Just looking for peoples experiences and thoughts on this...

Basically a friend of mine had a management system fitted to his car and mapped by a well known mapper.

The car made well under the expected power level and said mapper had three goes at trying to correct this to no avail.

The car is now being looked at by another mapper but we have hit a problem.

The original mapper wont give unlock code to the map for fear of it being copied and now says if anyone else want to alter the map they will have to re map the entire car base, idle, cold start and everything.

this will obviously cost my friend ALOT more cash rather than just a few hours or so to alter the map already on the car.

I have experience of using two very well known mappers and both have shared maps with no other thought apart from to the get the best from my car.

Other friends of mine have used other TOP mappers and have full acces to their maps with no probs other than voiding any mapping warranty etc.

So th long and the short of it is....does this mapper have the right to refuse my friend the right to a map that he has paid for and therfore owns?

 

if he paid for a map then its his map simple as.

the sale of goods act comes in quite nicely here.

 

That is something that should be settled beforehand. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case here.

The mapper can claim it is intellectual property and your friend can claim that he paid for a service.

It gets messy in the legal arena at this point (at least in the US)

 

I would say no!! when I have had cars live mapped in the past I have always been able to get in and look at the maps etc and make changes if needed, as said just voids the warantee which doesnt exist anyway lol. IMO he should have the right to change it if he wants to.

 

thats pretty much what i have been thinking...

the mapper is point blank refusing to unlock it tho

whats the best way to get around this?

 

is he 100% its the map at fault?!

Alex

 

the car has a fundemental flaw that is being investigated...access to the map is needed to make some alterations to help investigation.

 

Spill the beans!

 

This is a grey area as mappers are conserned, For me all my Ecu's are locked as a protection for me so no one plays with it then breaks the engine a returns it back then blames the mapper,
However I will leave a Ecu unlocked if I know it is then going on to be tweaked elsewhere, If I have locked a Ecu and the owner wants some one else to map then they can send Ecu or pop over for it to be unlocked foc,
I look at it as being the Distributor of Autronic it is not good biusness for me to be other than 100% as helpfull as I can .

Mark

 

without more info its hard to see what you are getting at :S

 

Mark do you think you can get some more horses from Raj's car, i presume thats the E8 you did, how close do you think you can get to the magic 400/400 ?

cheers mike

 

In the Jap (deffo skyline) tuning world in the UK they always lock maps.

But it makes no odds as none of them seem to be able to map that well barring Sheady anyhow, and only a coupla Skylines run Autronic

 

I remember you explaining this to me when you did mine Mark.

I can understand the bit about broken engine from people messing with maps etc.

My friend has told the mapper that he is happy to void any warranty etc but he is sticking to his guns.



Says he doesnt want anyone copying his map...as if the thing fooking dies on its arse at 6k

 

the car makes very low power for what it is...the new mapper needs acces to alter the map to his settings to try and increase power.

what we are trying to do is not important, but we defo need acces to the map that already there to save spending hours completely remapping the car.

 

the system im on about is not autronic..

it needs to be looked at/altered...should we be denied that privilage considering that my friend payed for the map and the system....this in my eyes makes it his property...

Its like someone selling you a house then telling you that you cant re decorate

 

It depends on whether you bought the existing map as a good or a service, the way it sounds.

 

how would you determine that escort WRC?

 

Personally I think:

When having a car mapped you are paying for the mappers expertise, knowledge and time.

I would not expect an unlock code, and if you are unpleased with their work why would you want to continue using their map? (obviously due to cost but if it was not happy with one part of the mapping I'd want it all re done by somebody else!)

I think if good relations however are kept with you and your mapper they would do things to help in times of problems, however this is obviously not the case here!

 

my friend is in good relations.

cost and time are the big problems here...why should my friend have to pay to have his car mapped a second time?

 

Yes and maybe yes

Mark

 

There is 3 that I have done one runs 9sec qt, another runs 9.9qt the other runs 10.02 .
There may also be a pnp version soon.

Mark

 

It's not that straightforward though, is it Markk?

My car was dyno mapped, then live mapped/tweaked @ Brunters - this doesn't mean that map is mine and that I can sell it on to people. (in the same way I've bought some software - it's mine to use, but not to modify or resale)*

If copying maps didn't go on, then people wouldn't use protection boards & systems etc. (general comment, not aimed at anyone in this thread). I've seen a map that was from tuner xyz, yet the original mappers comment/copyright notice was still there to see! (if you knew what you were doing, which tuner xyz obviously didn't!)

