Football managers
29-01-2007, 12:24 AM
#1
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Football managers
How much do you reckon is to actual managing ability and how much is down to the money they have to spend?
Do you think we'll ever again see the likes of what Brian Clough acheived at Forset and Derby? FFS that Forest side was full of sweaty socks for a start and he still won stuff
winning leagues and european cups with sub par teams would be un heard of today, and he never got the England job 
I can only think of 2 instances since him where managers have done well with mediocre teams, Fergie with Aberdeen and Martin O'Neil with Leicester, some of them now days have bottomless pockets and they still cant buy a win, let alone winning everything. Just puts his achievements into perspective, especially considering one of the new pretenders is refered to as "The Special One"
Not really a "big up cloughie" thread, more of a put down to modern managers who seem to think buying yet another player to solve a problem is the answer when they havent extracted the best from the players they already have.
Do you think we'll ever again see the likes of what Brian Clough acheived at Forset and Derby? FFS that Forest side was full of sweaty socks for a start and he still won stuff
winning leagues and european cups with sub par teams would be un heard of today, and he never got the England job I can only think of 2 instances since him where managers have done well with mediocre teams, Fergie with Aberdeen and Martin O'Neil with Leicester, some of them now days have bottomless pockets and they still cant buy a win, let alone winning everything. Just puts his achievements into perspective, especially considering one of the new pretenders is refered to as "The Special One"
Not really a "big up cloughie" thread, more of a put down to modern managers who seem to think buying yet another player to solve a problem is the answer when they havent extracted the best from the players they already have.
29-01-2007, 12:32 AM
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probably impossible for anybody outside of the 'big four' to challenge and give that opportunity to someone....
it's hard to say;
i don't rate Maureen at all,Wenger has a great eye for young talent,and probably hasn't got the credit he deserves cos he whines too much.
Fergie has obviously won loads,but he's had loads of backing.....Benitez could be considered for what he did at Valencia etc,but again he has a good amount of backing at LFC.
Curbishley is struggling now....i really can't think of any?
it's hard to say;
i don't rate Maureen at all,Wenger has a great eye for young talent,and probably hasn't got the credit he deserves cos he whines too much.
Fergie has obviously won loads,but he's had loads of backing.....Benitez could be considered for what he did at Valencia etc,but again he has a good amount of backing at LFC.
Curbishley is struggling now....i really can't think of any?
29-01-2007, 12:50 AM
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Mourinho is a joke IMO. Hes not shit as you still have to be good even to win silverware with the big teams of each country like FC Porto (portugal) but at Chelski and the money they have spent over the last 3 summers, not just on transfer fees but on the wages that attact players too makes it nearly a sure thing. United, Liverpool and Arsenal who are ACTUALLY big clubs not just a RICH club have probably spent far less what Chelski have in 1 summer over the last 3 summers. Let alone Ł200m.
Most of the club troubles are eliminated. For example look at whats happened to two BIG clubs in Leeds and Nottingham Forrest, Forrest who retained the European cup don't forget. What would happend if Bill Gates bought either one and splashed the cash? Exactly, premiership would be around the corner before long. If not trophies or enough sucess came then the manager would be fired. Same with Sheffield Wednesday or any other ex premiership side.
Leeds Uniteds trouble was they got big in terms of squad and cash/performances and did too much too soon. Viduka, Rio Ferdinand, Paul Robinson, Alan Smith, Bowyer, Woodgate, Kewell etc. Then spent more on the basis of champions league football. Forrest messed up after selling Stan Collymore and pissing the money up the wall on nothing players.
To make a club and turn it around, big or small takes a lot and Mourinho has not done that. I saw him on the tv recently talking about him leaving saying how the fans remember he brought them the title after 50 years without it, i just thought, FUCK OFF, ROMAN Abromaovich brought them the title not you. Dalglish did it at Blackburn with the money too. He actually believes he has done a remarkable thing. I don't.
Gullit/Vialli won Silverware with the graveshift/boneyard crew and on a budget. Thats what its all about.
Its a shame because i think managers like Pearce, Allardyce, Hughes etc MAY all do well at a big club with big resources but question is will they get the chance?
Most of the club troubles are eliminated. For example look at whats happened to two BIG clubs in Leeds and Nottingham Forrest, Forrest who retained the European cup don't forget. What would happend if Bill Gates bought either one and splashed the cash? Exactly, premiership would be around the corner before long. If not trophies or enough sucess came then the manager would be fired. Same with Sheffield Wednesday or any other ex premiership side.
