with it on the quiet (from his wife lol) for a while now, really looking forward to testing this one out as even with the normal sequential change the car is a propper weapon!!
hope the work on it's going ok and well done for taking on this project.
steve
hope the work on it's going ok and well done for taking on this project.
steve
Jims a great fella, I enjoyed spending a little time in the car mapping with him yesterday as he needed some boost recovering due to an actuator change. He is back at 2.3bar again now and also has ALS to boot.
Jim was here from 9am Wednesday until about midnight on Thursday, so a divorce may be imminent. lol.
03-04-2009, 10:44 AM
#11
the boost loss was down to me lol, as he will have told you it snapped at croft and I just set the new one best I could to get him on track again.. was quick enough even in lower boost mode!!
As said Jim is a real gent and great friend.
steve
As said Jim is a real gent and great friend.
steve
03-04-2009, 11:44 AM
#14
jim only got his hands dirty by opening the boot to allow my m8 to fit it!!!, who then proceeded to lengthen the rod to increase the boost lol, understandably jim was then captain slow until I stepped in and shortened it, but as we had to test it during the sessions it was hit and miss and I lost my bottle approaching 2 bar..
lol at "meddling" thats what friends are for!!
steve
lol at "meddling" thats what friends are for!!
steve
Last edited by The Youth.; 03-04-2009 at 01:37 PM.
03-04-2009, 12:20 PM
#15
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I should have known better to let you know who lengthen it. I did set it up my self for going to MSD as I had to cut the actuator rod to get it short enough to get the right amount of adjustment. I left it on low..ish boost so I wouldn't give it too much and damage anything.
Stu's private test facilities was a bit on the busy side with other cars last night, they all must have been out mapping as well..LOL
It certainly flys now, I just need to get the Geartronics system mapped now and it will be all systems go, well apart from most likely having to put a new clutch in.
Many thanks to Stu, Kenny, Nick and Will for helping me out with the flatshift modification.
Jim
Stu's private test facilities was a bit on the busy side with other cars last night, they all must have been out mapping as well..LOL
It certainly flys now, I just need to get the Geartronics system mapped now and it will be all systems go, well apart from most likely having to put a new clutch in.
Many thanks to Stu, Kenny, Nick and Will for helping me out with the flatshift modification.
Jim
Last edited by Jim S; 03-04-2009 at 12:23 PM.
03-04-2009, 12:49 PM
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What's that massive rattle every time the guy in the Sierra depresses the clutch?
Looks quite amusing really
Changes gear pretty damn fast too although shift 2 to 3 seemed quite slow in comparison to the other shifts to me
Looks quite amusing really
Changes gear pretty damn fast too although shift 2 to 3 seemed quite slow in comparison to the other shifts to me
03-04-2009, 01:47 PM
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That video was in the early development stages. You just have to listen to the F3000 change gear to see how quick it is as they all use this system.
As it runs closed loop changes are anywhere between 50 -250ms, try timing a normal change from the time you go from lifting from full power to back on full power again.
Hopefully the link below will work, it shows a Suzuki Swift getting tested. The little blip you hear as it goes along the test track is it changing gear, the in car shots show it in semi-automatic mode.
Jim
As it runs closed loop changes are anywhere between 50 -250ms, try timing a normal change from the time you go from lifting from full power to back on full power again.
Hopefully the link below will work, it shows a Suzuki Swift getting tested. The little blip you hear as it goes along the test track is it changing gear, the in car shots show it in semi-automatic mode.
Jim
05-04-2009, 01:43 PM
#26
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Oh dear Jim, where will all this end lol.
This is going to be some car on tack this year.
So what will you be entering?, as it seems to be well over the needs of a track car now mate ????
This is going to be some car on tack this year.
So what will you be entering?, as it seems to be well over the needs of a track car now mate ????
