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NHS resources and people who dont help themselves?

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Old 20-01-2009, 10:52 AM
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Chip
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Default NHS resources and people who dont help themselves?

Just wondered people's opinions on this subject.


Hundreds of thousands of people are forced to wait for operations on the NHS because it is under resourced and realistically I dont see how more money can be put in so I figure it needs to stop wasting money on people who cause themselves to need treatment deliberately.

Personally I believe that every man/woman/child in this country should be entitled to NHS help for any condition providing they also help themselves, but not if they arent prepared to do so.

So for example, in the case of someone 30 stone in weight, if the doctor tells them to slim down or they will suffer health consequence, and they dont consider their health important enough to put effort into slimming down, then why should they consider their health important enough to spend my taxes on, after all it takes me a lifetime to pay enough tax for a couple of operations, but it would take them only a year of sensible diet and exercise to not need those operations.

Likewise smoking, if people want to smoke its their choice, but I dont feel my taxes should be spent on treating lung cancer for anyone who chooses it.


Would be almost impossible to legislate, and no doubt would breach some stupid fucking human rights law to do so, but I just wondered what other people felt about this?
Old 20-01-2009, 11:00 AM
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Money should be taken off the scrounging cunts claiming benefits (Unless obviously a genuine reason) and given to the NHS! NHS saves likes. Chavs take up space and money

Then from what Ive seen the NHS could spend their time and money alot better. 4hour wait in A&E stops alot of people going when they are ill, which takes lives. When you go there mostly people are standing round chatting.

As for stopping people receiving medical treatment I don't agree with it. I used to smoke and gave up 2 years ago. I may still die of cancer, so does that mean I shouldn't receive treatment? What about the people who find out they have cancer before having time to quit? Do they not receive help?? Not everyone goes to Doctor's or Hospital when they feel ill, so things get diagnosed late.

I think non UK citizens should have health insurance and not use the NHS tho!
Old 20-01-2009, 11:01 AM
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why not make people pay for self inflicted harm ,needing treatment.
ie, if you smoke,then need treatment for lung cancer,then you have to pay for it.
go out ,get drunk,and need treatment,then you pay for it.
ect ect ect.
i have paid into the nhs for over 30 years,and took very little out.
why can a immigrant ,never paid anything into the system,get the same treatment?
Old 20-01-2009, 11:03 AM
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very difficult subject! - but i am of the same opinion as you, if people dont help themselves then i havent got alot of sympathy

i think cases have to be taken on their own merits; and i think your opinion may change if the person in question was a wife/ girlfriend/ dad or whatever and you were very close to them.

as an example - would you still have the same opinion if your wife/ brother/ sister got addicted to heroin and couldnt kick the habbit? what if they were working and paid taxes etc before they got addicted.

but on the whole i tend to agree

good thread!
Old 20-01-2009, 11:04 AM
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i agree with you on this one, fat fooks that eat there way into hospital and poor health need to pay more for the service's they use. this would thin the fookers out it chokes me to hear what the mrs tells me (A&E nurse) she gets moaned at by fat coonts with heart problems bad joints back trouble all due to there exesive weight. let the fookers suffer as they have done it to themselves. stupid people on the dole that never work should not be alowd to bread they just add to the problem most are fat stupid and on invalidity benefit due to poor health bought on by poor eating and being thick lazy fookers. anyway rant over lol i moved away from the uk as i was sick of putting up with this shite good luck your gona need it
Old 20-01-2009, 11:04 AM
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I fully agree with all of the above
Old 20-01-2009, 11:11 AM
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it was on the news the other day that the council in kent is giving peole £70 to lose upto 15lbs in weight, £120 to lose 30lbs and over £450 if they lose more than 50lbs