Leeds Uniteds trouble was they got big in terms of squad and cash/performances and did too much too soon. Viduka, Rio Ferdinand, Paul Robinson, Alan Smith, Bowyer, Woodgate, Kewell etc. Then spent more on the basis of champions league football. Forrest messed up after selling Stan Collymore and pissing the money up the wall on nothing players.
To make a club and turn it around, big or small takes a lot and Mourinho has not done that. I saw him on the tv recently talking about him leaving saying how the fans remember he brought them the title after 50 years without it, i just thought, FUCK OFF, ROMAN Abromaovich brought them the title not you. Dalglish did it at Blackburn with the money too. He actually believes he has done a remarkable thing. I don't.
Gullit/Vialli won Silverware with the graveshift/boneyard crew and on a budget. Thats what its all about.
Its a shame because i think managers like Pearce, Allardyce, Hughes etc MAY all do well at a big club with big resources but question is will they get the chance?
29-01-2007, 12:54 AM
#7
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Originally Posted by Hardeep_Singh
one manager i have to give credit to is Harry Redknapp 
Are you serious, Singh? Ok ish at West ham for many years, Shit at Pompey, all the fuss about Southampton pinching him, Shit there no miracles, back to Pompey and shit bottom of the table battler UNTIL the new money comes in from the new chairman.
Its just that the new cash has funded players that Gelled this time. Kanu for example was a revelation at first. IMO Harry is not a good manager. Average at best. Like Ron Atkinson. Fair play to harry this season though hes used what he got well but Pompey are no longer in the same financial speding league as lower teams!
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29-01-2007, 01:13 AM
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Originally Posted by skeg
Mourinho is a joke IMO. Hes not shit as you still have to be good even to win silverware with the big teams of each country like FC Porto (portugal) but at Chelski and the money they have spent over the last 3 summers, not just on transfer fees but on the wages that attact players too makes it nearly a sure thing. United, Liverpool and Arsenal who are ACTUALLY big clubs not just a RICH club have probably spent far less what Chelski have in 1 summer over the last 3 summers. Let alone Ł200m.
Most of the club troubles are eliminated. For example look at whats happened to two BIG clubs in Leeds and Nottingham Forrest, Forrest who retained the European cup don't forget. What would happend if Bill Gates bought either one and splashed the cash? Exactly, premiership would be around the corner before long. If not trophies or enough sucess came then the manager would be fired. Same with Sheffield Wednesday or any other ex premiership side.
Leeds Uniteds trouble was they got big in terms of squad and cash/performances and did too much too soon. Viduka, Rio Ferdinand, Paul Robinson, Alan Smith, Bowyer, Woodgate, Kewell etc. Then spent more on the basis of champions league football. Forrest messed up after selling Stan Collymore and pissing the money up the wall on nothing players.
To make a club and turn it around, big or small takes a lot and Mourinho has not done that. I saw him on the tv recently talking about him leaving saying how the fans remember he brought them the title after 50 years without it, i just thought, FUCK OFF, ROMAN Abromaovich brought them the title not you. Dalglish did it at Blackburn with the money too. He actually believes he has done a remarkable thing. I don't.
Gullit/Vialli won Silverware with the graveshift/boneyard crew and on a budget. Thats what its all about.
Its a shame because i think managers like Pearce, Allardyce, Hughes etc MAY all do well at a big club with big resources but question is will they get the chance?
Most of the club troubles are eliminated. For example look at whats happened to two BIG clubs in Leeds and Nottingham Forrest, Forrest who retained the European cup don't forget. What would happend if Bill Gates bought either one and splashed the cash? Exactly, premiership would be around the corner before long. If not trophies or enough sucess came then the manager would be fired. Same with Sheffield Wednesday or any other ex premiership side.
Leeds Uniteds trouble was they got big in terms of squad and cash/performances and did too much too soon. Viduka, Rio Ferdinand, Paul Robinson, Alan Smith, Bowyer, Woodgate, Kewell etc. Then spent more on the basis of champions league football. Forrest messed up after selling Stan Collymore and pissing the money up the wall on nothing players.
To make a club and turn it around, big or small takes a lot and Mourinho has not done that. I saw him on the tv recently talking about him leaving saying how the fans remember he brought them the title after 50 years without it, i just thought, FUCK OFF, ROMAN Abromaovich brought them the title not you. Dalglish did it at Blackburn with the money too. He actually believes he has done a remarkable thing. I don't.
Gullit/Vialli won Silverware with the graveshift/boneyard crew and on a budget. Thats what its all about.
Its a shame because i think managers like Pearce, Allardyce, Hughes etc MAY all do well at a big club with big resources but question is will they get the chance?
