Andreas

If you are used to high powered turbo cars a n/a engined car would have to have quite some power to impress me.

Ive only driven BMW's with the latest 3 litre enginge (265bhp) and although it sounds amazing and is a great engine I would never replace the cossie with one as it just lacks the punch. Im shure a higher powered BMW like the modern M3's would feel great but I wouldnt go n/a if it had less power than the cossie.

To enjoy the older M3 I think you would have to be a very trackday oriented person, someone who dont care if it feels low on power, as long as its fast for its power. Atleast its usually those ppl that I see keep raving about it.

Im not slagging the BMW's off as I would love to have one myself but if I was told to replace the cossie with one it would have to be a modern M3.

Dan

Yeah I see the analogy there I think mate, not everyone wants originality though, I bet that ones with the same wheels as yours would be a lot more desirable than others because of the way it looks, I know it's not got the engine swap we're talking about but some may look for something like that

Me, i'd buy a normal one and do it myself, know it's done right then!

Dan

Nice! But this is better!

You won't see better driving anywhere than this, E30 M3 around the Isle of Man at the Manx Rally

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE-V3TaNGss

lamb chops

Yeah see your point Dan, i guess for some this would the ideal car.. bet it upsets the handling though the extra weight up front with that big 6 in there.

JonnyBravo

That would depend on how well it was done, but then if you spent 10k doing it its hardly ever going to make that back.

If you want a fast E30 M3 just go and buy a race car, its going to be thousands less than building one

Dan

Yeah good point, could well do...

Mike1

The E30 M3s seem to have got faster over the years........but when the cars came out and the Sapphire was compared to the M3 ( both 200bhp ish and a similar weight ) the Sapphire was ALWAYS quicker round a track than the M3 and the Merc 2.5-16 190...well in all the mag tests of the time that I've got at least. In fact the Sapphire was pushing the M5 E28 hard in lap times in the tests I have...mostly down to it's nimbleness and fantastic ( for a road car of that time ) brakes. So if the Sapphire didn't "handle" as well, it certainly went round corners as well on similar ( or slightly smaller tyres ) to get better lap times. Ah, so you might say that those Sierra press cars had more than the stock bhp...... they were tweaked somewhat and wouldn't really run at 15 seconds to the ton ( 3 or 4 seconds quicker than the similar power E30 M3 and 2.5-16 Merc ).
Well, Turbo technics put up their Stage 1 ( 285bhp ) Sapphire to Autocar who ran it through the same normal test procedure to the press car.
0-100 in 12.8 seconds and about 152mph as opposed to 15.7 and 142 for a standard car...so maybe the press cars weren't too far off stock power as that was the top speed they generally recorded - about 142/143 on a Sapphire.
The M3s might have weathered the years better but in 1988 it was also a 4k more expensive car. I suspect that over the years the average M3 has had more care and maintenance lavished on it than the average Sapphire.
I like the E30 M3s but I still think, as did most of the road testers of the time, the Sapphire is just as much of an adrenaline blast as a weekend car

Andreas

Mike1, I remember those tests, got a portfolio with test and this is from the M3 vs 3dr Cossie test....

madmack99

look good but if tuned, caged and tracked would be better like a touring car

Mike1

Yep the Sierras have got worse and slower over the years whereas the BMWs have got better and faster.......

TimC

iTrader: (1)

Rallying these days just doesnt compare to the 80s like that

cossiemanden

should i say now that i know a sweede that has one with an m5engine in it with over 800bhp?
I REALLY LIKE THE BLACK ONE AND THE WHITE WITH BMW MOTORSPORT STICKERS ON IT (hope the wife could here me)

Mike1

Very true - I love the TOCA racing of that time as well

Sierras mixing it with the Skylines and V8 Down Under

Johnson vs Skaife 92

LINCOLN

iTrader: (1)

Here is what i would (maybe will) do;

Buy a manual 325is and get these guys bumbpers and flares.

http://www.europeancarweb.com/tech/0610_ec_aerodynamics_tech_buyers_guide/photo_29.html

Then get a 3.2 M3 Engine and get the fitting kit off these guys;

http://www.alpinaaustralia.com.au/dyno/dyno_main.htm

Then adapt the hubs (4 x 100) v's E30 M3 (5 x 120) to fit BBS centrelocks.

FAst, cheap(ish), not devalueing the car so much (or at all???)

