Fuel pumps and failures...
15-12-2006, 08:22 AM
#1
Fuel pumps and failures...
ok, if your running twin pumps and one fails, and your going pretty quick - its gonna make the engine run lean and melt right?
IF your running a single pump, and that then fails, so there is NO fuel at all going into the engine, will it still melt?
as in, there will be no fuel, so yes there will be loads of air going in, but no fuel to burn and run lean?
is that right?
thats assuming that when a pump fails, it just stop dead straight away, not tails off the pressure thus running lean?
its early
IF your running a single pump, and that then fails, so there is NO fuel at all going into the engine, will it still melt?
as in, there will be no fuel, so yes there will be loads of air going in, but no fuel to burn and run lean?
is that right?
thats assuming that when a pump fails, it just stop dead straight away, not tails off the pressure thus running lean?
its early
15-12-2006, 08:29 AM
#2
If you know your car, you should be able to feel this.
When I had my Sapphire, one of the wires to the fuel pumps broke. Running at slow speed, I didn't notice ANY difference, but as soon as it came on boost, I could feel it wasn't "right" and immediately identified it as a fuel pump or blocked filter (as it felt like it was holding back).
Obviously, it helps to know how the car feels and works to be able to identify this.
However, it wouldn't be an issue for someone who was good with electrics to rig up some lights that were in the dash that came on if a pump was to fail (this is what I was planning on doing, but never got round to it).
When I had my Sapphire, one of the wires to the fuel pumps broke. Running at slow speed, I didn't notice ANY difference, but as soon as it came on boost, I could feel it wasn't "right" and immediately identified it as a fuel pump or blocked filter (as it felt like it was holding back).
Obviously, it helps to know how the car feels and works to be able to identify this.
However, it wouldn't be an issue for someone who was good with electrics to rig up some lights that were in the dash that came on if a pump was to fail (this is what I was planning on doing, but never got round to it).
15-12-2006, 08:39 AM
#3
sounds like a plan mike
BUT what i want to know is, say your doing about a ton (or boost or whatever) and it fails, will it lean the engine to fook and melt it, or will it just simply cut out and roll to a stop and be ok?
do they just fail like that or gradually loose pressure?
the setup i wil run will be a std cossy pump from tank to swirl pot, then an 044 from swirl pot to engine.
ill only be running about a max of 400bhp so this should be fine.
BUT what i want to know is, say your doing about a ton (or boost or whatever) and it fails, will it lean the engine to fook and melt it, or will it just simply cut out and roll to a stop and be ok?
do they just fail like that or gradually loose pressure?
the setup i wil run will be a std cossy pump from tank to swirl pot, then an 044 from swirl pot to engine.
ill only be running about a max of 400bhp so this should be fine.
15-12-2006, 08:48 AM
#6
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if the pump stops dead then yes, but its more than likely that it will get lazy over time and the pressure will gradually drop off, add this with a damaged fuel line, slightly blocked fuel filter, a crudy connection fot he pump wiring and with the right mixture of slightly off components can lead to conditions for maximum smoke.
as mike says, really you need a fuel presure gauge with some sort of alarm rigged up, so that it tells you when something is not ight with the fuelling.
as mike says, really you need a fuel presure gauge with some sort of alarm rigged up, so that it tells you when something is not ight with the fuelling.
15-12-2006, 08:50 AM
#7
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Originally Posted by Eagle
could you not install a presure switch to turn on a light if the pressure dropped below a certain level?
or is there a way of putting the ecu into a low boost setting that is safe?
or is there a way of putting the ecu into a low boost setting that is safe?
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15-12-2006, 08:51 AM
#8
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Dan, sounds like your pumps are connected "in series" (in line), so ONE pump failing will cut fuel supply to the injectors. It would be like running out of petrol so your engine would not suffer any damage.
The problem would be much worse when twin pumps are fitted in parallel (as seen on many modified big power 8 injector cars), where one pump supplies each fuel rail...........If one pump fails, and if this happens ON BOOST - then unless you are very lucky it will lean off straight away - major meltage is a distinct possibility within seconds.
The problem would be much worse when twin pumps are fitted in parallel (as seen on many modified big power 8 injector cars), where one pump supplies each fuel rail...........If one pump fails, and if this happens ON BOOST - then unless you are very lucky it will lean off straight away - major meltage is a distinct possibility within seconds.
