S1rst

Been having a discussion today about whether or not big brakes are really necessary when going for more power. I dont think they are personally as more power is not actually going to affect the braking performance of the car, which seems comman sense and self explanitory to me.

Ok i know its always good to upgrade standard brakes on any car but are bigger brakes REALLY needed?? Some people say its an essential but i disagree. i have big brakes myself and i know how good they are, but im looking at it from a theoretical point of view to see if they're a ''necessity'' to enjoy the car.

Yes it is a wise decision and always better to stop quicker, but i wouldnt say you need them on the road as your brake performance will be the same whether you have 500bhp or 250bhp. Ive had 4 people say that it wont today. Is it me or them thats a bit thick and cant understand what im saying.

rsnissan

iTrader: (9)

If you can reach twice the speed in the same distance as before than you will need twice the stopping power to stop in the same distance as before...............its not rocket science really.

It depends on how good they are to start with really. i.e upgrading my pulsar brakes was a wise move regardless of the power the car had

However i douby you would need to upgrade the brakes on an exige for quite a while

Eagle

iTrader: (2)

all depends on what you are using the car for.. no point in doing trackdays in a 400 bhp fully loaded 1.5 tonne barge if you have only upgraded the pads...
horses for courses,
although that one time when you really need to stop to miss hitting something you might call that worth it, as it could save a life ...

AndyBrew

...

Chip

iTrader: (3)

As above, depends on what car and what you use it for.

As a rule of thumb though, I would say YES


Take most STANDARD cars to the ring for example and you will feel you need bigger brakes, tune the engine and its even more the case.

AndyBrew

yes definately, they look

Ridgey

iTrader: (5)

I agree, more power doen't mean you MUST upgrade. However, with more power you are likely to be approaching corners faster (hence better brakes recommended), but if you have self control and can think ahead by easing off/braking earlier then its not a problem.

Dave

charlie luciano

iTrader: (3)

Anyone upping the power in their car needs to upgrade the brakes, if you are thinking about going you gotta think about stopping, the standard brakes were fucking shit once my car was up to the 300 bhp mark which I found out when I rear ended some cunt, fortunately not big damage and only required a new front bumper and o/s indicator unit, so when I rebuilt the engine and was adding more horsies the big brakes went straight in and now she stops well, in straight lines and from naughty speeds

At the end of the day most people will tell you, big brakes are usually the last mod that they do, they definately should be the first and that's coming straight from the horse's mouth


Saying that big brakes are not necessary is like saying its not necessary to use a parachute when you jump out of a plane, capiche



Luciano

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

AP have done back to back tests with several cars, and from slow speeds, there is not much difference in standard brakes and the APs. However, as soon as you get above 70mph, the braking distance starts to dramatically reduce with the APs (as in the difference between hitting a car and not hitting a car) and once you get to the point of repeated stops, the standard set-up becomes inconsistant, whereas the APs remain virtually constant.

In my opinion, the brakes should be upgraded BEFORE power and I have written an article about it for the next issue of Fast Ford, explaining some budget upgrades to the all-singing and dancing set-up of my own car .

Most road brake set-ups are designed for ONE hard emergency stop, which they can usually do exceptionally well. After that though, they wane significantly unless upgraded and the difference becomes immediately noticable. Obviously if you drive like "Miss Daisy" (which all you bufties seem to do anyway, for fear of fly splats / stone chips ), then big brakes are not going to be required....

Ridgey

iTrader: (5)

Bollocks...................
if you were driving more carefully and leaving the appropriate space you wouldn't of rear ended anyone (unless they pulled out suddenly infornt of you).

Don't blame bad driving on brakes..........

Rick

Yes, you do.

As an example, there's a dual carriage way with a number of roundabouts spaced about 1/3 mile apart close to me. Say a std car will get to 80 miles an hour, and the modded to 100+, then you need far more braking performance - or more accurately fade resistance - on the modded engine. Stopping distances aren't really effected.

dave cos4x4

iTrader: (5)

big brakes are fooking awesome, and yes they are better than standard or slightly uprated brakes.

ok, i knw they are expensive but the brake upgrade is THE best mod i have done on my car!!

get in a car and find out how good they are.

i can still remember Slowpoke having a passenger ride in my car he could not believe how well the car stopped.

Ridgey

iTrader: (5)

Bigger better brakes are good and i should get some, however, do we loose the responsibility or ability as a driver to drive within the ability of the car when we upgrade power .

foreigneRS

it's not really that you'll be braking from a higher speed, as std brakes are designed to cope with a stop from autobahn speeds it's that with more power you will be up to those high speeds more often and in quicker succession meaning the brakes don't get long enough to cool down in between use

Martin-Hadland

iTrader: (2)

Bigger brakes, yes! And preferably BEFORE a power increase not the other way round Standard cossy brakes arn't that good anyway.

slim20012

i sorta had the same attiude so dumped a 2.0l in my lil mk4 fiesta on the the pissy little 1.3 brakes all was well

Till i was used to the power then couple of days later while out messing around i stood on the brakes only to find nothing the only thing that stopped me was a ditch

charlie luciano

iTrader: (3)

I take it that the above was directed at me so fucking bollox back at ya, you weren't there and you know nothing of the incident you're making assumptions son,


Luciano

Chip

iTrader: (3)

You will NEVER have a road accident cause the standard brakes arent good enough unless:
Someone else makes a bad judgement like pulling out in front of you
You make a bad judgement and dont leave long enough to stop taking into account how shite the brakes are.


I dont think you can assign 100% blame for an accident onto the fact you didnt have big brakes, you KNEW you didnt have big brakes, so should have left longer to stop surely? (unless someone else pulled out in front of you in which case its obvously their fault regardless of your brakes!)

Oranoco

Yes.

