Turbo Zetec

iTrader: (1)

right, i'm in a situation where i can build either engine, but i can't decide which i'm going to do.

so i need you, the good people of PF to help me decide! the thing is, i don't want an opinion on which you prefer, i want an opinion based on hard facts (which you will need to voice).


i want the argument based on a engine with the figure of 650bhp, plus they have to be reliable, so the strength of the standard crank and rods do not apply as they would be replaced with steel items.


right, to start off, i'll voice a small argument for both engines which you may expand on if you wish

YB:
the YB is proven to be strong, it has a big following with tons of aftermarket bits for it out there. ford used it for touring cars and rallying, but it is big, heavy and old!

ZT:
the zetec is 10 years newer than the YB, it's VERY similar to a 4g63 evo engine in its measurements (internal), which is also a well proven engine. ford switched to using this in rallying instead of keeping the YB, there must be a reason for this? the st170 head can flow more than the cossie with smaller valves as standard (fact taken from cnc heads site)

so... your opinions and explinations please!

ECU Monitor Enthusiast

iTrader: (1)

LOL, you dont want much do you..

Turbo Zetec

iTrader: (1)

all i really want is a reason that i shouldn't sell all of my cossie bits and go ZT

Stavros

reason for this? err, how about no ford vehicle uses a YB anymore?

im sure if they could theyd use a formula 1, CART, or TopFuel engine if they could, but they cant.

and head flow isnt the be all end end all, good for top end bhp figures, but YBs always have great torque and relativley low boost thrsholds for the spec, and thats most likely down to fairly small ports.

no idea how strong the zetec block is, but YB is proven at nuts power, which is nice.

Turbo Zetec

iTrader: (1)

no ford vehicle used a YB until ford needed a good engine to race with. if they wanted to use it now, i'm sure they still would. the escos was basically built around taking that engine, whereas they decided not to go that way with the focus. lets face it, if ford did release a focus cossie, loads of people would have bought them, so they had no reason not to really! but instead, they went the way of a zetec. have they got any slower? no!

surely ford wouldn't take a step backwards?

Stavros

Dunno if you noticed mate, but WRC engines are low revving 300bhp 2litre turbo motors.

Not exactly a hard push for any engine, lol...

Shings

There is no arguement..


Show me a Zetec engine that does 650 and I'll show you 10 YB's that do 650.


The YB is from YE OLDE SKOOL of engineering where everything was over engineered- same idea as the R32 GTR

Jake

89xr2

You're forgetting one simple fact though. The WRC Zetec engine cost over 50 grand to build!

zippyobrien

iTrader: (2)

every thing wasnt over enginered though was it,

zetec power figures are really starting to take off recenly,

surely, if your going to invest in a new set up a duratec engine would be more desirable, with the right hand side inlet (front on a fwd)

Shings

Ok you;'re taking my words literally... no not EVERYTHING but the YB engine is.

Turbo Zetec

iTrader: (1)

so why use the cossie in '92 if the zetec was already out at that time? i'm not arguing for either engine. just wanting to know other peoples arguments and comments before i make up my mind.

i can show you a ford engine miles better than the cossie that did 650bhp from the factory in the early 80's, but this isn't about the figure, its about the two engines in queston.

i'll admit that there are loads of cossies with big power, but is the reason that there are so little zetecs out there purely because the 'lets build a fast ford' way seems to be set in stone? i sometimes wonder why people don't use the granada cos engine turbo'd very often, i reckon it could make a huge amount of power if somebody spent a bit of time developing it, but are people too scared to try these things?

the zetec just seems the ideal turbo motor base to me!

zippyobrien

iTrader: (2)

i still maintain that the rs2000 motor is an awsome engine out of the box and bucks for bucks is a better road car engine up to a reasonable power, no one seems to have developed them,

i mean, 330 bhp at 12 psi, dont htink ive ever seen a cossie do that

89xr2

Because no one wants to spend the time or money developing it. Everything would be unchartered territory. A bit like rod with his 200mph yb. Look how much money he's had to spend on that as everything is un tested. Why spend loads of money trying to get a zetec to 650 when you KNOW you can get a yb to 650 and with what spec etc.

Plus the zetec is old as well now anyway so why not try and tune the duratec if you're going to be spending a fortune on development?

