Fagin

Low and behold Andy Forrest does not own a Rolling Road.

As I have already said.....

neilm

Tim

I thought a sleeper was something that looked standard and went like a train, like Daryls camper, not something that looks like its got a fookin canon poking out the front and is about to blow you off the road, quite literally.

Christian and Beccy

iTrader: (14)

I'm sorry if I misread what you said, it sounded as though you were getting at me.

As for that link to the 'dentistmapped' site. You know that Sam is a DENTIST by trade? His mapping takes place on the road? You'll find that everyone that defends mapping on the road doesn't have a Dyno and doesn't want to spend the Ł50k+ to get one, of course they will defend their methods to the hilt. Although that article was written by Andy Forrest, who speak of a 15% variation in RR figures across the country, remember that you have the shonky old knackered RR's dirtying those figures up. I bet there isn't 15% variation between the countries better RR's and decent engine dyno's.

Gary's Evo makes 700-715bhp on our Dyno Dynamics RR and recently made just under 700bhp on Clive Atthowes Dastek RR.

We spent 2 years mapping cars on the road until we started getting some serious cars to map, like a 500bhp CA18 200SX and a 500bhp Pulsar etc. So we invested in a Rolling Road and since then have looked back only to laugh about our road mapping days and how shit they were by comparison. I can understand companies not wanting to invest in a Dyno, IMO it's ludicrous. There isn't enough of an advantage to mapping the car in so-called 'real' conditions to outweigh the fact that we can optimise the timing and fuelling on the RR by measuring/comparing the results. Helps if you know the meaning of the word OPTIMISE?

Christian and Beccy

iTrader: (14)

So, with that being the case and ONCE AGAIN I SAY THIS CONVERSATION IS ABOUT SAFETY, can you honestly tell me that he hasn't driven his Subaru at speeds in excess of 140mph on the roads? OK, maybe his Subaru is mapped on a runway, fair point, but does he map ALL his high-powered cars on the runway?

Even if he is safe, he is one exception from many many tuners that do map high powered cars on the road who are either compromising performance by not tuning the WHOLE map or being dangerous by tuning the WHOLE map.

Surely that makes sense?

COS 22

iTrader: (1)

to be honest reading this post it all seems a bit daft talking about health and safety issues for our mega tuned cars !

they are all FAR TOO FAST for public highways and we all know it !

just cos somebody now has a rolling road and says other tuners are doing wrong is a bit hypocritical imo

we have all done silly speeds at one point

JoeE30

Sorry correct me if i am wrong and believe if im wrong i will swallow my words, but didnt christian loose his licence for racing on a public highway a few yrs back.................if so then this whole conversation is a tiny bit hyporitical int it???

Christian and Beccy

iTrader: (14)

Exactly.

I won't profess that I never speed. However, if I ever did, it would be at a time when the risk to others is minimal. I am a stickler for staying under the speed limits in residential area's and really only have the occassional blow-out very late at night when theres no-one else around.

However, even that is VERY different to trying to map a car on the road. There is alot more to mapping than just driving the car. If you have the benefit of data-logging it is easier, but its still fucking hard and how many Ford's run systems that have decent reliable data-logging? Even with data-logging, you must do a full run, all the way to the rev-limit at each load (boost) point, review the data, make adjustments, then do it again. However, even if you are data-logging, you really should be checking AFR 'live' aswell as using det-cans etc incase you run lean or run into det. Now imagine doing that in a 350bhp RST or a 600bhp Cossie, it all happens too fast and too brutally.

If you consider that a map is usually a 20 by 20 table, so 400 sites, often Load vs RPM and really, you have to visit each and every one of the sites that the car will see on the road and even force it to some of the sites that you will rarely see, if ever, just incase. On the dyno, we can make the retarder control the physical speed and use the throttle to control the load and visit EVERY single site that you will ever see on the road and many sites that you will probably never see and map them to virtual perfection. It sometimes takes 10-15 seconds of fine adjustment and stabilisation before you can set that particular cell, how on earth do you do that on the road for maybe 200 or more cell-sites?

The answer is, you can't. It's based largely on a best-guess and very often a conservative one too. I have asked many many times how the long established road-mappers operate and none have answered this question, so I am left to conclude the answer that made us stop road-mapping. That it just isn't possible to safely map a car to its full potential, while not risking your life, that of your passengers and those of other road users/pedestrians.

I am willing to be re-educated........

mikee_rs

I not an expert on this subject but i no when grove garage map cars mark drives and ahmed does his thing so he can give full attention

mechanic28

iTrader: (5)

well this argument can go on for ever i myself think live mapping on the road is best but i am sure the same amount think r/r is the best way to go

scoooby slayer

iTrader: (4)

i know for a fact some tuners go out very late at night when theres no traffic and do the high speed runs

i agree i think it is dodgy but i wouldnt have my car done any other way. i view it like this say your making a part in my case for a caterpillar and you take measurements and make it half the time it doesnt fit and needs minor altering whereas if its built on the machine it will fit first time. same with mapping set up on rollers will be good but not quite right imo as it hasnt been done in real life conditions ie made to fit.