that'll be kent skint then
Old 20-01-2009, 11:14 AM
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the four hr wait in A&E came about due to change's by your GP not wanting to work mate' he gets paid per person on his books and is run for profit not for the good of the countrys health. doc's get paid very well for the hours it's a joke you could not get an apointment at my old GP so folk go to the local A&E with all there illness's as they can't get in and need some form of treatment so go to the hospital and clog it up
Old 20-01-2009, 11:15 AM
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Agree 100% with chip.
Old 20-01-2009, 11:15 AM
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the country is a joke

there was a guy who worked with us who used to boast that his old man couldn't be sacked from his job even though he couldn;t do the job he was paid to do, so spent most of the day sitting around the office

apparently he's smoked a lot and was at the stage of his life where walking was a struggle for him as he was so out of breath, so there was no way he oculd do his delivery job or driving a van and loading and unloading heavy items

he couldn't see what was wrong with it because it was his old man, but i was sat there thinking "if he can't do his job then why doesn't he just stop being an arse?"
Old 20-01-2009, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by FletchCossie
As for stopping people receiving medical treatment I don't agree with it. I used to smoke and gave up 2 years ago. I may still die of cancer, so does that mean I shouldn't receive treatment? What about the people who find out they have cancer before having time to quit? Do they not receive help?? Not everyone goes to Doctor's or Hospital when they feel ill, so things get diagnosed late.
ANYONE in the UK who is a smoker currently, KNOWS they are risking lung cancer.

If the system was brought in then it would only be fair to say if people didnt stop by a certain time as it was introduced.
So give 2 years notice that as of 2012 smokers will no longer recieve lung cancer treatment, and anyone who smokes AFTER that cutoff period, is excluded from free treatment.

So no, I wouldnt include you, as you have stopped.



Lloyd, im only talking about NHS funding, so yes of course people could pay for their own treatment if they wanted to.

Last edited by Chip; 20-01-2009 at 11:19 AM.
Old 20-01-2009, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by badnews
the four hr wait in A&E came about due to change's by your GP not wanting to work mate' he gets paid per person on his books and is run for profit not for the good of the countrys health. doc's get paid very well for the hours it's a joke you could not get an apointment at my old GP so folk go to the local A&E with all there illness's as they can't get in and need some form of treatment so go to the hospital and clog it up
I get appointments all the time mate and go sometimes twice a week.
Old 20-01-2009, 11:21 AM
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my wife zoe who is an A&E & INTESIVE CARE NURSE hates it when the homemless get so drunk because they know they will get picked up and given a bed
Old 20-01-2009, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Lloyd
why not make people pay for self inflicted harm ,needing treatment.
ie, if you smoke,then need treatment for lung cancer,then you have to pay for it.
go out ,get drunk,and need treatment,then you pay for it.
ect ect ect.
i have paid into the nhs for over 30 years,and took very little out.
why can a immigrant ,never paid anything into the system,get the same treatment?
What about track days... an accident on a track day where you go in effect to drive at speeds which would be dangerous and illegal on a public road. Would a crash here be considered self inflicted?
Old 20-01-2009, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Chip
ANYONE in the UK who is a smoker currently, KNOWS they are risking lung cancer.

If the system was brought in then it would only be fair to say if people didnt stop by a certain time as it was introduced.
So give 2 years notice that as of 2012 smokers will no longer recieve lung cancer treatment, and anyone who smokes AFTER that cutoff period, is excluded from free treatment.

So no, I wouldnt include you, as you have stopped.
That is totally fair and I would agree with it mate When you running for Government
Old 20-01-2009, 11:26 AM
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Totally agree with you Chip

Makes my blood boil watching people who wont help them selves recive better treatment than say my gran who has paid her way her whole working life. I think everyone should have there own health insurance would make thing fairer
Old 20-01-2009, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by FletchCossie
I get appointments all the time mate and go sometimes twice a week.
so you go on a regular basis for treatment if i rang i could never get in on the day, i had to ring before 8.30 to try and get in the phone was constantly engaged and when you got through all the days bookings had gone and you could NOT book for the next day
after you had been and seen a dr youcould then book follow up apointments
Old 20-01-2009, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Turbocabbie
What about track days... an accident on a track day where you go in effect to drive at speeds which would be dangerous and illegal on a public road. Would a crash here be considered self inflicted?
yes definatly,you should cover yourself with insurance if you are going to do something dangerous.
Old 20-01-2009, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Turbocabbie
What about track days... an accident on a track day where you go in effect to drive at speeds which would be dangerous and illegal on a public road. Would a crash here be considered self inflicted?
Its not something I had considered TBH, trackday accidents are fundamentally cheaper to treat in general than chronic conditions, and are far rarer too.

