Zetec and RPM
02-04-2007, 01:42 PM
#1
Zetec and RPM
Saw the other thread, which was mainly talking about turbos, but I have a far simple question.
Zetec bottom end, what is required to allow it to safely pull to each of the following:
7500rpm
7750rpm
8000rpm
Ie at what point do you need new rob bolts, and at what point do you need new rods?
Im TOTALLY uninterested for the point of this thread in cams/headwork/turbos or anything of that nature, im just interested in at what RPM the standard bolts tend to fail, and the standard rods tend to stretch and fail, and any other components such as the crank or block or pistons that may fail at 8000rpm or so.
Hope that makes sense!
CheeRS in advance
Zetec bottom end, what is required to allow it to safely pull to each of the following:
7500rpm
7750rpm
8000rpm
Ie at what point do you need new rob bolts, and at what point do you need new rods?
Im TOTALLY uninterested for the point of this thread in cams/headwork/turbos or anything of that nature, im just interested in at what RPM the standard bolts tend to fail, and the standard rods tend to stretch and fail, and any other components such as the crank or block or pistons that may fail at 8000rpm or so.
Hope that makes sense!
CheeRS in advance
02-04-2007, 01:51 PM
#2
PassionFord Post Troll
Not sure really.
Standard management won't let you rev it past 7k so would have to be on aftermarket stuff.
I would have thought 7.5k would have been a safe max with the addition of some arp rod bolts???
Standard management won't let you rev it past 7k so would have to be on aftermarket stuff.
I would have thought 7.5k would have been a safe max with the addition of some arp rod bolts???
02-04-2007, 01:55 PM
#3
Originally Posted by Garage19
Not sure really.
Standard management won't let you rev it past 7k so would have to be on aftermarket stuff.
I would have thought 7.5k would have been a safe max with the addition of some arp rod bolts???
Standard management won't let you rev it past 7k so would have to be on aftermarket stuff.
I would have thought 7.5k would have been a safe max with the addition of some arp rod bolts???
Nothing external to the engien interests me in this thread, and nothing in the head, just purely the bottom end
Sounds reasonable on the rod bolts, Ive heard 7200 bandied around as a limit for the standard ones?
What about rods? What can they hack?
and what if they are shotpeened?
02-04-2007, 02:14 PM
#6
Sorry mate, should have included that detail I guess!
XRStu has a fiesta that I will be nitrousing for him, I may choose to extend the rpm that it runs in order to maximise the BHP output without making too much torque (FWD, so once its hooked up I would like to keep the torque curve relatively flat all the way up for as long as possible before he has to change gear again)
Engine is standard internals, I know that the lifters wont cope much beyond 8000rpm, and its going to be running on aftermarket anyway as its on TB's
I know all the stuff about the standard cams not being good for power that far up the rev range when run N/A but that wont effect me when using it on nitrous.
XRStu has a fiesta that I will be nitrousing for him, I may choose to extend the rpm that it runs in order to maximise the BHP output without making too much torque (FWD, so once its hooked up I would like to keep the torque curve relatively flat all the way up for as long as possible before he has to change gear again)
Engine is standard internals, I know that the lifters wont cope much beyond 8000rpm, and its going to be running on aftermarket anyway as its on TB's
I know all the stuff about the standard cams not being good for power that far up the rev range when run N/A but that wont effect me when using it on nitrous.
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02-04-2007, 02:22 PM
#8
ive been led to belive that the std bottom end is good for about 7krpm, then to always use ARP bolts after this.
i have no technical data or had any experiance to back this up tho.
might be worth getting a shitter and revving it till it dies lol, can be had for next to nothing these days
i have no technical data or had any experiance to back this up tho.
might be worth getting a shitter and revving it till it dies lol, can be had for next to nothing these days
02-04-2007, 02:22 PM
#9
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my dads running a n/a zetec in his dax rush.
i remember him saying that they raised the rev limiter when he went for a remap for 215bhp.
he has uprated rod bolts but cant remember if he had them at the old spec when he was running 175bhp.
also cant remember what they raised the limiter too.
but i will ask when i speak to him and let you know what his tuner reccomended to him at the time.
i remember him saying that they raised the rev limiter when he went for a remap for 215bhp.
he has uprated rod bolts but cant remember if he had them at the old spec when he was running 175bhp.
also cant remember what they raised the limiter too.
but i will ask when i speak to him and let you know what his tuner reccomended to him at the time.
02-04-2007, 02:31 PM
#11
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ok just spoke to him.
dunnell who built his engine basically reccomend changing the rod bolts very early on when tuning the zetec.
he run a totally standard bottom end except new rod bolts when he was running 175 bhp.
now be uped to 215 and didnt touch the bottom end.
dunno if this helps you at all. but he speaks highly of dunnell and has been very happy with their work/service and knowledge.
dunnell who built his engine basically reccomend changing the rod bolts very early on when tuning the zetec.
he run a totally standard bottom end except new rod bolts when he was running 175 bhp.
now be uped to 215 and didnt touch the bottom end.
dunno if this helps you at all. but he speaks highly of dunnell and has been very happy with their work/service and knowledge.
