Dannn

I remember many moons ago a similiar thread and Mr Norris saying the same thing and in his opinion they did fook all and were a waste of time!

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Well Harvey insists on running them on NEW turbos and NEW engines, otherwise no warranty on the turbo!

The tolerances are extremely tight on a brand new turbo and the standard oil filter doesn't always filter out the minute particles that could still damage it.

Also, at least with a turbo oil filter you are doing what the the turbo builders recommend as well .

Obviously on a shonky old turbo, a rat could probably climb through the tolerances, so doesn't apply .

My new engine / turbo has one .

Ginge !

what difference are the tollerences to a turbo oil core compared to a engines bearing or a hydrolic lifter ???

surely there just as tight ???

just a thought,,, i doubt they do that much tbh,,, id like to see the inside and get it compared and then see what the actual flow is after with and without the filter ontop

oil contamination is just a load of bollox people use to get out of warranty,, hence them using it as a get out clause

how can you not warrant a engine for not fitting a part the turbo people who MADE them dont even supply or make ????

Ginge !

mind if they get clogged,,, then thats also pointless too

Carlsworth

thats my point too ginge


if your oil is going to clog the turbo, then it will defo clog the filter...down to preference imo


someone mentioned the rs500 touring cars not having them....

not really sure what to make of that, as it was 20 years ago, and time and technology move on...
besides, the engines were rebuilt after every race, so im pretty sure the oil will have been mintos...."nah fook it, put the old stuff weve saved in it...."

carl

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

You'd be ASTONISHED if you saw how bad a Cossie engine has to get before it won't run. I've seen shells running on nothing but the bronze casing and still going strong . New turbos however, will lunch themselves just LOOKING at a "foreign body" .

Carlsworth

will lunch themselves just LOOKING at a "foreign body" .
pmsl

Franco

iTrader: (2)

Just to add, mines missing as Martin borrowed it!

Ginge !

but mike that dont anwer the question, the question was if the person LOOKS AFTER his oil changes whats the difference with the gaps in bearings/lifters/cams to the turbos bearings ?

as in if the oil changes avoid that then sure it would do the same for the turbo

and why dont garrett make these also,,, if it protects the warranty on the turbo with oil contamination

and if they work soo well and are soo important why do they make them in pretty colourfull designs ?

oil filters come powdercoated white or black, fuel fulters also dont come polished

why do these ?

sorry mike but on a road going car its a better option to change the oil feed line every 3 years like a fuel filter and not spend on pretty parts

also why dont car manufacturers fit these to there production cars,,,, surely the r&d department of volvo/ford/mitsubishi/subaru ect ect know MORE than the guys at bailey who make,,,,, erm shiney stuff for cars that aint needed,,,,, they also make swirl pots for erst's and breather systems with the same size hosing as the standard system and some systems you keep the oem breather system

this is why i cant see the point,, as much as the car people CLAIM to know more than fords,,,, im sorry but id take volvos r&d department over a company who make shiney parts for a cars advice

so i STILL think its a load of old pony designed to hide the " sorry but the turbos aint very good and i dont wanna supply a new one" get out clause

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Ginge, im not aware of any Volvo that comes with a GT turbo on it as standard.

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Put simply, because modern day filters are a LOT better than the shonky old EFL90s / 298s that are fitted to the Cossies. As far as I am aware, it just seems to be an issue with the Cossies and is possibly a product of the turbo oil feed design. However, in my experience, fitting one is a very good idea on a (new build) Cossie.

