Lloyd

what parts would i need to build a zetec bottom end to take this sort of power,and where from?
iam not bothered about the turbo side as i was hoping to use lots of nitro and a maximiser to get the air and fuel into the engine .

Rab

Steel rods, forged pistons, proper inlet manifold, bit of head work and plenty of boost should see 450bhp. If you had gas a T34 would do for the turbo.

Lloyd

so is a standard crank strong enougth,and a standard block?

Gordon1

take it you are thinking of putting a std head on ?

Big Will_

Just.

I would recommend having both of them thoroughly crack tested/X-rayed and then look into cryo treating them.

Lloyd

standard valves with some porting,what head gaskets are available?multi layer?

Gordon1

you can get mls or use the std frs

Lloyd

good, is that on a silver or black top engine?

Gordon1

what engine are you going to use

andy130

iTrader: (2)

i dont about the crank but the standard block can take 500bhp but after that u need a wrc block hope that helps u mate

Rab

Bit of a lottery that one. Apparently some are fine, but some let go.

Some shot peening wouldn't go amiss and as Will (who is undoubtedly the expert for zetec stuff imho) says crack testing isn't too expensive.

Sorry for the mad length of time to post but Funniest ever you've been framed is on

pa_sjo

I've never seen a 500bhp zetec break on a standard block or crank (when spec'd/built/tuned correctly).

Lloyd

thats what iam trying to work out,silver top would be cheapest i guess.
its only going to be used for track and drag racing.so wont get many miles put on it,and it wont be highly stressed unless it on gas.

crazycage

use the st170 head with the vvt, there good for 400bhp standard

Big Will_

ST170 head would be the best way to go as you're straight away onto a lairy set of cams, far superior flow figures, better EGT resistance from exhaust valves and solid lifters.

Get yourself a billet geared oil pump and the ST170 head will take 8200rpm on standard valvetrain before you get valve bounce.

tarmac terriost

std rs focus head gaskets are very good and seem to take that power
other than that get hold of a mountune wrc muit-layer one but not cheap,450bhp in fwd car going to be a hand ful, but fun to drive

bits needed for the build:-

forged low comp pistons
forged rods
uprated head gasket
apr head bolts
uprated breather system
zetec turbo cams with pulleys and a underdrive pulley
bigger injectors,fuel rail + reg
chip or custom engine management
free flowing exhaust and manifold
free flowing inlet manifold
big valve head with a ported+polished ports
uprated main bearings and big end
uprated fuel pump
uprated oil and water pump
cooler spark plugs
msd coil pack
magncor lead 8.5 mm

have i missed anything lol


some useful info might be some good to you

aporox standard component power potential

crank 500bhp
block 500bhp
rods 270bhp
pistons 250bhp
inlet manifold n/a 180bhp
forced 300bp

intake pipe work 180bhp
airbox 150 bhp
injectors 170bhp
fuel 180bhp
unmodded cylinder head 180bhp n/a
forced 350bhp


diameters for turbo exhaust systems
200 - 350 bhp 2.5 ins
400 - 500 bhp 3.0 ins
550+ 3.5ins




calibre pistons can be used with standard rods but need a slight tweek to gugeon pin
the block will need to be bore out +0.5mm to get them to fit to produce about 270bhp anything more will result in rod through block

around 350bhp mark stardard oil breather system starts to get choke.
this can be further improved ,while still using the standard front mounted oil breather on the block by plumbing this into to a aftermarket pot for eg baileys,spec etc


400-500bhp
to get more power from your zetec,you are goung to have to start modding the head,and ditch the 2.0 cams in favour of properly spec'd cams,piper/newman can give you a custom grind like a cosworth bd10 that will be more than suitable.
the lastest developments in retro fitting heads use the st170 head which come with larger ports and valves to see close to 400 bhp with no head work.
you'll need a custom inlet system and a tuular exhaust manifold to get air in and out at this level.
750cc and upward injectors will be needed to and a good head gasket (a focus rs one is good for 450bhp,but make sure cooling system is up to the job dropping the act and water temps down


there is serveral ways of lowering compression

1) decomplate,these are a thin steel plate around 1mm thick that are bonded to the top of the block.
there are draw backs to this set up you can run big boost around 10psi to 1 bar max or you will blow the plate clean off the block face

2) some people have used std 1.8/2.0 bottom ends and have simply skimmed 1mm of the top of the pistons ,but this has drawbacks taking metal off the crown will weaken the pistons but have known to produce 250bnp on 1 bar of boost without any problems if you start to up the power more you will crack the pistons

3) fit some calibre/caviler red top xe forged pistons or fit some zetec turbo ones
(check the states for zetec pistons)

4) another option would be block swop
for a rs focus block as it runs forged rods and pistons std and is good for 400bhp mark,also has the oil return to the block to run the turbo

another block option is the famous st170 block which runs forged pistons and rods to,which is also good for 300 bhp mark but if your planning a high reving engine you will need to change bearing caps for heavy duty copper lead ones as this is the weak point of the block also will need to moddify the block for oil feed and return for turbo

pa_sjo

tarmac terriost- out of interest, how much of that have you proven by testing yourself?

crazycage

i hope he says all of it !! you seem to question everyone on here

pa_sjo

That's because most people talk a lot of crap..