02-04-2007, 02:36 PM
#12
Cowboi, excellent stuff, do you know what RPM his limiter is at now on the standard rods + ARP bolts?
Dan, trouble with trying to rev a shitter is:
A) the bolts will fail before I learn anything I dont know already
B) the limiter wont let you
If needs be though, we will do this anyway as the bottom end stu has is essentially disposable, but the more we can learn without having to do it by trial and error the better
Dan, trouble with trying to rev a shitter is:
A) the bolts will fail before I learn anything I dont know already
B) the limiter wont let you
If needs be though, we will do this anyway as the bottom end stu has is essentially disposable, but the more we can learn without having to do it by trial and error the better
02-04-2007, 02:39 PM
#13
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his is set to 7200 now.
thinking about it i think he also has a dry sump and lightened fly wheel.
doubt that will have any effect on what the rods/bolts can handle. but just incase u know different thought i'd tell ya
thinking about it i think he also has a dry sump and lightened fly wheel.
doubt that will have any effect on what the rods/bolts can handle. but just incase u know different thought i'd tell ya
02-04-2007, 02:42 PM
#14
PassionFord Post Troll
Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
Sorry mate, should have included that detail I guess!
XRStu has a fiesta that I will be nitrousing for him, I may choose to extend the rpm that it runs in order to maximise the BHP output without making too much torque (FWD, so once its hooked up I would like to keep the torque curve relatively flat all the way up for as long as possible before he has to change gear again)
Engine is standard internals, I know that the lifters wont cope much beyond 8000rpm, and its going to be running on aftermarket anyway as its on TB's
I know all the stuff about the standard cams not being good for power that far up the rev range when run N/A but that wont effect me when using it on nitrous.
XRStu has a fiesta that I will be nitrousing for him, I may choose to extend the rpm that it runs in order to maximise the BHP output without making too much torque (FWD, so once its hooked up I would like to keep the torque curve relatively flat all the way up for as long as possible before he has to change gear again)
Engine is standard internals, I know that the lifters wont cope much beyond 8000rpm, and its going to be running on aftermarket anyway as its on TB's
I know all the stuff about the standard cams not being good for power that far up the rev range when run N/A but that wont effect me when using it on nitrous.
The valve spring are also a bit on the weak side for high rpm so need changing. The later heads have worst valve springs but better followers.
02-04-2007, 02:45 PM
#15
Originally Posted by Cowboi
his is set to 7200 now.
thinking about it i think he also has a dry sump and lightened fly wheel.
doubt that will have any effect on what the rods/bolts can handle. but just incase u know different thought i'd tell ya
thinking about it i think he also has a dry sump and lightened fly wheel.
doubt that will have any effect on what the rods/bolts can handle. but just incase u know different thought i'd tell ya
02-04-2007, 02:47 PM
#16
Originally Posted by Garage19
Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
Sorry mate, should have included that detail I guess!
XRStu has a fiesta that I will be nitrousing for him, I may choose to extend the rpm that it runs in order to maximise the BHP output without making too much torque (FWD, so once its hooked up I would like to keep the torque curve relatively flat all the way up for as long as possible before he has to change gear again)
Engine is standard internals, I know that the lifters wont cope much beyond 8000rpm, and its going to be running on aftermarket anyway as its on TB's
I know all the stuff about the standard cams not being good for power that far up the rev range when run N/A but that wont effect me when using it on nitrous.
XRStu has a fiesta that I will be nitrousing for him, I may choose to extend the rpm that it runs in order to maximise the BHP output without making too much torque (FWD, so once its hooked up I would like to keep the torque curve relatively flat all the way up for as long as possible before he has to change gear again)
Engine is standard internals, I know that the lifters wont cope much beyond 8000rpm, and its going to be running on aftermarket anyway as its on TB's
I know all the stuff about the standard cams not being good for power that far up the rev range when run N/A but that wont effect me when using it on nitrous.
The valve spring are also a bit on the weak side for high rpm so need changing. The later heads have worst valve springs but better followers.
02-04-2007, 02:49 PM
#17
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could be worth ringing dunnell and ask them a few questions chip.
i know i said they was very helpfull for my dad, but he also spent lots of money with them.
cant guarantee you'll get the same service, but wont hurt to try.
they seam to be pretty clued up on zetecs.
i know i said they was very helpfull for my dad, but he also spent lots of money with them.
cant guarantee you'll get the same service, but wont hurt to try.
they seam to be pretty clued up on zetecs.