Ginge !

chip the new turbod cars are fitted with new design turbos aint they ?

i know the focus st aint got a garret T3 fitted to it

though the older audi tt has got a t34

but your trying to reply with a question that bears NO relevence,,, as i was wondering why they are needed for the cossie boys,, when there made by a company who makes shiney products,,, who seem to know more than the tech departments of the big car companys,,,, i doubt bailey could tell you the reason why bmw use a different oil to ford,, or why transit diesels dont use a diesel oil but a normal semi synth 5w30 like the rest of the ford range apart from the old galaxy

i find it hard to swallow that the reason for fitting it is cause you been told by a tuner who,, to be fair aint had the unlimited test till it breaks that the car companys add in there budgets when building cars,,, ford and other companys test there cars for asmany situations as possible,,, ok they get problems like the mk6 fiesta clutch cable current recall,,, and other stuff that they learn about during the time for recalls,,,, but ive not had one call out note stating the focus ST needs a prefilter and NEVER have volvo or saab fitted them to there cars,,,, and they been using turbo applications for how many years consistantly,,,, volvo turbo engines last for over 150k miles,,, saab is about 100k,,, then its the turbos that fail on the saabs first and depreciation sends em to the scrappy

but STILL no pre filters,,, even on the OLD saab turbos/volvos

i personally thing that the oil feed gets jammed when the engines aint looked after,,,, but a good looked after engine should NOT had jet black goopy oil coming out of if when looked after from new ( rebuild),,, but the carbon in high mileage engines i agree,,, as theres LOTS of shite in some of them,,, if you stick engine flush in them the amount of crap that comes out,,, well yes i can see the problem,,,, but then the engines are fucked and on borrowed time anyway as the engine flush then makes the engine burn oil or smoke as that same gunk was hiding the problems so the prefilter is also gonna hide a problem i guess and get blocked

hope you see where im going with this

Ginge !

and mike the efl10 as used on a fiesta aint that much different

im gonna have a look when i start my new job to see what other cars uses a cossie filter,, the erst's can use the same filter as the zetecs and im sure they use the ka filter as standard,,, aint got microcat to check and aint touched a erst filter for erm,,, well gotta be over a year

i fitted a 1066071 filter to xrt-si's fiesta and dancossies old efi erst though i know that

anyway just asking to be sure as nobody seems to have PROOF they are needed and theres a better argument that there not

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Ginge, I do actually see your point mate (fooking hell, someone write down the date of this monumental occurance)

However, the car manufacturers dont modify cars to run to the utter limit of the turbo etc, if they did then they may fit extra filters.

Also, if they fitted this sort of filter there are several issues for them:
1) they just increased the cost of the car
2) they just increased the service costs
3) they just increased the chance of failure if a service is missed on the item


Plus like Mike said, they HAVE recognised the problem, they have just solved it in other ways through better overall filtration and less generation of swarf in the first place.


Have you ever seen inside the pump of a well used cossie engine?

Jesus christ, the amount of swarf missing just from there is more than most modern engines will generate from the entire engine in its whole life, so no matter how clean the oil going into it is, the oil coming out of it is potentially in a right state, and adding a filter straight after the pump thats good enough to catch the very fine elements that damage a turbo wouldnt be practical as it would cause a huge strain on the pump to push all the oil for the engine through it, so putitng a fine filter just where its needed makes sense.

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Also, just to clarify, please note that we're not using the Bailey ones....

Ginge !

chip i know what you mean by the swarf,,, but is that on clean engines,, my engine wasnt a well looked after one and theres no swarf in there,,, and i ran the engine with very little oil in it,,,, also my t34 turbo was fine ( for sale if anyone is interested )

just think that even though the idea is a good one,,, just seems that a magnet on the sump/filter maybe another idea to go for ( yes i know there allow sumps btw)

considering theres no gauge on them,,, how do you know when there blocked, what testing was done,, what was the results and how many cars back to back on the same test to prove it works or is it a idea that sounds soo good and has been backed by tuners to avoid warranty,,, cause think about it from MY point of view

you buy a car from a dealer he sells you a set of mats,,,, you buy a engine/turbo you also buy a filter to save the turbos life

garrett dont sell one with there turbos YET they fit water cooling to there turbos ?