15-12-2006, 08:55 AM
#9
Originally Posted by fudgeass
sounds like a plan mike
BUT what i want to know is, say your doing about a ton (or boost or whatever) and it fails, will it lean the engine to fook and melt it, or will it just simply cut out and roll to a stop and be ok?
do they just fail like that or gradually loose pressure?
the setup i wil run will be a std cossy pump from tank to swirl pot, then an 044 from swirl pot to engine.
ill only be running about a max of 400bhp so this should be fine.
BUT what i want to know is, say your doing about a ton (or boost or whatever) and it fails, will it lean the engine to fook and melt it, or will it just simply cut out and roll to a stop and be ok?
do they just fail like that or gradually loose pressure?
the setup i wil run will be a std cossy pump from tank to swirl pot, then an 044 from swirl pot to engine.
ill only be running about a max of 400bhp so this should be fine.
A top speed run would see the engine melt, an off boost high speed cruising at 100mph would see you just stop (had this happen when fuel hose popped off
).However, please explain why you are using two pumps in your scenario, instead of just the 044 item?
15-12-2006, 08:57 AM
#10
thats the sort answer i wanted Doug - cheers
as for my pumps, i dont have any yet
but when the time comes they will be all wired with brand new wiring, brand new pumps
i would have thought tho that it would be best to wire them seperatly with 2 switches, fuses, relays etc
unless you mean the actual 'plumbing in' of the pumps, where yes, they would be in series if you like
as for my pumps, i dont have any yet
but when the time comes they will be all wired with brand new wiring, brand new pumps
i would have thought tho that it would be best to wire them seperatly with 2 switches, fuses, relays etc
unless you mean the actual 'plumbing in' of the pumps, where yes, they would be in series if you like
15-12-2006, 09:00 AM
#12
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Originally Posted by fudgeass
sounds like a plan mike
BUT what i want to know is, say your doing about a ton (or boost or whatever) and it fails, will it lean the engine to fook and melt it, or will it just simply cut out and roll to a stop and be ok?
do they just fail like that or gradually loose pressure?
the setup i wil run will be a std cossy pump from tank to swirl pot, then an 044 from swirl pot to engine.
ill only be running about a max of 400bhp so this should be fine.
BUT what i want to know is, say your doing about a ton (or boost or whatever) and it fails, will it lean the engine to fook and melt it, or will it just simply cut out and roll to a stop and be ok?
do they just fail like that or gradually loose pressure?
the setup i wil run will be a std cossy pump from tank to swirl pot, then an 044 from swirl pot to engine.
ill only be running about a max of 400bhp so this should be fine.
A top speed run would see the engine melt, an off boost high speed cruising at 100mph would see you just stop (had this happen when fuel hose popped off
).However, please explain why you are using two pumps in your scenario, instead of just the 044 item?
reasons i want this setup is, i will be using a pro alloy fuel cell in the boot, these are not baffled (i dont think) so would like to use a swirl pot to make sure there is no surging issues.
so one lift pump, and one high pressure pump.
15-12-2006, 09:02 AM
#14
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why are you going to fit 2 though, what power are you going for?
surely 1 would be better, then its a single point of failure - if it fails, you stop - rather than leaning off?
or do you mean, run 2: one is a lift pump into a swirl pot which is then picked up by another pump to feed the the high pressure to the rail?
surely 1 would be better, then its a single point of failure - if it fails, you stop - rather than leaning off?
or do you mean, run 2: one is a lift pump into a swirl pot which is then picked up by another pump to feed the the high pressure to the rail?
15-12-2006, 09:05 AM
#16
Originally Posted by fudgeass
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Originally Posted by fudgeass
sounds like a plan mike
BUT what i want to know is, say your doing about a ton (or boost or whatever) and it fails, will it lean the engine to fook and melt it, or will it just simply cut out and roll to a stop and be ok?
do they just fail like that or gradually loose pressure?
the setup i wil run will be a std cossy pump from tank to swirl pot, then an 044 from swirl pot to engine.
ill only be running about a max of 400bhp so this should be fine.
BUT what i want to know is, say your doing about a ton (or boost or whatever) and it fails, will it lean the engine to fook and melt it, or will it just simply cut out and roll to a stop and be ok?
do they just fail like that or gradually loose pressure?
the setup i wil run will be a std cossy pump from tank to swirl pot, then an 044 from swirl pot to engine.
ill only be running about a max of 400bhp so this should be fine.
