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Un Due Care and Attention - UPDATED WITH OUTCOME

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Old 23-11-2007, 09:02 AM
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Coldo
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Default Un Due Care and Attention - UPDATED WITH OUTCOME

It appears ive been cited to appear in court on the 19th Dec, being charged with driving my old S2 with un due care and attention


Story goes;
I was in the town of Ayr on the 14th sept 07, was leaving a carpark, approaching a mini roundabout, at the roundabout i slowed, checked i was clear to go, and there was a car approaching from my right handside, but i cheekily nipped out ahead of him, came on boost, had a bite of torque steer when i came on boost and broke traction a bit however exited the roundabout on my side of the road, within the speed limit and there was plenty of room between me and the car that was on the roundabout with me.

Un beknown to me, the plod were approaching the junction from the side i exited so i got a tug, and was given an antisocial behaviour order warning, NOT an ASBO.

The charge is;
On 14th sept 07 on a road or other public place, namely xxxxx, xxxxx in Ayr, you Colin Templeton did drive a mechanically powered vehicle, namely motor car registered number G502 KFV (bastard thing ) without due care and attention whereby you did cause the engine to rev at an excessive level, cause the vehicle to wheelspin and drive at excessive speed for the conditions prevailing at the time.

The policeman said i would be reffered to the fiscal, so here i am today.


NOW;
I know what i done was a bit naughty, im sure we all do it/have done it and i know ive done it since , so im not going to contest the charge/ plead not guilty as i rekon its more hassle than its worth. Just want it over with asap.

SO;
I can reply to the charge 3 ways
Attend court myself.
Arrange for my lawyer to attend.
Write to the fiscal in Ayr, stating my plea, and any other variables i feel should be considered. (groveling letter basically)

What is the best way to go about this? Should i attend or should i write a letter appologising, taking full responsibility, never been in trouble with police before, wont happen again, showing remorse etc etc?


NEXT;
What am i likely to get? Points, fine? anyone went through a similar charge?

Anything i can do to help my case?

Thanks alot
Old 23-11-2007, 09:08 AM
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Brian
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When i got done for driving with un due care and attention (under took a muppet in the outside lane at 1am on the A12 doing 55mhp )

I got 5 points and a £280 fine


Brian
Old 23-11-2007, 09:09 AM
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Mike Rainbird
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Were the road conditions wet at all?
Old 23-11-2007, 09:10 AM
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Dan
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I think a CD10 is the conviction code mate for driving without Due Care & Attention, usually carries a normal £60 fine and 3 points IIRC.

Bit of a shame really as you've done nothing particularly wrong, I do it all the time FFS, just nip out in traffic!

Can't believe they drag people into court for silly things like this yet only last night some fat middle-aged cunt in a fucking peugeot 406 estate car was overtaking AND undertaking on roundabouts and in thick traffic in rush hour on the way home! I hope the prick had a fucking good excuse!
Old 23-11-2007, 09:11 AM
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Dan
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Originally Posted by Brian
When i got done for driving with un due care and attention (under took a muppet in the outside lane at 1am on the A12 doing 55mhp )

I got 5 points and a £280 fine


Brian
Harsh!
Old 23-11-2007, 09:14 AM
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Coldo
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Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Were the road conditions wet at all?
No, not really, i think it had rained but the roads were well cleared by then.

I should add it was at 19:40 in the day.

Thanks for the replies.

Dan, i hope your right, 3 points and £60 i could handle.
Old 23-11-2007, 09:20 AM
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S1rst
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Did you hit some oil or diesel on the road causing you to lose traction?