02-04-2007, 03:00 PM
#20
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Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
Cheers for the tip, but I would sooner not waste the time of a company we dont intend to spend money with, not fair IMHO
good luck with it what ever u end up doing. be interesting to see how fast u can get it going before things start to fail
04-04-2007, 08:15 PM
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There's talk of the standard oil pump gearing failing at over 7400.
CFM in the states make a pump with billet gearing but it's ŁŁŁ
You can fit a ST170 oil pump - it'll fit and be safe to around 7800 at least.
CFM in the states make a pump with billet gearing but it's ŁŁŁ
You can fit a ST170 oil pump - it'll fit and be safe to around 7800 at least.
04-04-2007, 08:23 PM
#23
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A few years back we did an blacktop zetech with an rotrex kompressor on it.
It made 467brake on std bottom end, just arp`s.
The oilpump let go a number of times, but when we lowered the rpm to 7500 there was no problems anymore.(gear failing)
This engine is for sale now btw
It made 467brake on std bottom end, just arp`s.
The oilpump let go a number of times, but when we lowered the rpm to 7500 there was no problems anymore.(gear failing)
This engine is for sale now btw
04-04-2007, 08:26 PM
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04-04-2007, 08:29 PM
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I rev mine to 7800rpm on a standard bottom end with ARP rod bolts, 8000rpm on the dyno. Had no problems after quite a few track days.
Above 7200rpm I think ARP's are advisable.
HTH
Above 7200rpm I think ARP's are advisable.
HTH
04-04-2007, 08:32 PM
#27
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Originally Posted by YoungDan
Zetec-SE will do 8000rpm with uprated conrod bolts, well Shawspeed cars do...
And mine will be limited to 7600rpm with uprated bolts.
And mine will be limited to 7600rpm with uprated bolts.
04-04-2007, 10:56 PM
#30
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i know of a fella revving the arse out of his 2.0 zetec thats had to develop a new oilpump to carry on revving it as the std item fell to bits. hes planning on making a few of these so aslong as theyre not pisstakingly expensive i can get one of these if we end up revving it past 8.
i hadnt planned on revving the car much past 7 up until the weekend when me and chip started seriously thinking about what we were gonna do nitrous wise so ive not thougth about valve springs or lifters. maybe something i need to look into then....
i hadnt planned on revving the car much past 7 up until the weekend when me and chip started seriously thinking about what we were gonna do nitrous wise so ive not thougth about valve springs or lifters. maybe something i need to look into then....
05-04-2007, 10:27 PM
#34
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Ah... first I've heard about the oil pump issue!
My zetec is being built to around 240bhp and to rev to 8500.
If anyone has further detail regarding this, I'd really appreciate it
My zetec is being built to around 240bhp and to rev to 8500.
If anyone has further detail regarding this, I'd really appreciate it
06-04-2007, 08:20 AM
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Cheers lads - we're using the early zetec bottom end on mine. I assume all zetecs suffer from this problem, not just a specific model of them?
I'll have a look into both those products... the last thing I want is paranoia creeping in about my 10k engine when I'm hammering it around a track!!
I'll have a look into both those products... the last thing I want is paranoia creeping in about my 10k engine when I'm hammering it around a track!!
06-04-2007, 08:42 AM
#38
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Originally Posted by Ex-Finesse
240bhp and to rev to 8500.
06-04-2007, 08:48 AM
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A little more relevant to Chips thread:
I beleive the ST170 rev limiter is set in the high 7's. However this comes with steel rods!
Standard rods and pistons won't take much more than 7k. We were going to use forged pistons / shotpeened std. rods in my build, but even then it was not going to be revved beyond 7800!
Early zetecs with hydraulic lifters HATE high revs. These won't last long much past 7k, same as the rods / pistons.
Consequently it takes a LOT of money to increase the revs on a zetec from 7k to 8k (and not live on borrowed time).
Hope some of that helps. It's certainly a more cautious look at each item, and doesnt try to extract every last ounce of strength.
I beleive the ST170 rev limiter is set in the high 7's. However this comes with steel rods!
Standard rods and pistons won't take much more than 7k. We were going to use forged pistons / shotpeened std. rods in my build, but even then it was not going to be revved beyond 7800!
Early zetecs with hydraulic lifters HATE high revs. These won't last long much past 7k, same as the rods / pistons.
Consequently it takes a LOT of money to increase the revs on a zetec from 7k to 8k (and not live on borrowed time).
Hope some of that helps. It's certainly a more cautious look at each item, and doesnt try to extract every last ounce of strength.
06-04-2007, 08:54 AM
#40
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Originally Posted by Johnny Knoxville
Originally Posted by Ex-Finesse
240bhp and to rev to 8500.
However I think your mate is using 48s? I'm sticking with butterfly 45s, so power will essentially be restricted by these, but should make the power and torque curves smoother.