I can see your point though.
Old 20-01-2009, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocabbie
What about track days... an accident on a track day where you go in effect to drive at speeds which would be dangerous and illegal on a public road. Would a crash here be considered self inflicted?


hang on we do pay in and this would be an accident so this would be coverd by the NHS. it is not about accident's it's about the the strain of smokers and fat fookers that is the bigest problem not the odd accident
Old 20-01-2009, 11:42 AM
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With regards to smoking I think all tobacco products should be made illegal, or at least given the same classification as cannabis. That way you'd all but eliminate the problem.
And yes I do smoke myself.
Old 20-01-2009, 11:52 AM
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Agree with topic starter
Old 20-01-2009, 12:12 PM
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Smokers... A: pay far more ciggy tax than they cost the NHS when they die, and B: die early so don't claim so much in pensions.

So maybe smokers aren't the point of this thread, but fat people certainly are.

But what about mountain climbers? Do we go get them when they fall off or not?
Old 20-01-2009, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by TurboShed
Smokers... A: pay far more ciggy tax than they cost the NHS when they die, and B: die early so don't claim so much in pensions.

So maybe smokers aren't the point of this thread, but fat people certainly are.

But what about mountain climbers? Do we go get them when they fall off or not?

Depends wether there fat or thin mountain climbers
Old 20-01-2009, 12:50 PM
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not seen to many fat climbers
Old 20-01-2009, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by badnews
not seen to many fat climbers
Because they fell down and no one went to get them
Old 20-01-2009, 01:17 PM
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What about people that drink too much, i.e. 90% of the population, are they included in this regime?
Old 20-01-2009, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by EIL132
What about people that drink too much, i.e. 90% of the population, are they included in this regime?
Yes, if anyone is drinking an excessive amount, then I dont see why I should have to pay to replace the liver that they dont give a fucking toss about in the first place TBH.
Old 20-01-2009, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Chip
Yes, if anyone is drinking an excessive amount, then I dont see why I should have to pay to replace the liver that they dont give a fucking toss about in the first place TBH.
So you stick to the guidlines and dont get wellied on nights out? If you were to class anyone that partakes in drug abuse, which alcohol is, then you wouldn't get any care either
Old 20-01-2009, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by EIL132
So you stick to the guidlines and dont get wellied on nights out? If you were to class anyone that partakes in drug abuse, which alcohol is, then you wouldn't get any care either
I dont average during a year, more units than is medically recomended anyway. so in my personal case, not an issue.
I probably drink more than the recomend amount for a night only a few times a year too, I drink very little indeed compared to most people.

Even those people getting trolleyed once a week has a pretty limited effect on liver etc anyway though, its people drinking excessively every single day that would be the issue.

The key thing would be defining at what point consumption became excessive, and how to monitor it.

I think if they take your liver out and its actually been pickled in scotch, they should just put it back in again not give you a donor one
Old 20-01-2009, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Chip
Yes, if anyone is drinking an excessive amount, then I dont see why I should have to pay to replace the liver that they dont give a fucking toss about in the first place TBH.
Along with all the damage done to property while drunk, damage done to other people, and the cost to put it right.......
Old 20-01-2009, 02:04 PM
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going to a funeral tomorrow of a guy who drank himself to death
even when they said he was going to kill himself he couldn't stop
so what do you do for these people?

are they selfish? or are they idiots?

where is the line drawn?

