glancy2081

phil how tight the bolts are is really irelevant its the stretch of the bolts that creates the clamping force. this cant be measured with a torque wrench

foreigneRS

if they've stretched, then the nut will no longer be as tight

glancy2081

using a torque wrench does not mean that you are giving the bolts the same clamping force though all it means is that the bolt took x amount of torque

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

http://anotherfordforum.com/forums/s...?t=3585&page=3

TiB

iTrader: (1)

I would of thought it possible for the stud to stretch under severe pressure to release the clamping force enough for the gasket to give way but return to its original length and tension afterwards?

Out of curiosty... what sort or cylinder pressure does a high torque diesel engine see and why dont they have issues for 100's of 1000's of miles?


I really do think that head gasket failures are more often than not caused by something else and not the gasket itself.

rapidcossie

nothing happens with that link Jay?

Spiky

iTrader: (1)

We took the head off today, All the sealing rings have failed and blown the outer part of the gasket at both ends of the block causing a small amount of damage to the head, This will skim out,
On the dyno we had a puff of water on pump fuel so it looks like at the race fuel map was done on a blown gasket this is why it only picked up 10hp on race fuel until we changed the inlet.

mark

Rod-Tarry

Well ive been waiting for the response from FT/Toyo to my withdrawal & it came this morning. Can I get my car their as a Static display as they have advertised it will be there, think Mick may bring his drag car, which is too noisy to run.
Have asked Mark & my head is already in bits so a no-go, can fit another engine & put my turbo/manifolds on it. Will need to ask Deano for some favours on this one.Its a maybe at the mo.

lead_foot

iTrader: (1)

Nice talking to you in the pub last night mate. Your engine is going to be awesome if it can stay together.

SillyFezzaMk1

iTrader: (1)

shame

Its also a shame that the only thing stopping you running are gasket issues, maybe a bit more research into these areas would have been wise. There are other YBs running 800+ so what are they doing differently to this engine?

I know this engine has high cyl pressures so this that should have set alarm bells ringing from the outset.....not getting your fingers crossed and hoping the wrc gasket will cope.

Just baffles he how such an important part of the engine has been underspecced....am I missing the point??? I really am stumped.

Rod-Tarry

Think you need to be invoved or understand whats being attempted before you talk like that lad. Their is no cheap solution to this problem, we are just pushing it further than most.
This is a road engine not a 10k reving drag engine, we have full boost at 4.3k, ever looked at the Scandy efforts, totally different. We are doing our R&D in public not behind locked doors, this was a backward step, but we only know that cos we have now tried it. Will be back soon with another go at cracking this, meanwhile if you can send me a list of all those 800+ road engines we will be greatfull. The 745bhp achieved on 98ron is a new record for a YB we believe proving this is a road engine not a race one & being pushed further than others have done.
Regards Rod

vikingboy

written like a true tosser. Thanks for that

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Yep, real shame

Yes possible, although without ever having had a gasket failure before I would imagine there seemed no need for any research on the first dyno run a couple of weeks ago, the WRC one seemed up to the job, research done since then threw up this gas Ring option, which is what just failed, have you not read the thread? This WAS research wasnt it?
(or to you is research just reading stuff, not trying it?)

I dont know of any road going ones, the ones I know of are drag or race, and are either on coopers rings or copper gaskets, Mark was clearly looking for an easy to implement solution for road going customers that didnt require specialist machining though, and I would imagine still is, even if that is just going back to a WRC one and capping cylinder pressures.


Well with no failures to date at the point they put the WRC one on the dyno (including running MORE power on rod's previous engine) the alarm bells were on standby im sure, but I dont see why they would have been ringing?

It hasnt been specced yet, Mark is still trying options, what you are watching and viewing as "failures" are nothing more than tests as part of the R&D effectively, they only stop being tests/R&D when the solution is found.

gil

well said.....its only cause they arent doing this behind closed doors and giving us all an insight into what can or cant work that youve had an option to comment.........keep it to yourself and give the boys the support they deserve

gil

sorry bad quote, thought it would bring up the one you had quoted from chip

Miller 3

iTrader: (4)

Just having a flick through june 08 fast forward and there is a greek white 3dr/saff road car with a claimd 960 bhp @ the wheels running 3 bar of boost and also 9.4-1 CR ... Would the lads at FF not be able to get some info on the HG for you Mark/Rod? If the stats quoted above are true?


Shame you had some bad luck but keep up the good work boys

SillyFezzaMk1

iTrader: (1)

Come on guys, I have supported this thread right through...search back a few pages and you'll see my posts supporting this build.

I wasnt meaning to talk out of turn, or act like a tosser...I am genuinely interested and I 100% respect this being done in public ..