The issue of intellectual property is widely recognised (IMO) when it comes to maps / chips and their contents.

*Maybe it's time for mappers to license their work, that way everyone knows where they stand.

I hope your friend reaches a satisfactory solution Euan.

 

He shouldn't obviosuly, BUT he is clearly not happy with the job...

Clearly after 3 further failed attempts the mapper cannot find/fix the problem so once changing mapper i wouldn't expect much out of the original map or mapper tbh.

Whoever is doing it now (I presume AVA) do they not have a base map for his spec?

 

Mark, why have none of these cars Raj and JonRS2 got turbo elbows fitted ?


Euan you mention that they mapper is well known ? then why can he not get it to make/do what it is claimed it should do what are his reasons for it ??

Mike

 

[quote="Captain Mike"]Mark, why have none of these cars Raj and JonRS2 got turbo elbows fitted ?

Mike

No none have.

Mark

 

Gotta say fair play to the mapper..

I know Karl spent fuckin ages on Tiff's and Popeyes cars to perfect the "Gunship" map. I know its a bit different as its very dependant on the engine as to whether you can have a "Gunship" style map.

But why should all Karls R+D be available to any tom,dick and harry to plug into any car.


Personally- if the new mapper is any good he should already have a resonable base map of his own for the specific spec of car your mate has.

He would need a good base anyway to be able to start the car and go from there.

He should then work with the map from there.

If someone elses map is faulty or not up to the job to start with- why go over and correct other peoples mistakes when he can simply go from his own already free from errors base map.

In my opinion of course.

Ultimatly it doesn't matter a shite what the masses of people say on an internet forum. Its down to the customer and mapper.


Jake

 

the car makes decent power but I believe the cams/head/turbo are mismatched as the power band is VERY short.

The mapper is a 3 hour drive from where we are in Scotland and has had three attempts at rectifying the problem.

He is looking in the wrong place for the problem but will not take anyone elses advice

 

Problem solved...


A mapper no matter how good will never sort out a mismatch of parts and make them perfect.

Jake

 

Not a nice position to be in, as I said before, I do hope your friend reaches a satisfactory solution.

 

The new mapper has never mapped said car before.. the engine is of non standard type and has different turbo etc etc etc...

the new mapper can fully map the car with no problems, but thats not the point...cost to the the owner of the car IS.

Like i said I have had my car mapped by two of the best mappers in the country who have both seen each others maps and have had no probs sharing maps to get the best from my car, so why can this other mapper be the same?

 

We know this and are looking to rectify the prob but need to do some testing first.. we need to see what the ECU is doing at the moment.

 

I dont mean to get your back up at all and hope I havent - but this is the first thing to sort and then get the car re mapped to suit the corrected spec.

You're never going to win trying to map a car that isn't spec'd correctly.

Jake

 

if the mapper has spent time and his expertiese on it then why can someone just come along and 'tweek' his map.

why cannot your new mapper sort a new map out if he thinks he can sort the first map out.

is the first mapper Stu, as i know he has strong points on other people 'copying' chips and selling them etc....

 

Its cool jake

we are not trying to remap the car at the moment but need access to the map to do some testing....like i have said

 

Dave..the car is not a ford and its no mapper that uses this site or related to anyone on here.

The new mapper CAN map the car with no problems but why should he have to?

 

Dave..the car is not a ford and its no mapper that uses this site or related to anyone on here.

The new mapper CAN map the car with no problems but why should he have to?[/quote]

because the first one is not right for him and the car.

 

because the first one is not right for him and the car. [/quote]



Way i see it that my friend should not have to pay twice for his mapping.

 

the only way then is to give it back to the first one and tell him your mate is not happy.

he must have done his best the first time though so i cannot see how he can rectify the situation unless you sort out the mis-matched parts.

 

the original mapper thinks the car is fine

says its better to have peak power at 6k

makes for a very short power band considering the car runs a GT30.

the peak power is ok but it cant hold onto any sort of power after 6k.

the original mapper has had three shots at fixing it but still sayes it fine, thats why a descision was made to go elsewhere.

 

Who specc'd the parts Euan?

I know it doesn't help your friend, but this is one of the reasons I let my tuner spec' my engine/turbo/cams etc. I just told him what I was expecting from a road car - a brief both Harvey & Ahmed overdelivered on in my case.