Basically

And ideally they should be sorted along with the suspension before trying to get any more power

charlie luciano

iTrader: (3)

Hang on a minute stop the press Mr Chip 3 Door is throwing in his two pence worth, at the end of the day if you are pumping up the power in a car to silly horsies its fucking insane not to upgrade the brakes, I used an example from my own experience and everybody's jumping on the band wagon and trying to kick some knowledge, irrespective of that particular incident my point is my car had increased engine power but did not have the brakes to match, if I would have had the set up that now resides in my car it would have stopped, now fuck off the lot of ya


Luciano

tabetha

There is a pratt round here who has 17" on his festa 1.25 zetec with AP's which are shit, as they don't get hot enough to work as well as uncle fords did, but this is the exception.
Better brakes can be a good thing or an unecessary PRETTY THING, IF YOU HAVE ENOUGH STOPPING FORCE TO LOCK THE WHEELS NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU UPGRADE YOU ARE NOT GOING TO STOP ANY SOONER.
Most road cars do not have suffecient traction to warrant extreme brakes, if you see the stopping distance of an F1 compared to ANY road car you would fall over with shock at the difference.
REPEATED STOPS(tests) gives a very good indication of fade resistance and is only really rellevant on a track car.
It is easier to make brakes for a track car as it does not have such extremes of temperatures to operate in, it is fairly constant, whereas a road car goes from below freezing to way above.
Ap are certainly good, but nowhere near the best - for the money, there are better road orientated ones.
tabetha

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Charlie, I dont disagree that if you up the power on a cossie you need to upgrade the brakes too, im just saying that simply cause you have more power shouldnt make you crash if you make the right judgements when driving.

The thing I do disagree with you on though is that by my logic it wouldnt be because it stops you having an accident, as correctly judging your braking distances should do that.
My argument would be it allows you to enjoy the power of the car more as you can then reach higher speeds in the same space for the same safety margin so you can keep your toe in that bit longer on a straight etc knowing you can get rid of the speed again.

In your case of getting more power I would say that clearly you were just a cross between a hooligan and a kid with a new toy who couldnt resist nailing the car everyone regardless of wether you could stop it or not

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Tabetha, fantastic explanation there

JJ off here has just fitted some Brembos, OE porche ones, having been in a few cars with them they get my vote as a good all rounder

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

I agree with everything you say bar the last line - define "better" .

wimwerf

If you put some bigbrakes on...then you know what you missed al these time...only then..

xr_craig

iTrader: (2)

It's a good idea in my opinion too, hence why i've done it and my car is currently only around 300bhp - they are there ready for when i get more power

dave cos4x4

iTrader: (5)

very true.

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

And if you have REALLY good (grippy) tyres, big brakes work even BETTER (don't they Dave? ) .

Marc LJX

iTrader: (2)

Tabetha- Bang on

I have cosworth brakes on my RST. They do not fade with repeated track use and associated high temps. They will also lock up at any speed if i push the pedal hard enough, therefore i dont think i need anything bigger.


Also having a brake upgrade is like a performance increase in itself for a track car. i.e. any given car will get round a track quicker with uprated brakes fitted, because it can brake later, harder and more consistently.

Obviously when you reach the point where the brakes are too good for the car, its just overkill and your throwing money away.

dave cos4x4

iTrader: (5)

my brakes are tiny compared to yours Mike,and no where near your spec of brakes.

stop making excuses....the spec of your car to mine.....and you are on about tyres.

col cos1

iTrader: (5)

my brakes are almost standard with over 400bhp

but ive no got any cash

Ginge !

also a brake fluid change helps when a cars got crap brakes ive found too as when was the last time you lot changed the fluid ?

also on tracks tyre presure affects it as my brakes died half way round the ring and that was fluid rather than fade and the rear end also got slippy half way round

though i still aint been arsed to change the fluid

if your flooring the pedal then its fluid, if the pedal aint floored then its fade i belive

Ginge !

helps if you also USE the brakes dave !!!!,, rather than gears and the walls of the tyres to slow you down too

think with dave ANYTHING is a good idea uprated,,, apart from armco as he needs RUBBER armco

dave cos4x4

iTrader: (5)

i was using every last bit of the brakes Ginge,i needed too,driving normal for a change aswell on the track.

Ginge !

you was using anything that could get the car to stop if i recall apart from your favorite ( the armco)

i heard from one of your lot when you was on track to take the cossie off road the onlyhn thing that stopped you then was the car finally giviing up,,, the car passing hints like not selecting gears didnt make you think " ill come off track now" it was when it finally gave up and was crying diff oil from the front diff casing you said " ill go home now"

yeah think upgrades are needed for you car matey

dave cos4x4

iTrader: (5)

that was the dec 29th track day.

the car has not moved since then,i have just taken the engine and box out last week to sort the fooked gearbox and smashed sump out.

i think the car will be going in the paintshop while its off the road so may be a while before its out.

i'm thinking of changing the quaife box i have for a more suitable one.

Ginge !

single speed box perhaps

or a scania truck box ?

that poor car,,, the way you drive it ill NEVER get a ride out in it

dave cos4x4

iTrader: (5)

one day Ginge,one day.

S1rst

I think some are missing the point i was trying to make.

Thats the point i was trying to make. Yes it would make you approach and exit faster but there not ''necessary'' to still enjoy the power. they just mean you can enjoy the power more like you say.

I know that its best to have the brakes done and it makes sense to do so, but im trying to look at it from a theoretical point of view. I know you can get to higher speeds quicker obviously and im looking at it from the average drivers point of view.

And for the record, i have decent 6 pots anyway, even though they are mainly just there for show!!!

S1rst

Not sure about that mate. No matter what car your in, if you have big brakes, your always going to be able to enter and exit quicker, regardless of the power you have.