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Old 23-11-2007, 09:23 AM
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Brian
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I got told by the copper that stop me that i would just get 3 points and fine


Brian
Old 23-11-2007, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian
I got told by the copper that stop me that i would just get 3 points and fine


Brian
Did you contest it though or just accept it?
Old 23-11-2007, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by S1rst
Did you hit some oil or diesel on the road causing you to lose traction?
Is it worth starting all that bollocks? I thought about it but when i was pulled at the scene, there were 3 coppers in the car, so i was in the back with one, and there was 2 up front, ive always thought if i start trying to dispute them, im going to get humped due to the fact they had 3 witnesses to the incident?
Old 23-11-2007, 09:31 AM
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Thats a cunt Col,

But as suggested the diesel on the road was murder
Old 23-11-2007, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by S2martin
Thats a cunt Col,

But as suggested the diesel on the road was murder
Want to take the flack? You sold me it! Haha! Ive sold it on again matey, to a fella in lancaster. Ive since saw it for sale again on pistonheads, looked like shit

As for claiming diesel etc, i dunno? Dont want to dig a hole and end up getting properly done for it!
Old 23-11-2007, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by S1rst
Originally Posted by Brian
I got told by the copper that stop me that i would just get 3 points and fine


Brian
Did you contest it though or just accept it?
I was advised to just accept it.


Brian
Old 23-11-2007, 09:36 AM
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Were the roads at least damp at ALL? I'm obviously trying to find a way you can write an explanatory "excuse", as even normal modern turbo diesels wheel wheelspin in this way with the briefest of swift acceleration in order to "not hold up traffic" .
Old 23-11-2007, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Coldo
Originally Posted by S2martin
Thats a cunt Col,

But as suggested the diesel on the road was murder
Want to take the flack? You sold me it! Haha! Ive sold it on again matey, to a fella in lancaster. Ive since saw it for sale again on pistonheads, looked like shit

As for claiming diesel etc, i dunno? Dont want to dig a hole and end up getting properly done for it!
Aw thats a shame mate

there just too old now though mate arent they?
Did you get to enjoy it or was it a nightmare all the while you had it?

And bollocks i werent driving
Old 23-11-2007, 09:39 AM
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chavs in rsturbo's causing problems eh? whatever next?
Old 23-11-2007, 09:43 AM
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listen to mike he is an expert on approaching roundabouts
Old 23-11-2007, 09:43 AM
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Tough one as always, you can bend over and take it which is the easiest/cheapest option, but you are being unfairly raped imo.

Excessive speed ??? Any proof, where's the camera/laser gun evidence ? If you stopped at the roundabout, what are the chances that you could physically break the speed limit exiting the roundabout ?

Excessive revving ??? Didn't know there was a law against that ! How much are you allowed to rev your car up to these days ? 3K max ???

Sounds like a load of crap to me, surely a decent lawyer would be able to put a cap on that

Also, not sure, but be careful what the conviction would be, SP convictions aren't too bad with insurance these days, but, Careless Driving for one will cost you a fortune in insurance bills for a few years after you have paid the fine and taken the points afaik.

Tough one as always, you can bend over and take it which is the easiest/cheapest option, but you are being unfairly raped imo.
Old 23-11-2007, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Were the roads at least damp at ALL? I'm obviously trying to find a way you can write an explanatory "excuse", as even normal modern turbo diesels wheel wheelspin in this way with the briefest of swift acceleration in order to "not hold up traffic" .
Ill take this into consideration mate

Im almost sure the roads were dry, if it was damp i would have been spinning alot more, literally just broke traction and scrambled for grip a bit.

Aw thats a shame mate

there just too old now though mate arent they?
Did you get to enjoy it or was it a nightmare all the while you had it?

And bollocks i werent driving
Aye, too old to use and enjoy everyday.

I did enjoy it, was good fun, but was just so unreliable i couldnt be arsed to keep fixing it, spending money every month just to keep it on the road, not modding it or taking it to shows etc cos it was broken and needed parts!

When i had it, from when i bought it from you in Feb, untill last month, it went through a starter, alternator, engine mounts, radiator x2!, needed welding, wheel bearings, track rod end, new leads, a drivers seat (mount broke) fuel pump relay, a million fuses, few trim bits and other wear and tear items.

Just to old to be useable, deffo the case! If i had space and time to keep it and only use it weekends i would have but it wasnt the case. Went an bought a beemer now, its good
Old 23-11-2007, 09:45 AM
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As for the wet roads / diesel, not sure that would stand up, surely you have to demonstrate that you were driving appropriately for the road conditions.