as for the servicing for car manufactuers,,, seriously do you know how much it would cost to make these filters and then sell every 3 years at a 60% mark up,,,,, they would also save on the warranty claims as they have to pay the dealers the time for fitting the wasted parts

ford have recalled EVERY ford fiesta with a clutch pedal due to a 20pence clip to be fitted due to a design fault,,, do you realise how much that costs for a 20p part they never fitted,,, but they do it as they have to incase theres further costs

warranty issues can fold a car company over time ( when was the last time you thought of buying a tvr new )

pete mcrash

iTrader: (1)

mine is the same as Franco's.......................seems good to me

R4N SS

iTrader: (6)

thats the one i have and Pon sold it to me years ago a t acar show once

GARETH T

what filter partical size do you filters go down to mike?

Carlsworth

garrett dont sell one with there turbos YET they fit water cooling to there turbos ?



garrett added the water cooling jackets to help prevent the turbo failing as quickly....

remeber,....
average joe who buys a car to get to work and back, and has absolutely no knowledge or interest in a car, drives it down the motorway, at 80-90 cause he s late for work, parks up outside work, and turns the engine off....he does not care to take the time to let the turbo cool down...

the water cooling helps the turbo ever so slightly,....but it does help...
also, for when sat in traffic jams etc..


so...
thats the reason for that....
and this is why people design/bring to market these types of things,.....as in their opinion, it helps...even if its ever so slightly,...it helps...



same with the turbo filters...
if the car is kept in good running order then why not have a turbo filter....if you want one....


carl

Ginge !

cause if the turbo people DONT fit them as they have thought of ideas to keep the turbo running longer than the warranty period ( remember cars have to give a 3 year warranty,,, garret will also have to honor that for the car companies to get involved) then im sure they would have thought of the idea A LONG TIME AGO

fitting pointless part and wasting money on them aint a good idea if there pointless,,, yet people make them and sell them as a good idea,,, swirl pot for erst,,,,, they marketed it for them even though its already got one,,,, they say its better when,,,,, well it aint

breather systems that use the factor size pipe outlets,,,,, again pointless but people sell them and tuners recomend them,,,, why i wonder

OH YEAH ITS CAUSE THEY MAKE MORE MONEY FROM THE FOOL WHO BUYS THEM

remember that story about the king who bought the invisable clothes,,,, he thought he looked the nuts aswell cause he was told by his tailor but everyone could see he was naked

ive just realised why i was told this story as a child,,,, its cause my old man new these things would be made

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

That is 100% correct. Garrett originally fitted water cooling to aid the warm up and cooling down process of the oil (on the T series)...

It's only the GT series that uses the water-cooling as PROPER cooling.

SapphyMike

Its nice to see that alot of the replies to this post are by people who have no idea and its all guestimates

we were advised to use one, so we are.

I dont confess to know all the ins and outs of them, so I arent going to say anything LOL

however, how many standard cars in this country roll off the production line with a GT30 + fitted?

Ginge !

saphymike,,,, you dont know if its shit or good so you fit it,,, theres a good thing to do

ive asked some questions and nobody whos fitted one can seem to answer other than then been told to buy it or theres no warranty

gareth asked about what particle size it filters and what the normal oil filter filters yet no reply,,, thats gotta be the IMPORTANT thing to know before bolting a filter that could block with swarf and kill the turbo anyway surely ?

would you also paint you rocker cover blue if you was told it keeps the heat out better ?

Carlsworth

It's only the GT series that uses the water-cooling as PROPER cooling.

aaaaaiiiiii



Its nice to see that alot of the replies to this post are by people who have no idea and its all guestimates

cheeky barstard

remember cars have to give a 3 year warranty,,, garret will also have to honor that for the car companies to get involved) then im sure they would have thought of the idea A LONG TIME AGO

ginge,..your forgeting one crucial factor about average joe...
his turbo will only run standard boost...6/7/8-10 psi
and even the way average joe drives, the turbo should last longer than the warranty period

hence, not fitting a oil filter, as theres no real need

GARETH T

mike?