Chip has so very kindly replied to my post in an intelligent way furthering discussion and binging light to the situation. I didnt know mark was trying to do the build without specialist machining...something I asshumed would be requied at this level...fair play to him for finding the limits and using this R&D for his customers
I wasnt aware that the probe engine ran on super fuel, I thought it was race fuel... which rod can use...so the similarity is there...I think it's a 850+ motor so wasn't having a dig...more like asking a question.

Sorry to have offended anyone or commented out of turn, I respect the fact that you all know a hell of a lot more about developing engines than me so i'll shut up now .

Dan

**EDIT** Just re-read my original post, It reads really badly like i'm having a go, that was not my intention. I'm on holiday atm and had a few beers dinnertime :S

glancy2081

all these other high hp figures all seemed to be claimed. mark has seen these figures too but is also showing the other side too which is reliability lets face it two hg issues are nothing in the scheme of things

Mark Shead

I could run Rods at 9.4-1 but it would loose a whole chunk of power on pump fuel but it would make the race fuel we used work but and less likely to lift the head,
The VP import we have run is just about the best most agressive petrol you can get but add to much ignition like we did it will bite you in the arse real quick just like it did,
We changed to a Cometic head gasket but this is clearly not as good as the Mountune and it failed on pump fuel, We are pushing this engine and it will always find the weekest link,
The changes so far being made are a diff spec/type head bolt and most likely back to the WRC gasket, With the increase in comp ratio and reduced ignition we should be safe.

Mark

Mark Shead

Nail on head you hit, And as you have seen we made all the issuses public where most companies have/will not for there own reasons.

Mark

MikeR

Answer your pm's

Mike

Mark Shead

Dan

No problems its easy to come across wrong without even knowing/meaning to,
Nothing realy was underspec'ed on Rods biuld, The problems have come mainly from us pushing it hard and the other being the claims for the gasket being over stated.

Mark

DanW@FastFord

iTrader: (1)

I think the key word there is 'Claimed'. The Greeks do seem to have some very over-excitable rolling roads! It's a massively powerful car for sure, but 960...hmmm..

MikeR

Dan, would you ever doubt the figures that these people say to you?

Mike

DanW@FastFord

iTrader: (1)

Which Dan?

SillyFezzaMk1

iTrader: (1)

.

MikeR

you,

Mike

DanW@FastFord

iTrader: (1)

Yes.

Dan

MikeR

So are there any figures people have told you but you have chossen to omit putting them in the mag ?

Mike

PS if so give us a laugh

DanW@FastFord

iTrader: (1)

I may have.
Often a car may have the ability to make the figure, but we've only got their word for it. On one hand I don't want to piss the owner off by not printing it, but I don't want to mislead the reader. The word 'claimed' kind of helps out in that situation.

There have been loads of instances of people claiming figures their cars are simply incapable of producing, but non recently in FF that I can recall. Well one, but the figure accidentally got through the net, so I'm not going to advertise which one!

Stavros

I dont think 960ATW and 3bar and 9.4:1 is all that unbelivable if the turbo was capable.

Race fuel, powerband thats all top end, and wild wild cams and thats no big deal really.

Claimed is a great word. Only think that matters is proven performance on the tarmac.

DanW@FastFord

iTrader: (1)

Believeable is one thing, but proof is another. It had the minerals, just no times to back it up. (you bummer)

Miller 3

iTrader: (4)

Its on a garrett GT42RS Steve on race fuel with 3 bar boost 1600cc injectors / focus wrc spec cams whatever that means lol

Mark Shead

A GT42rs is a 1000hp turbo on pump we have the baby GT42 on Rods rated to 800hp on pump, I maybe trying a 42RS on a Cossie soon

Mark

glancy2081

mark has what you have learned in the past couple of weeks, mean that with your 500/500 conversions they will see a revised compression ratio also

Rod-Tarry

Dan
I didnt slag you off or get nasty, you didnt upset me or offend your post was as you saw it, this was a failure as you state, but hopefully just one more step on the route to nail this 800 barrier in a road engine & still get good figures on pump, it aint easy thats for sure.

Rod-Tarry

Dont tempt me Mark .

Mark Shead

They have been revised before on this but wont go up much above what Rods already is due to the back pressure,
There are a couple of other bits I would like to tweak on them but it would make them a little bit more costly but seing the engine fitted is only 8.5k I maybe able to tweak them more,
I would like to see these hitting 520hp and 520ftlb next.

Mark

JamesH

iTrader: (21)

Mark,

I remember you saying you don't want to push the engine above 1000bhp, is this before or after Nos? As if it after then forget about the race fuel

Monitoring cylinder pressure is also a great diagnostics tool and you can see exactly whn it is combusting, so you know for sure you're not advancing it too much

MikeR

You really need to get Mark to update his website with your cars mods on it Rod his website is well out of date lol

Mike