Claiming adverse conditions may make your case worse
Old 23-11-2007, 09:53 AM
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S1rst
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Originally Posted by frog
As for the wet roads / diesel, not sure that would stand up, surely you have to demonstrate that you were driving appropriately for the road conditions.

Claiming adverse conditions may make your case worse
Yes i agree, claining that it was wet and thats why you lost grip is still technically CD, as you say you have to drive to the road conditions. But diesel on the road losing grip can happen to ANYONE. Ive been caught out a couple of times by oil/diesel on roundabouts and bends, and even the van lost traction with a massive 65bhp.

Its a tough one to call really and a gamble on whether to dispute it. Id take it to a solicitor and see what they say.
Old 23-11-2007, 09:53 AM
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Thanks alot for that frog, some good points.

They say, driving at excessive speeds for the conditions, surely their judgement of the situation is good enough for the judge,(although i agree it shouldnt be!!) thus meaning, where i may not have been speeding, i was going to fast for the conditions, other cars on road etc?

As for the excessive revving, i agree, what alot of shite.


Do you guys think i should go to court and plea, or write a letter stating how i feel, plead guilty and hope for the best?

Its the expense and time thats putting me off going to court! Ive never had to speak to a solicitor in my puff, wouldnt know where to start with it.
Old 23-11-2007, 09:55 AM
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carlo
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Thats shit news mate they always come down harder on ppl down ayr shore because the probs they ahve had & the locals complaning
Old 23-11-2007, 09:56 AM
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Quote:.......without due care and attention whereby you did cause the engine to rev at an excessive level, cause the vehicle to wheelspin and drive at excessive speed for the conditions prevailing at the time.

Thats exactly what would happen if you hit oil/diesel so i cant see them doing you for it personally.
Old 23-11-2007, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by carlo
Thats shit news mate they always come down harder on ppl down ayr shore because the probs they ahve had & the locals complaning

Deffo. Was the mini roundabout outside the blackburn car park carlo, if you know it?

As for the diesel excuse, i dunno if i buy it

Last thing i want is to go to court, talk a bit of crap to them, get torn a new one and made an example of?
Old 23-11-2007, 10:07 AM
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I know it mate..My mate got caught getting the back end out in his mk1 escort years ago & got banned his lawyer couldnt beleive it but they take a much harsher approach down there.
Old 23-11-2007, 10:15 AM
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Coldo, tough advice to give m8.

On the basis that you can opt to not go to court and swallow the fine/points, you're obviously guilty before proven innocent in this country and that's 100% wrong.

Problem is that going to court usually lands you with a worse scenario if you are found to be guilty, which again is completely wrong...

You can't be more guilty of an offence because you went to court, and yet, you clearly would be

Bend over and take it and you are being raped by the system, fight your corner and you could end up being raped twice, or not at all !!!

It's really your choice, don't think anyone can sit in your place and say "go to court"
A sollicitor should be able to tell you what your chances would be though
Old 23-11-2007, 10:17 AM
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When wet, the diesel on the roundabouts causes a HUGE difference in traction , and the magistrates all probably drive modern fwd turbo-diesel cars themselves, so will KNOW how easy it is for a momentary increase in throttle position to make "swift progress" will cause this situation (especially if they drive fwd Audi TDis ).

You CANNOT be expected to take into account diesel on the roundabout and know to modulate the throttle at the precise time . Just explain you were accelerating normally to keep pace with traffic and not to cause any hold ups or unnecessary braking and that you can only assume that you hit a patch of diesel, which caused the revs to rise and the wheels to briefly spin. You then modulated the throttle to rein this in (as your car doesn't have modern traction control) and did not cause a danger to anyone or hold anyone up or cause anyone to brake unnecessarily.