in principle it's a great idea, it really is, but like all principles, when you need to use them, things tend to look a whole lot different
Old 20-01-2009, 02:17 PM
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the thing is, alcoholism is classed as a disease and that means anyone that is an alchoholic can claim full benifits and get housing with little or no questions asked. the way the system is set up the people that are claiming housing etc can just do so without having to answer to anyone/thing even when theres help avaluable to them which they choose to ignore.

the nhs was set up for an ideal world in mind, unfortunatly we dont live on one and it seems that more and more people are happy to take full advantage without any intention of helping themselves

to police everything would cause even more paper work and put even more strain on the system, which in tern would no doubt end up with people who legitametly need treatment not getting it.
Old 20-01-2009, 02:51 PM
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with this way of thinking what happens if a certain illness has made you a fat f**k, or if a motorcyclist has a smash and needs loads of operations on his legs etc, in my opinion the strain on the NHS is down to imigaration, my wifes a nurse and sees families bringing reletives over who cant even speak english just for treatment which is not avalible elsewhere and not paid a bean in national insurance, im not against imigration just think we are an easy touch
Old 20-01-2009, 03:03 PM
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major problem with this plan is that the smokers and heavy drinkers are paying for the NHS, if they stopped smoking and drinking, the NHS would have no money at all.

so the smokers and drinkers should be able to stop Chip from going to their hospitals <- note smilie
Old 20-01-2009, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by D16PJM
with this way of thinking what happens if a certain illness has made you a fat f**k, or if a motorcyclist has a smash and needs loads of operations on his legs etc, in my opinion the strain on the NHS is down to imigaration, my wifes a nurse and sees families bringing reletives over who cant even speak english just for treatment which is not avalible elsewhere and not paid a bean in national insurance, im not against imigration just think we are an easy touch

quite an easy fix for that though, make health insurance compulsory for all imigrants, and anyone who wants to use the nhs who isnt of national origin should of at least payed national insurance for 10 years.
Old 20-01-2009, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by FasterFords
major problem with this plan is that the smokers and heavy drinkers are paying for the NHS, if they stopped smoking and drinking, the NHS would have no money at all.
As far as im aware thats rubbish and they cost FAR more than they put into the system currently.
Old 20-01-2009, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by FletchCossie
That is totally fair and I would agree with it mate When you running for Government
I have emailed the PM and asked him for his approval.

We are going to need a few votes though
Old 20-01-2009, 03:32 PM
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Good plan in principle but how on earth do you formalise it and where do you draw the line?

Ok Fat people and associated health problems, most may be classed as self inflicted

So what about injuries from Sport or DIY? A Sunday League players broken leg or someone who breaks their thumb with a hammer?

What about my knee problems that only surfaced 5 years after I stopped being a competetive athlete that were due to my training?

I totally agree with you but to formalise and administer it ( with all the legal battles you'd have challenging decisions ) would probably cost more than you'd save!

Good job creation potential though!!!
Old 20-01-2009, 03:44 PM
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The sentiment is fine, but the biggest waste of cash in the NHS is and always has been the running of it, too few people, getting way too much, using agency staff at 300% the cost of NHS staff.
You don't want "your" cash wasted on smokers, FACT smokers pay more in taxes on there products than it cots the NHS to treat them, vastly more, smokers also pay other taxes too.
THey need to stop NHS tourism, currently waiting a knee op, that cost £9700 here privately, but £1600 in france, WHY.
A 30 stone man is NOT in a month of sundays going to lose enough(in a year) to meet the unrealistic BMI that has not changed since it's introduction, I can't see the 30 stone man doing a marathon a week just because he is told to.
Some people are like that because they CAN'T exercise, not because they won't, one shoe does not fit all.
I am totally anti smoke, my dad had throat cancer around 5 years ago and lost his voice box, now he has another lump appeared, but I respect smokers rights to treatment that their enormous taxers help to pay for, same with liver problems, from alchhol.
It used to be customary in the army to be GIVEN FREE cigarettes in your earlier years, so this was not exactly bright was it, and paid for by the GOVERMENT.
tabetha


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