LINCOLN

iTrader: (1)

http://www.alpinaaustralia.com.au/se...12in_a_e30.htm

LINCOLN

iTrader: (1)

Daviet

my mates got a white and a black one available on his site just now.this black one has only done 42k and looks mint.hes also had heavily modified ones aswell

LINCOLN

iTrader: (1)

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Mo...-156658161.htm

Paul Eggleton

That is stunning

Mike1

Yep, still got that issue - got a few good comparisons of the 2wd Sapphire and M3 as well

fuzzy

if you want a fast e30 youve got to stick a decent engine in it.or turbo it. m3's were only 195/215 bhp with the special editions being 238 iirc. that just doesnt cut it these days. i would have liked to stick my cossie engine in an e30 m3 but i would have had baying mobs of angry e30 enthusiasts decending on my door to lynch me from the nearest lamp post for desecrating their icon with a ford lump

foreigneRS

it's not just about the engines with these e30's is it? although not as powerful as other things, the balance and handling is supposed to be superb which would make for an excellent 'ring tool

fuzzy

50/50 weight distribution was a selling point originally iirc. mine has 52/48 after the engine conversion so not much change. they are well balanced cars that can be tail end happy but will correct themselves most of the time making the most lead footed driver look like a hero.

LINCOLN

iTrader: (1)

OK last pics

Mike1

According to the original road test the Sapphire 2wd was F/R 51.2/48.8

foreigneRS

balance in weight is not the same as balance of grip and handling balance

an F1 car must have more weight in the back than front, but they aim to get the handling balance how they want it using suspension settings, tyre pressures and aerodynamics - not too much understeer or oversteer

Mike1

Agreed, just that BMW make a lot of their 50/50 weight balance and was just pointing out that the Sapphire, despite all it's faults, got pretty close with its 51.2/48.8

Mag tests always said the Ford was a bit trickier on the limit than the M3 - but ultimately faster on a track, mostly down to the big torque advantage and the excellent ( for a standard car of that time ) brakes. Horsepower and weight was roughly the same for both cars.

indycos

iTrader: (2)

sex machine

Vic

passionbeemer!!! lol

Turbocabbie

what ugly looking euro boxes.. looks as bad now as they did in the day

Jim Green

I think alot of people are missing the point...............The E30 M3 is a real petrol heads car, it has racing history and competition heritige behind it, and most of the owners have treated them better and taken more care of them than the equal cosworth. There was less produced than the cosworth, which in the end (Sapphire) became a middle managment road car, and drifted away from it's racing history. The E30 will never be as quick as the Cosworth, but if it had an engine in it giving the same power, I'm confident it would out handle the cosworth. I rate them very highly as an enthusiasts car, and a car that will probably never loose much value. If you want outright power ....... then the Cosworth is the way to go. But for pure engineering excellence, it's got to be the M3. Also as a collectors car, I think it's got the edge, even over a very nice three door.

Obviously it's way easier to tune the Cosworth, which is why the cosworth has done so well. It's a very close call though as to which one you could live with.

Mike1

I take your point Jim about the heritage and them being better maintained etc.........BUT when they were new and standard both cars had about 200bhp, both weighed about the same, both had similar size rubber and weight distribution. Read the comparison tests of the time and even the M3 fans ( like Gavin Green from "Car" ) will admit the Cosworth was the quicker car on a track - nearly as fast as the E28 M5 . Where did that speed advantage come from? Torque or brakes........and before people say the press ones were all chipped, how come they topped out at about 141/142 ( slightly less than the M3 ) and the Turbo Technics 285bhp demo did a ton in 3 seconds less ( 12.8 ) and 152?
Autocar, Fast Lane, Autosport and Car mag all did comparison track tests with new standard cars and the Cossie won EVERY one on lap times. Some mags preferred the M3 handling balance....others like Fast Lane didn't. Everyone loved the Sapphire's brakes
Both great cars, the majority of E30 M3s have been well preserved.........Sapphires on the other hand ...

I've driven both ( my friend had an M3 for years ), but although the BM is much better quality inside, I think the Sapphire is more exciting/rawer to drive. I'm not anti-BM, like you my daily driver is one

Jim Green

Mike1 : Agree 100% with what you say. The cosworth was always quicker and easier to tune............ But in todays world, the M3 is the most sought after, and probably has a higher enthusiast value.

fuzzy

yes . you wont find a half decent m3 for less than Ł7000-Ł8000
dogs come up occasionally for Ł5000+. good ones are expected to start at around Ł10000+
theres one for sale atm for around Ł4500 but its a rolling shell with no engine or running gear.
ideal for a cossie transplant

dan le moignan

blimey, bet that one is a handfull on the road!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKZFr...eature=related

Mike1

Certainly agree with that....they did cost 3 or 4k more when new than the old 2wder though

indycos

iTrader: (2)

another pic

fezzajsy

iTrader: (9)

looks wikid the orange m3