Tim

iTrader: (1)

neilm

I agree with Christian and have often thought, while watching Northampton Motorsport mapping my Anglia, how could you ever do this on the road, the car is held flat out in 4th probably doing 120-125mph long enough to check fuelling etc

It must be a nightmare trying to get a long enough run, without any traffic in the way to be able to hold the car flat out long enough to ensure the fueling is bang on.

I think the most sensible is to have the car set up so its 95% there on the rollers and then 'trimmed' on the road for 'drivability' also there is no allowance for wind resistance on rolling roads and the extra load that puts on the car.


I can see where Christian is coming from, public roads are not really the place for holding cars flat out for any period of time in this day and age, it only takes one numpty to pull out in front of you while you are doing 140 and its good night vienna.

Fagin

Christian,

I am not talking about safety.... thats a no brainer, but my posts are in response to what you have said about RR vs Road mapping. You seem to forget you have made a number of statements on this thread about this specific thing, which I would whole heartedly argue are incorrect. Not so much outright, but certainly from a given level. I am not having a dig in all this, but just making comment on what you have stated.

Christian and Beccy

iTrader: (14)

neilm - As you say, once you reach a certain cell-site, it takes a few seconds for everything to stabilise. After all, when mapping, you are adjusting injector open times, but measuring the results at a sensor which is, at best, in the back of the turbo, but could be in the end of the tailpipe.

Also, most managements systems 'Interpolate' too, which means that as you cross from one cell-site to the next (in any direction) those cell-site's will start to influence the one that you are attemting to adjust. This makes things even more tricky. We are able to control actual speed in increments of 0.25mph and load is controlled as precisely as fine throttle movements will allow. Dyno Dynamics are reviewing their software too, to give us even finer resolution than 0.25mph too, because we do sometimes find that we can't hit the very centre of a load-site perfectly and can therefore not be sure that there is not 'Interpolation' influencing the value we are working on.

We can also control acceleration rates, which is how fast the car is allowed to accelerate, this can simulate the types of conditions to describe. People have opinions on RR's for power measuring purposes and there have been comments made about cars not making the boost that they do on the road etc, but if you slow the acceleration rate down, it certainly will make the same boost that it does on the road. However, using this method for power runs is a different subject altogether, but its important not to judge an RR's ability as a mapping tool based on how good/bad it is in other area's.

Once we have finished mapping a car, we can carry out slow acceleration runs to check for knock/det. Because of the length of time the car takes to pass each load point, it is quite demanding on the car and it is possible to make absolutely sure that its safe in this way.

pete mcrash

iTrader: (1)

not saying all R/R are the same,but i've been on three and they have never put the car under full load like it is on the road,my car seems "slugish" and makes boost later in the rev range,and never hits full boost.........

Garage19

Having mapped a few cars on the road now i would say you can do a pretty good job. I get a mate to drive and also make use of some good datalogging software.

However i am confident i could eek out a bit more power at part loads and complete the whole map in probably half the time on a RR.

Unless you can afford ion sensing equipmment for PCP measuring the RR will be the best way for optimising ignition at all load/speed sites.

I would love one but alas cannot justify the Ł25k cost or even Ł600 monthly payment for a two wheel drive DD RR. The there is the problem of finding suitable premises with a 3 phase supply.

So i will have to carry on mapping on the road.

Christian and Beccy

iTrader: (14)

The DD stuff only needs a 3-pin plug.

sunny

iTrader: (1)

You need to know how to drive a fwd car with that much power. In order to do that you need to have the right setup aswell as the engine. I remember a few years back I told Mark Shead to hang onto my old Fiesta and take it home as it would a an ideal time to do the cold start maps in the early morning as it was freezing at that time of the year. Mark agreed and sorted out the cold start maps to perfection then he decided to do some more mapping however on his own...soon after I got a call from him saying "fuck it you NEED two people to do this I just can't do it alone" Then with the case of 2 people you need to ensure that the driver has the balls to keep the throttle open 100% when needed as it could have a critical effect on the engine at a later day. The mappers can see when people start of come off throttle especially when aproaching bends or entering certain gears and comming onto alot of boost. So far we've done a pretty good job considering the power of my old car. You have to bear in mind that it done 178.8mph easily at Bruningthorpe using 1.6 bar of boost however it was road mapped to 2.3 bar of boost. Mark said that there is no other alternative, he refuses to map my new car with the power levels where they will be anywhere else other than Bruningthorpe.

scoooby slayer

iTrader: (4)

so did mine mate came on boost later and only held 30 psi instead of 32. judging by what ive heard on here though over time, 2 psi drop isnt to bad

RickyLee53

The dyno is better for MBT etc.