05-04-2009, 06:22 PM
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Clive
I've been planning the "Geartronics" system for around two years now, it's just taken a bit longer to arrive, mainly due to having to get some special parts made in New Zealand for the box and then having to get it rebuilt after breaking it last year....Oh and the cost
If I can keep it running for any length of time then it's hopefully going to get some stick.
For the "Northern Saloons & Sports Cars" I need to get a pair of door bars put in, a new harness, plumbed in fire extinguisher system and a higher spec race suit.....Oh and a bit of bottle to go circuit racing LOL
Jim
I've been planning the "Geartronics" system for around two years now, it's just taken a bit longer to arrive, mainly due to having to get some special parts made in New Zealand for the box and then having to get it rebuilt after breaking it last year....Oh and the cost
If I can keep it running for any length of time then it's hopefully going to get some stick.
For the "Northern Saloons & Sports Cars" I need to get a pair of door bars put in, a new harness, plumbed in fire extinguisher system and a higher spec race suit.....Oh and a bit of bottle to go circuit racing LOL
Jim
Last edited by Jim S; 05-04-2009 at 06:26 PM.
05-04-2009, 07:09 PM
#28
what about time attack jim?
http://www.timeattack.co.uk/
the gearbox /chassis work should help offset the lack of power compared to what some of the other entrants have..
was great to see the box working from the flippers today jim will be awsome when setup..
steve
http://www.timeattack.co.uk/
the gearbox /chassis work should help offset the lack of power compared to what some of the other entrants have..
was great to see the box working from the flippers today jim will be awsome when setup..
steve
Last edited by The Youth.; 05-04-2009 at 07:13 PM.
06-04-2009, 07:35 AM
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I suppose you could fit the "Flatshift" to a car with a normal gearbox and then fit a clutch switch so that would activate the cut in power as you change gear but I'm not too sure how good it would be compared to a normal gearchange. As Steve said it has all been designed around using a sequential dog box.
But there is only one way to find out and that's try it.
Jim
But there is only one way to find out and that's try it.
Jim
Last edited by Jim S; 06-04-2009 at 07:38 AM.
06-04-2009, 07:48 AM
#33
Testing the future
that is basically how quickshifters work on motorbikes, although they have a microswitch operated by the gear change pedal. although bike gearboxes are quicker to shift up clutchless anyway.
but with a conventional gearbox on a turbo engine there should be some advantage to keeping the throttle open so that airflow through the engine is maintained which should mean that turbo speed is reduced less
but with a conventional gearbox on a turbo engine there should be some advantage to keeping the throttle open so that airflow through the engine is maintained which should mean that turbo speed is reduced less
06-04-2009, 08:49 AM
#35
Advanced PassionFord User
Whose box are you using Jim? Is it a hewland? I assume it's pneumatic.....Neil's products are immense for the cost....really top bloke and loves talbot sunbeams to boot......
06-04-2009, 09:53 AM
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Great development Stu. 
A flat shift system was the only thing Elite told me they would "prefer" I did not use with their sequential box. They told me getting the cut and re-introduction of power correct was so so critical that its not unheard of for boxes to get damaged trying to get this right.
I think at the time they said only 2 of the kind of box I have had gone bang and both were on cars with flat shift systems being tested.
I would love to use it on mine but just dont think I could face the potential bill for an exploded box!
A flat shift system was the only thing Elite told me they would "prefer" I did not use with their sequential box. They told me getting the cut and re-introduction of power correct was so so critical that its not unheard of for boxes to get damaged trying to get this right.
I think at the time they said only 2 of the kind of box I have had gone bang and both were on cars with flat shift systems being tested.
I would love to use it on mine but just dont think I could face the potential bill for an exploded box!
06-04-2009, 01:51 PM
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Yes you can damage your gearbox if things go wrong with a flatshift cut but the "Geartronics" system has a very well thought out control unit and is fully closed loop which is unlike most other shifters which just rely on a fixed engine cut for all gearchanges and no closed loop and if you don't get it right then as you say it could be ££££'s to repair.
Jim
Jim
Last edited by Jim S; 06-04-2009 at 02:03 PM.