Disabled Account

Dont know about Mike's filters.........but the Bailey ones use a gauze that filters particles down to 25 microns

Ginge !

mate swarf is NOT boost dependant though, the prefilter has nothing to do with boost as the turbo will still spin at very high rpm but the air will be bled off,,, the oil pumping round it will also be at the same presure would it not being the engine is still controlling the oil flow ?

so that statment means nothing to filtration of particles in the oil lines

gt series turbos also dont mention need to run a turbo filter,,, but must run water hence them fitting it ?

your argument makes no sence on prefilters as theres no better oil filter supplied for the engines that would to the EXACT SAME !

think about the oil plumbing for a turbo for a while,,, ignore the rest of it as its the route that takes you need to think about and ive not heard a good argument for a prefilter other than " in was advised so ill fit one as it can do no harm" when in theory it can

remember that regular oil changes stop bad oil and worn egines make the oil black !!!

ive done oil changes on new cars for there first service and it dont look like the oil from my 1300

the oil in my cossie engine looked like treacle in colour when i stripped the engine apart,,,, thats when looked at in a small glass

hope that helps to explain a little

SapphyMike

I know its got to be better than the stupidly shit small oil ways on a GT30 core, and as the cores are fucking expensive to replace, and prevention is often better than the cure, it stands to reason that for the price of the filter, it was a sound investment, given that my tuner advised it be fitted.

and no, i wouldnt paint my rocker cover blue. 1 reason is because i dont own an RS Turbo (or a cosworth for that matter, but they have cam cover, so i doubt you were talking about one of them )

Secondly i can see no benefit to having a blue cam cover, but can appreciate the potential benefits of an oil filter on a Ł1000 turbo.

you have no evidence to prove that they dont work.

RichardPON

I have.

I ran my T34 for three years primarily on track, and looked after the car and engine as you would expect.

The turbo never suffered from any sort of oil contamination whatsoever..... because the oil wasn't contaminated.

It is most turbo supplier's get out of jail free card, as there's no way of proving otherwise.

Not saying they don't work, as clearly they do, and on a brand new engine I can see the point, but beyond that?

Ginge !

i have the sence that NO car manufactuer ever fitted one to there cars weather it be bmw/audi/ford/volvo or saab

NONE ! and nobody can mention the microns of a normal filter no show tests wher they have wworked and why they make them in pretty colours too yet companies like motorcraft or champion dont make them for competition cars ?

GARETH T

and what does the oil filter filter down to?

SapphyMike

why would they make them for competition cars?

the engine only needs to hold itself together for what, 300 miles?

And remember, new cars are made to a price, not a standard (the opposite of the cosworth engine as per chips post in another thread).

Accountants run the car industry, not engineers!

And as i said, how many production cars in this country have a GT30 + fitted as standard?

rememeber, the cosworth engine isnt a modern engine.

Rich,

I can see your point completely as you have some decent results, but then that was on a T34, which i would understand having run a T34 myself, doesnt need a turbo oil filter.

but for the GT series, given how shit the core is, i'd run one.

SapphyMike

according to the bailey motorsport site, oil filters filter to 100 microns. how true that is i do not know.

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Gareth,
149 Microns.

Please note that I am recommending these on NEW builds only, after a few thousand miles, they can be removed .

R4N SS

iTrader: (6)

mine is the same as what franco has

boXXer

so basically Ł80 to run for 500 miles, then remove.

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

I would keep it on for a few thousand at least.

In fact, I treat mine as a service item and clean it out regularly and keep it on, but that is MY choice.

Chris Honeywell

Whats to stop the Turbo suppliers still refusing any warrenty claims in the name of oil contamination EVEN If a turbo pre-filter has been fitted,
they could just say you never had it fitted at the time , how could you prove it ...

Mind when you think how much cossies cost to run if i was told to fit one i would

R4N SS

iTrader: (6)

mine has been on the car for a few years - still didnt help the fact i have the cossie eats turbos for breakfast @ 2bar