Shings

Development costs money.
The granada cossie engine doesn't have a big following- I know from Nutters experience trying to get STANDARD rebuild parts is difficult.

I disagree with FAST FORD and SET IN STONE- a few years ago it was T4 and greys or T4 and RS500 set up- now as roller baring turbo's and bigger capacity injectors are more readily available its not set in stone.

The fact remains tho- to make a cossie engine fast you do (basically) 3 things.

1 bolt on big turbo
2 bigger injectors
3 map/chip to suit.

Cossie engine has STEEL crank and STEEL I section rods.

The Zetec doesn't.

Jake

Shings

I have...

Boost pressure has nothing to do with it... if you bolt a big enough turbo.

12psi on a T4 will shift more air than 12psi on a T3.


Jake

zippyobrien

iTrader: (2)

i understand that
but this was 12 psi on a small ish (in comparasion to say say a gt32 or a t35 or t4)

obviously big turbos make large pwer at low boost, look at skyline motors,


surely theres got to be more devlopment using massive turbos and high revs,

a power band a 4000 rpm is good enough and zetecs will rev to 9k all day with the right set up, so surely they hold more potential in that respect,

Shings

So do cossies if they're set up properly...

I totally understand things get better as you go along..

I am no expert at all- but on this arguement of Zetec Vs YB cossie..

There is no arguement at all.

Turbo Zetec

iTrader: (1)

as i said before, its not about the standard internals. i've taken that out of the equation. we all know the YB is strong, but in this case, so is the zetec!

i'll agree that development does cost money, but the YB would never be where it is today if somebody hadn't dared to spend the time and money making it that way!

the granada cos engine parts are hard to get hold of because there was never a big following, if it had the following the YB does, i'm sure that there would still be reproduction bits being made by the hundreds for it today!

one good thing on the 'development' front though is the good ol' US of A, they've been tuning the zetec for a few years now, so many uprated parts are available and cheap!

Shings

You cant take the internals out of the equation simply because you can do 650 on a standard cossie crank- albeit a good one.

Not possible on a zetec- will fall apart I am sure.


Also- the yanks dont have the YB otherwise I am sure they would favour that too.

Turbo Zetec

iTrader: (1)

examples of cheap US parts:

ferrea stainless valves, 34.5mm inlet, 29mm exhaust: Ł160 a set

eagle rods: Ł160 a set

ferrea double valve springs, titanium retainers and cotters: Ł285 a set

OBX turbo header: Ł200

Matt

wheres sunny and his forever being built engine when you need him

Shings

Right..... if it was me- its simple.

TO do 650 out of a YB its gonna be cheaper and more "reliable" than doing it to a Zetec.

A tried and tested formula that will and does deliver what you want.

I know where my money would be spent.

Thats the answer to your question.

Jake

zippyobrien

iTrader: (2)

zetec zetec zetec,


how about a full 2.2 or 2.4 zetec turbo with idependandt throttle bodies and a fucky gt roller bearing turbo,

in all honesty, im not the most techinically minded of people, so all that affects my opinion is bhp per ŁŁŁŁ

and as already said forged internalls are so cheap for a zetec,

ive never really considered a zetec as a contender for the yb beofre, onyl a replacement for the cvh

Turbo Zetec

iTrader: (1)

i'm unsure why you say it would be less reliable if the zetec had steel internals?

thank you for your input anyway, its just what i'm after anybody else?

Turbo Zetec

iTrader: (1)

you look at the figures, its more or less the same as a mitsi evo engine in its capacity, bore, stroke, valve size and air flow through the head. so why shouldn't it be a contender for the big power title?

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

Have you lookd at the Duratec engines?

Supposedly very tuneable. Hasnt IAn Howell hit over 600bhp with one already?

Shings

At the end of the day- talk to the person who's going to build the engine and do the tuning- ask them what they suggest.

Tell them what you want to do with your car and what you hope to achieve.

Then go from there.

Jake

Turbo Zetec

iTrader: (1)

i'll be the one building it, as i work at an engine remanufacturers (britains largest), i have all the tools around me that i will ever need to do the work

not bothered by the duratec to be honest, don't think it shares the normal ford bellhousing pattern, so can't be bothered with it! otherwise, i'd go for the 5cyl volvo lump!

rigwrecker

i would go for it the more people that experiment wi the zetec the more
we will find out what the block and head are capable off we cant use the yb engine for big power forever can we?

lucasdemoley

Shings

Basicly what he said. There are quite a few high powered yb's out there, where as probibly only a handful of 600bhp+ zetecs.