A top speed run would see the engine melt, an off boost high speed cruising at 100mph would see you just stop (had this happen when fuel hose popped off
).However, please explain why you are using two pumps in your scenario, instead of just the 044 item?
reasons i want this setup is, i will be using a pro alloy fuel cell in the boot, these are not baffled (i dont think) so would like to use a swirl pot to make sure there is no surging issues.
so one lift pump, and one high pressure pump.
(but that would happen with one or two pumps 
).So you're putting in a STANDARD Escort Cosworth lift pump to feed an 044 pump for 400bhp
? Say bye to the engine (unless you have a huge swirl-pot and don't ever run it flat out) .I thought the Pro-alloy tank was GRAVITY fed and foam filled (baffled)
? So should be capable of supporting just the 044 pump?
15-12-2006, 09:08 AM
#17
i meant 2wd saph external pump. fuck knows where you got esc cos from lol :P
so does the foam act like a baffle too then? i though it just stopped the thing exploding when you bin it
aiming for about 400bhp as thats the max of my T35 turbo, but with ALS lol
so does the foam act like a baffle too then? i though it just stopped the thing exploding when you bin it
aiming for about 400bhp as thats the max of my T35 turbo, but with ALS lol
15-12-2006, 09:09 AM
#18
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surely if the lift pump were to fail then the swil pot would just run out of petrol (regardless of the return from the fuel rail) and the car would behave like it had run out of petrol.
15-12-2006, 09:12 AM
#19
Originally Posted by fudgeass
i meant 2wd saph external pump. fuck knows where you got esc cos from lol :P
A lift pump is an in-tank pump, the only cars that run these are the Escorts. You also said it would be a STANDARD pump, the standard Escort LIFT pump is only good for STAGE 1 power
. Do you know ANYTHING?
15-12-2006, 09:26 AM
#21
Originally Posted by fudgeass
well when i say lift pump, i mean the external saph cossy pump to 'lift' the fuel from the tank, to the swirl pot!
and an esc cossy pump is an IN TANK pump, so sod off
i know what im on about!
and an esc cossy pump is an IN TANK pump, so sod off
i know what im on about!
A LIFT pump, IS an IN-TANK pump .You only need an 044 pump (or even a brand new standard Sierra one) for your application
.
15-12-2006, 09:36 AM
#23
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Interesting to read this as this is exactly what happened to me, filled up with V Power, pulled out the petrol station, gave her a bit of welly and all of a sudden i got a massive jolt, off boost it seemed ok but on boost it felt horrible, so i limped it back home and heard the pump whining away so switched it off and have just fitted a new pump and all is sweet with my car, no engine problems at all
15-12-2006, 09:38 AM
#25
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well when i say lift pump, i mean the external saph cossy pump to 'lift' the fuel from the tank, to the swirl pot!
15-12-2006, 09:39 AM
#26
is a std cossie fairly high pressure then?
as im sure you can guess, i got a lot to learn lol
i dont know, hence me asking lol
so what low pressure pump would be good to use as feed for the swirl pot?
but then if the pro alloy tanks dont need a swirl pot then i might just need the 044?
ooooooh i dunno
as im sure you can guess, i got a lot to learn lol
i dont know, hence me asking lol
so what low pressure pump would be good to use as feed for the swirl pot?
but then if the pro alloy tanks dont need a swirl pot then i might just need the 044?
ooooooh i dunno
15-12-2006, 11:16 AM
#30
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Personally I'd use a slightly bigger swirl pot and not return the rail to the swirl pot as you can introduce too much heat into the small ammount of fuel in the pot causing problems. I'd run an overflow from the pot to the tank, and a seperate return from the rail to the tank.
15-12-2006, 06:08 PM
#31
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If the tank is foam filled you don't need a swirl pot so just fit the 044 and you'll be ok.
& yes a saph pump is high pressure.
If you use one of these to fill your swirl pot you'll be fucked very quickly as one of these on full chat un-regulated will empty a tank in minutes.
& yes a saph pump is high pressure.
If you use one of these to fill your swirl pot you'll be fucked very quickly as one of these on full chat un-regulated will empty a tank in minutes.
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