Vialli was an Excellent manager IMO, he achieved quite a bit for the amount of time he was there and the players he had, where is he now?I also think Martin O'Neil has done wonders at Villa, not spent hardly anything before the one big signing of that youth from Watford, and that was offset against getting rid of Baros I beleive? He's turned it around ok (ish) with the players that were at the club when he arrived, give him time and I think he could build a team there.
Forest had a string of bad managers who pissed money away on bell ends or were just plain shit, you're spot on there, Platt, Atkinson, Kinear etc. Paul Hart made a decent effort at it with a poor team and absolutely no money, we were Ł40m+ in debt while he was in charge, and he got us to the championship playoffs, fair play to him.
Calderwood seems to have the basis of good knowledge and wont take any shit off players getting above themselves, I hope he gets us promoted and we manage to stay alfoat long enough in the championship to build a team to challenge for the prem.
Edited to add, I'm not usually one for ifs and buts, but if we werent in such financial difficulty we could of kept a handfull of players that all went to the prem, Michael Dawson, Jermaine Jenas, Marlon Harewood, David Prutton and Andy Reid. That would of been the basis of a decent enough side to get us into the prem IMHO. I dont think we will have so many good players in the same team for a long time.
29-01-2007, 01:20 AM
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Originally Posted by RichardPON
How can you not rate Maureen? Did he not take Porto to the CL?
but that said,if he did have it....then it's certainly gone now....with unlimited resources he's built a boring predictable team,masses of wasted talent everywhere!!
29-01-2007, 06:15 AM
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One under-estimated Manager is Sam Allardyce, he has done well with Bolton on a limited budget and his club is nicely placed 5th in the tables. I would have liked to have seen him as England Manager and not that awful, spineless, clueless Steve McLaren.
I read somewhere recently before this current 'open window' that Chelsea have spent over 250m since Abramovich took over and since Rafa took over Liverpool, he has spent a grand total of 75m on buying 21 players, a lot of them are youth prospects for the future.
I read somewhere recently before this current 'open window' that Chelsea have spent over 250m since Abramovich took over and since Rafa took over Liverpool, he has spent a grand total of 75m on buying 21 players, a lot of them are youth prospects for the future.
29-01-2007, 07:35 AM
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Dario Gradi (sp) manager of Crewe for the past 19 odd years has to be in the top 3. Promoted from the Old Div 3 & 2 and then stayed in the old Div 1 (now championship) for at least 7 seasons on a shoe string.
Bit biased maybe - but Mike Newell spent a grand total of 250k in 2 seasons and won League 1 by 12 points and then finsihed 10th in the championship oh and scored 3 passed the European multi million pound champions liverpool
. We would be up there again right now if we didn't have to sell our 4 best players.
Bit biased maybe - but Mike Newell spent a grand total of 250k in 2 seasons and won League 1 by 12 points and then finsihed 10th in the championship oh and scored 3 passed the European multi million pound champions liverpool
. We would be up there again right now if we didn't have to sell our 4 best players.
29-01-2007, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by skeg
Leeds Uniteds trouble was they got big in terms of squad and cash/performances and did too much too soon. Viduka, Rio Ferdinand, Paul Robinson, Alan Smith, Bowyer, Woodgate, Kewell etc. Then spent more on the basis of champions league football.
the players like kewell and smith were probably on the lowest wages as they came through the academy and would have been tied down to long contracts from then.
as for the managers, you have to give mourinho credit for what he did at porto. to win the uefa cup and then the champions league the evry next season werent a fluke, fair enough hes got far too much money now and cant build a team spirit to challenge for the champions league now, same as real madrid with the "gallactico's" now capello has kiced out a few of them i would be surprised if they didnt win the spanish title next year.
allardyce is the one for me from this country who i would say is a good manager, he always gets the best out of troubled playes like diouf, anelka etc... and always gets a few oldies and gets another 2-3 seasons out of them. should have got the england job imo as mclaren is shite, middlesboro played shit boring defensive football last season under him.
martin oneil is another one who is a great manager, great man to man management.
and stuart pearce is gonna be a great manager of the future, hopefully after the euro's next year when we do shit mclaren will walk and psycho will take over
29-01-2007, 12:30 PM
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Agree with Dan and Mike Newell. Although recently i have been very suspect with some of his decisions.
Not sure how anyone can say managers with xxxx millions to spend can be good managers. Half of them rely on scouts to tell them what players to sign anyway.
Not sure how anyone can say managers with xxxx millions to spend can be good managers. Half of them rely on scouts to tell them what players to sign anyway.
30-01-2007, 03:22 AM
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Originally Posted by jumpin jack crash
Originally Posted by skeg
Leeds Uniteds trouble was they got big in terms of squad and cash/performances and did too much too soon. Viduka, Rio Ferdinand, Paul Robinson, Alan Smith, Bowyer, Woodgate, Kewell etc. Then spent more on the basis of champions league football.
the players like kewell and smith were probably on the lowest wages as they came through the academy and would have been tied down to long contracts from then.