If you want best bang for your buck go for the yb, if you want something different and a real project, and dont mind spending the extra money to have sopmething different, go for the zetec.

tabetha

Why change look how long other engines have been around and still being developed/tuned, V8 chevy for example werre around for years, in their millions.
Why does it need to be a choice ? I got yb for cheap easy power where someone else, ie tuning firms had already had all the hassle and cost of development, as for us power figures, they are sometimes as wide as their gobs IMO.
Cost is very important and I wish we had the cheap prices like they do.
Comparing head flow is ridiculous of one aspirated and one not aspirated head, all it tells you is one(ST) NEEDED to flow a lot better as no turbo.
Ports of turbo engines are not as important, but torque will be better at lower revs as more air can be consumed
tabetha

Garage19

I have had some expience with zetec engines and have done a fair bit of research into big power ones.

One thing i have never heard of is blocks splitting. Where as a 205 block tends to go at the 400bhp mark i know of plenty of zetecs running past this with no block problems. My theory on this is that the zetec is more under square than the YB. It has a smaller bore (85mm vs 91mm) and i think this gives it a advantage at higher cylinder pressures, just as a smaller bore piece of pipe can carry more pressure than a larger bore piece of pipe.

Just one thing of many to consider.

Turbo Zetec

iTrader: (1)

whats the largest fugure you've seen from a zetec? and how are they reliability wise?


we know 200 blocks can take monstorous amounts of power, but how much could a zetec cgi block take i wonder?

Shings

I disagree with your comment about the 205 blocks and 400 bhp.

My last cossie had 430 ish bhp- no cracked block.

Nutters runs around the 500 mark- std 2wd 205 block. No cracked block.


Anyway.....who's going to port and flow test your head???

Mark Shead

How many Cossies out there with big power and use it,
How many ZT out there with big power and use it as most are fwd and cant use it ,
For me this should answer your question.

Mark

leecavturbo

i think you've already made your own mind up.
for me once your at the "steel this steel that" stage rods and crank etc your virtually not in a yb,zt,4g63 engine anymore anyway. the block is just a carcase for all the "good stuff" the head flow of each engine could have been a issue had there been some significant flow problem but theres not.
if your a keen engine builder i think you will just come right back and build another if it fails. but even that is not R&D evidence that will rule the zt block out if it fails, for the cost of the internals you quoted i wouldn't hesitate. after all buliding it yourself is saving you half of what you would pay to have one built for you.
go for it.

bud-weis

i agree...to me it sounds like you've made your mind up about using a zetec lump.

Personally i see no reason for it but hey it's your choice!

Consider though that the zetec engine is hardly 'new'...it's been around for years and years, yet i can't think of 1 engine producing a genuine and reliable 650bhp. that to me tells you that you are going to need to spend a lot of cash making sure yours is both strong enough and makes the power.

YB's have produced 650bhp for years now, and more recently they have even become more user friendly fitted in cars that could (if wanted) be used everyday...they don't break because of the power, but obviously they don't last all that long...but then show me another engine with that power that does.

you have also mentioned the EVO engines..why not just use one of them?? it's not a YB (which you seem dead against) and they can obviously be tuned to silly levels!

Eagle

iTrader: (2)

as your all arguing over the best engine ... how about availability of a gearbox to bolt onto it, diffs etc not really worth having a monster 600+bhp if the box shits itself everytime you press the loud pedal is it

GARETH T

YB all day long

Stavros

in that case why not use a ford v8.

can buy a dart block that can take 2500bhp for 1000quid new, or an alloy version for 2k that prob weighs les than the YB or Zetec.

can buy full steel internals that stroke it to nearly 6litres for under a grand that can happily take 700bhp and 7000rpm

and with that capacity you can have no lag at all and more torque than you can imagine.

and unless you building a drag car or competing in a competition where the others have the same (and no, i dont mean the PF internet saddo im "cooler" than you as ive got more power i cant use competition ), whyd you need that power? fun deffo dont increase with power or money spent.