It is COMMON for lorries and buses to dump diesel on roundabouts and make them slippery, so I would write a letter explaining that you did not speed, were not speeding and was just trying to make swift progress and maintain traffic flow, when (what must have been a patch of diesel ) caught you briefly by surprise, but that you controlled progress perfectly with you quick reactions to the situation, and that you were VERY surprised at being pulled over for no apparent reason .
Old 23-11-2007, 10:31 AM
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Default Re: Un Due Care and Attention

Originally Posted by Coldo
The charge is;
On 14th sept 07 on a road or other public place, namely xxxxx, xxxxx in Ayr, you Colin Templeton did drive a mechanically powered vehicle, namely motor car registered number G502 KFV (bastard thing ) without due care and attention whereby you did cause the engine to rev at an excessive level, cause the vehicle to wheelspin and drive at excessive speed for the conditions prevailing at the time.
That sounds so poor, I would even go so far as to say it's a wind-up!
I realise it's not, but that has to be the poorest worded paragraph from the police I have EVER read!
"a mechanically powered vehicle" "whereby you did cause" "rev at an excessive level?!? etc.
Obviously some fucking retard trying to use big words and failing miserably!
Old 23-11-2007, 10:33 AM
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chavs in rsturbo's causing problems eh? whatever next?


listen to mike he is an expert on approaching roundabouts
PMSL
<<<real tears


steve
Old 23-11-2007, 10:42 AM
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Default Re: Un Due Care and Attention

Originally Posted by Coldo
The charge is;
[i]On 14th sept 07 on a road or other public place, namely xxxxx, xxxxx in Ayr, you Colin Templeton did drive a mechanically powered vehicle, namely motor car registered number G502 KFV (bastard thing ) without due care and attention whereby you did cause the engine to rev at an excessive level, cause the vehicle to wheelspin and drive at excessive speed for the conditions prevailing at the time.
Since when does wheelspin go hand in hand with excessive speed... I would assume the fact that you had no traction due to the wheels spinning your speed was not increasing much
Old 23-11-2007, 12:15 PM
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right can they prove with video evidence that your car was wheel spinning, can they prove with video evidence you were traveling with excessive speed

I'm sorry but none of it will stand in court unless they got evidence


go to court pleed not guilty it's be adjured in that time the CPS will then look at the evidence against you (you can also get a copy of it) find out exactly what it is and see how much bullshit they wrote!

You'll then get another court date (if the CPS haven't dropped the case due to lack of evidence) go to court and state your case and see what happens the worse that'll happen is a slightly larger fine and maybe 6 points.


I know i got away with it yrs ago i was racing doing 90mph in back street of a city, T5 go past turn round and stop both of use, get told we where racing, excessive speed, dangerous driving etc

went to court pleeded not guilty got adjured, waited another 3 weeks went to court again and once again got adjured also got the evidence against me which was piss poor and laughable.
went to court 3rd time got sentenced reduced from dangerous to due care & attention didn't except that and pleeded not guilty again
so another court date and before this date i got a letter saying if i accept an SP30 that would be it so i took the 3 points and £60 fine.

so from street racing, dangerous driving & speeding i got done for speeding cause they had no evidence & the CPS knew this but they always try for the highest charge first before there evidence is even looked at by the judges! if you plee not guilty first the CPS look at the evidence and see if it will stand in front of a court if it is in doubt they will either drop the case or try for a lesser charge.
Old 23-11-2007, 12:19 PM
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What really gets me with this country is that you risk getting done for more for the privilege of defending your case

Is that what you call expeditive justice ?

Surely, that can't be legal
Old 23-11-2007, 12:36 PM
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hmmm, well why not just go to court, plea your innocence of the matter, it was a momentary loss of traction os the turbo spooled up on the roundabout, the car you had was erm, how can i put this, very non smooth (cant think of the word sorry) in the delivery of power when the turbo spooled up, thus the front wheels lost traction around the exit of the roundabout.
explain it wasnt intentional it was just "one of those things with the car" and since this happened you have sold the car for a more "predictable" car which hopefully will prevent that kind of thing happening again;
and just explain it wasnt intentional and dont get arsey!