I know thats what i was saying mate. They had a great squad and players who have gone on to better things with other clubs but spent too much on the basis that their sucess would continue. IE reahcing the semis of the Champions league etc. They should of banked it and try to maintain for a while. Then build again. Not try to take over United and Real in a season or two.
30-01-2007, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by skeg
Originally Posted by jumpin jack crash
Originally Posted by skeg
Leeds Uniteds trouble was they got big in terms of squad and cash/performances and did too much too soon. Viduka, Rio Ferdinand, Paul Robinson, Alan Smith, Bowyer, Woodgate, Kewell etc. Then spent more on the basis of champions league football.
the players like kewell and smith were probably on the lowest wages as they came through the academy and would have been tied down to long contracts from then.
I know thats what i was saying mate. They had a great squad and players who have gone on to better things with other clubs but spent too much on the basis that their sucess would continue. IE reahcing the semis of the Champions league etc. They should of banked it and try to maintain for a while. Then build again. Not try to take over United and Real in a season or two.
30-01-2007, 08:25 AM
#17
............
The best managers IMO are the ones who bring kids through consistently and turn them into world class players, and those who can handle temperermental players and get the best out of them.
ONLY Fergie and Wenger have this talent consistently as far as I can see, O Neil might have it but yet to be proven
Of the wheeler dealers, Harry Redknapp is king followed by Big Sam
You cant belittle what Harry achieved at West ham, a consistent top ten side apart from at the end and he had some shite players.
Mourihno is quality, but he's had no pressure till now at Chelsea, signed who he likes, bought no kids through and been spoiled. Now things are getting tough he doesnt like it. I hope he see's it through and shows us how good he is cause I like him, but he cant rank alongside Fergie and Wenger for a long time yet
ONLY Fergie and Wenger have this talent consistently as far as I can see, O Neil might have it but yet to be proven
Of the wheeler dealers, Harry Redknapp is king followed by Big Sam
You cant belittle what Harry achieved at West ham, a consistent top ten side apart from at the end and he had some shite players.
Mourihno is quality, but he's had no pressure till now at Chelsea, signed who he likes, bought no kids through and been spoiled. Now things are getting tough he doesnt like it. I hope he see's it through and shows us how good he is cause I like him, but he cant rank alongside Fergie and Wenger for a long time yet
30-01-2007, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by MattRS1600i
The best managers IMO are the ones who bring kids through consistently and turn them into world class players, and those who can handle temperermental players and get the best out of them.
ONLY Fergie and Wenger have this talent consistently as far as I can see, O Neil might have it but yet to be proven
ONLY Fergie and Wenger have this talent consistently as far as I can see, O Neil might have it but yet to be proven
30-01-2007, 12:23 PM
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So your saying Fergie and Wenger are good mangers because they bring youth team players through?
Its not hard when you have scouts watching the championship, league 1 and league 2 teams and then steal their youngsters. Money talks in football.
Wage caps of Ł10k a week, caps on transfer fee's and then see who the good managers are.
Its not hard when you have scouts watching the championship, league 1 and league 2 teams and then steal their youngsters. Money talks in football.
Wage caps of Ł10k a week, caps on transfer fee's and then see who the good managers are.
31-01-2007, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan FRST
So your saying Fergie and Wenger are good mangers because they bring youth team players through?
Its not hard when you have scouts watching the championship, league 1 and league 2 teams and then steal their youngsters. Money talks in football.
Wage caps of Ł10k a week, caps on transfer fee's and then see who the good managers are.
Its not hard when you have scouts watching the championship, league 1 and league 2 teams and then steal their youngsters. Money talks in football.
Wage caps of Ł10k a week, caps on transfer fee's and then see who the good managers are.
31-01-2007, 08:57 PM
#22
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Sam Allardyce - Not the best football played by Bolton but getting results from a team made up of misfits, rejects and old timers.
Pearce - Being a City fan, and seeing City play with the players he has brought in doesnt inspire me.
John Sheridan - Doing wonders at Oldham, and got them playing some belting football at the moment.
Dario Gradi - His CV of players who have come from him says enough.
Iain Dowie - IMO 1 of the better 'younger' managers around.
Pearce - Being a City fan, and seeing City play with the players he has brought in doesnt inspire me.
John Sheridan - Doing wonders at Oldham, and got them playing some belting football at the moment.
Dario Gradi - His CV of players who have come from him says enough.
Iain Dowie - IMO 1 of the better 'younger' managers around.
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