Lloyd

cheers lots of good info on here. will t2 management be ok on a engine like this?

pa_sjo

It'd be very ok.

tarmac terriost

have tested somethings myself,but also have read tuning mags etc and have been told things over time by different people & tuners who have done things or have shown me things

somethings that you get told are true,somethings are completly bullshit,the thing is that you learn something new every day and that if you dont do something you wont learn by your mistakes etc
also didn't say i was right,was just giving some infomation that i have obtaine over time which i thought might be use ful to him as a guide

ps how much have you tested ?

pani_k

iTrader: (1)

Sounds familiar, I've read the above before in a magazine about zetec tuning but was geared mostly for the silvertop. I wouldn't imagine those figures would be too far out what components can take and you could use those as rough guidelines.

rst-g

speak to ian howell about zetecs he's ya man!!!

Lloyd

thanks for the info, i will go and make a shopping list.

Turbo Zetec

iTrader: (1)

i'm afraid that i'm going to agree with pa_sjo here. Most of whats been posted on here is either bad advice or bullshit!

Drop me a pm if you want some half sensible advice

project rs

out of interest how many of these have you dealt with as i only know of a few people actually running this power and most run wrc blocks

Lloyd

would a st 170 block and crank be ok to 450 bhp?are the 6 speed gearboxs any good,or can they be uprated.

Tim

iTrader: (1)

the problem EVERYONE has here isnt what ur looking at all the headbolts for these engines will yield and the head will lift before you break a good bottom end ,sure it will be ok for a short time but its the same with the cvh and the zetec ,yb is different etc but thats the problem most will have esp with the high cr people try to run theses days , good rods and pistons wont be ur problem.
tim

Lloyd

hello tim,cant the block be machined to take cossy long studs? or something similar.?
i only need to run 250bhp out of the engine,as the other 200 will come from the nos.

Tim

iTrader: (1)

Dont know pal Ian is the man on the zetec etc sure he will have the best info for u
tim

pa_sjo

Zetec has a better design for head bolts than a cossie actually, so much less chance of it lifting.

Big Will_

The ST170 block and crank are the same as normal blacktop ones from memory, the Focus RS block was found to have a higher hardness rating when tested.

The 6 speeder out the ST170 is a fairly bombproof box mate - can't go far wrong with it - and if you can pull the revs it's got nice gearing for top speed runs as well... Drop a Quaife ATB into it and you're sorted!

Turbo Zetec

iTrader: (1)

the st170 is different from the blacktop block in the mondeo, unsure about the focus though.

As for the head bolts, the zetec ones are less likely to bugger the block like cossie ones do, hence there's no point having long studs, but i can see tims point. The zetec ones are tiny! Only m10 in size! I considered having some m12 ones made, but to be honest it would probably weaken the block.

SiZT

ST170 bottom end has standard crank, standard black-top block but with forged rods and pistons. tbh, just with new rods and pistons and new bearings the bottom end should be fine.

Turbo Zetec

iTrader: (1)

for fuck sake, more bullshit! Sorry to be so harsh, but have you looked at st170 pistons before? Or spoken to mahle about them? They are infact cast!

The block is not the same as the mondy blacktop, it resembles the silvertop more! Or, more to the point, it resembles the yank block.

Take a look at my project thread if you don't believe me!

Lloyd

i have just been looking at your thread,looking good mate.like the indepth into the machining.
couldnt you get any lower comp pistons? or some shorter rods/piston combination.

Big Will_

Martin,

You should be perfectly safe in moving up to M11 ARP Stud & Nut Kit.

I think from memory the Evo 7 kit was the one i was going to use...

Obviously machining will need to be done to suit - but you're more than capable of that...


Oh - and the ST bottom end is stronger than a standard Zetec - but not 450bhp strong!!!

Lloyd

Oh - and the ST bottom end is stronger than a standard Zetec - but not 450bhp strong!!![/quote]
yes but would it be ok at 450 with the rods and pistons changed?

Turbo Zetec

iTrader: (1)

i had considered it, but i'm trying to prove what can be done on a budget JE will make the pistons i need if these ones fail... but tbh i doubt they will.

will - i'd thought about m11 too... did you look at the lengths of the evo studs then? the good news is that they're only about £40 from the states


Lloyd - why use a turbo? you could do a 250bhp NA screamer and throw 200bhp of gas in with it . just look at the opposition... seems to work for them!

what are you going to use the car for mostly?