also revving high, without revving into vetec how do those honda boys get to the correct speed on the motorway
Old 23-11-2007, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by vibrating_cake
the car you had was erm, how can i put this, very non smooth (cant think of the word sorry) in the delivery of power when the turbo spooled up
erratic is the word your looking for mate.
Old 23-11-2007, 01:13 PM
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ballin
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Originally Posted by vibrating_cake
also revving high, without revving into vetec how do those honda boys get to the correct speed on the motorway


motorway speeds eh, something Capri drivers can only dream of
Old 23-11-2007, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ballin
Originally Posted by vibrating_cake
also revving high, without revving into vetec how do those honda boys get to the correct speed on the motorway


motorway speeds eh, something Capri drivers can only dream of
this means war
Old 23-11-2007, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
When wet, the diesel on the roundabouts causes a HUGE difference in traction , and the magistrates all probably drive modern fwd turbo-diesel cars themselves, so will KNOW how easy it is for a momentary increase in throttle position to make "swift progress" will cause this situation (especially if they drive fwd Audi TDis ).

You CANNOT be expected to take into account diesel on the roundabout and know to modulate the throttle at the precise time . Just explain you were accelerating normally to keep pace with traffic and not to cause any hold ups or unnecessary braking and that you can only assume that you hit a patch of diesel, which caused the revs to rise and the wheels to briefly spin. You then modulated the throttle to rein this in (as your car doesn't have modern traction control) and did not cause a danger to anyone or hold anyone up or cause anyone to brake unnecessarily.

It is COMMON for lorries and buses to dump diesel on roundabouts and make them slippery, so I would write a letter explaining that you did not speed, were not speeding and was just trying to make swift progress and maintain traffic flow, when (what must have been a patch of diesel ) caught you briefly by surprise, but that you controlled progress perfectly with you quick reactions to the situation, and that you were VERY surprised at being pulled over for no apparent reason .
Told you mike was the king of excuses cut copy paste mikes reply
Old 23-11-2007, 02:47 PM
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this happened because of your car you drive, why don't they go to the local super market and nick all the cars with bald tyres, or block the exit off and do MOT's on the way out cos a lot of them will fail!

I know this sounds shitty because I'm not in your postition.

but the way the public are being forced into just accepting the police behaviour is shit, but your basicly fucked if you do argue and fucked if you don't

I've been to buy car off a police oriface before and the fucking test drive he took me out on was unbeleivable and when I said about it "its okay I'm a copper"

one rule for them

then when you try to complain to at the main arse (station) they say they aren't interested and wheres your proof.

and its getting worse with the young shit heads they are recruiting and brainwashing/training to nicking people for petty driving offences.
Old 10-12-2007, 12:37 PM
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Coldo
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Decided, after speaking to a couple of people who are in the know, that i should plead guilty by letter.

Whipped up a quick draft just now, would like some feedback?

(Excuse my groveling, brown tounge tones

The Procurator Fiscal
37 Carrick Street
AYR
KA7 1NS

The Procurator Fiscal

I am writing to acknowledge and answer the receipt of complaint reference number; AY07007936.

Charge:
On the 14th September 2007 on a road or other public place, namely Blackburn Car Park, Blackburn Drive, Ayr. You COLIN TEMPLETON did drive a mechanically propelled vehicle, namely motor car registered number G502 KFV without due care and attention or without reasonable consideration for other persons using the road or public place whereby you did cause the engine to rev at an excessive level, cause the vehicle to wheelspin and drive at an excessive speed for the conditions prevailing at the time;
CONTRARY to the Road Traffic Act 1988, Section 3 as amended.

To this charge, I plead GUILTY as stated on the attached paperwork.

I understand the way in which I drove was in retrospect wrong, irresponsible and without due care and attention. I would like to whole-heartedly apologise and I can assure you that it has not and will not happen again. It is a style of driving to which I do not condone, respect or believe to be correct in any way.

I would however like to take this opportunity to disagree with an area of the charge. In particular where it is stated that I “Caused the vehicle to wheelspin and travel at an excessive speed”.

In my own opinion, I feel this section is extremely contradicting, it suggests I made the vehicle wheelspin and travel at excessive speed, by my understanding causing the driven wheels to spin, causing the vehicle to slow, thus not travelling at an excessive speed at all, in fact, the vehicle would be reducing in forward momentum.

This said, I would like to finally revert to my initial statement, apologising and showing a great level of remorse for my irresponsible actions and hope this is taken into consideration when sentencing.

Yours sincerely,
Colin Templeton.


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