However i still believe you can get gains on the road.
I map my own car, and i mapped most of it in 3rd gear, its around 500bhp (evo) as any1 who's drove during mapping or mapped a car will know its much easier to hit some load sites than others, so some of its done in 4th gear also. Then its been checked and logged and tweaked etc in all gears.
It's not ideal mapping on the road, but you don't need to be going crazy speeds all the time.

There are not 400 load sites to map. I would hazard a guess at around half that, most of them are cruise as well.

Pete mcrash, this is why it should be checked on the road.

RickyLee53

Oh and back to your question tim, you rarely give it a WOT blast through the rev's during mapping you want the rev's and the load to stay the same, i.e. left foot on brake, right on the power. So your not accelerating, until your checking the map, and getting between load sites etc.

timrud

Cheers Rick

Always thouht it was welly it to limiter, check data, tweek then hoof it again!

Shows what I know

Hows yours coming along?

Got to say good effort doing your own car

pete mcrash

iTrader: (1)

if u dont do the "speeds" how can u get the airflow right........7k in 4th is around 120mph,so only doing say 70 mph with the brake on isnt going to pull the air it should/does at the correct speed

Garage19

Cool. Even the fan?

I wonder if the dealer ev er has second hand onne come up?

RickyLee53

If your doing 70mph you'd be at different RPM's and load sites?

The only thing i can think of that you mean is the speed of the air going through the cooler, into the induction etc? Is that what you mean?

In which case you don't map your car different for every gear. The only difference in the gears is boost control really.

The only real advantage of using 4th gear rather than 3rd is its easier to hold it on the right RPM's and load sites.

Mines alright Tim, I mapped it till i maxed my fueling and spark, so its just a case of wait for new parts then tune a bit more.
I need, coil on plug, 2bar it starts to blow the spark out regardless of my dwell amount of plug choice.
More fuel, Aeromotive A1000 i think.
And a carbon twin plate or tripple plate clutch. Currently on a twin plate paddle but its not going to hold much more power.

As always you soon get used to it, but more power means more money, but it seems quick enough for winter at the minute.

pete mcrash

iTrader: (1)

yes mate the amount of air u get rammed into the car is going to massively greater at higher speeds...........mine's mapped on the road and i know for a fact that they "giv it some".........

RickyLee53

The only real difference would be the air intake temp.

timrud

Ricky, it sounds an absolute animal.

I have seen the video from Tappits car

How far over 2 bar are yo hoping to go with boost?

Christian and Beccy

iTrader: (14)

Only the 2wd is 3-pin, the 4wd needs 3-phase, but then thats a fortune anyway!!

The fan really depends on what you get. Ours is 3-phase, but I guess it doesnt need to be.

Christian and Beccy

iTrader: (14)

The engine will only consume as much air as can, so as Ricky says, temps are the main issue.

RickyLee53

Not sure really, i'l just keep mapping till something breaks or it stops making power I guess.

Back to an earlier discussion in this thread, much over 2 bar and i'l have to go onto the rollers to see if my power gains are worth the gains in EGT.

I don't plan to run race fuel so won't be able to go much over 2 bar i don't think, but the car has had very little head work done so there are gains to be had here. I know somebody with a flow bench but really I need a scrap head to try some different port designs. (i just hope it's not going to be my scrap head )
I guess around 2.1-2.2 bar but there are a few bits to change and gain power elsewhere, still on the standard inlet manifold and throttle body also.
Not played about too much with the cam timing just yet either.

I'm currently running 1.8.

Winter's here though and i can never get the time or motivation to do anything but drive it now.

Which brings me to the question, wheres your car!

Chris S

still in the fuking chicken shed

RickyLee53

Want something to play with in the civic

blacky.

how did this thread end up argueing about mapping i thought it was about an insane nova

top car by the way shame he couldnt fit the cooler behind the bumper

reminds me of my mates ols nova saloon
that ended up with a simaler turbo & manifold it also was a bit loony on the road

RickyLee53

Thats a very well put together Nova, salloon

Look at the thread title

Just come in for a break of fitting the cooler on my civic, Looks pretty stealth, you wont see it when painted black

DazC

iTrader: (1)

Erm.......?

Erm.......?

blacky.

ye i realised that after i posted lol all the back & forth of people saying live is better no rollers are better wasn't really getting any where as both sides will argue till blue in the face that there way is better

both ways get the results that the customers want . so it all comes down to what the people want done to there cars weather it be rollers or live

i have no prefrence i have had a car mapped on rollers as i thought the person doing it would get the best results & wenny took his mk3 over to stu at MSD as he though that would get the best results after he had a car mapped on the rollers & it expired 2 days later

ROB7656

SAFETY. we all break the rules. we all large it a bit here and there...u lot never been to a passion ford meeting

RickyLee53

Ironic talking about safety when mapping monsters really.