about cosworth ex manifold ...from other topic
16-12-2006, 04:27 PM
#121
Originally Posted by Bosch-Man
...the 2wd manifold is a flaw past 550bhp where you are having to push more boost than you should compromising reliability.
..the t4 turbo in grp a trim is capable of 540bhp on sul a std t4 around 500bhp reliably!
..the t4 turbo in grp a trim is capable of 540bhp on sul a std t4 around 500bhp reliably!
....the manifold is expelling gasses right....Not boost!Would it not then follow that the effectiveness of the manifold is measured in Back Preassure vs power?
Therefore if BP is reduced then efficiency increases?
16-12-2006, 04:28 PM
#122
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Originally Posted by Andy_R
Originally Posted by Bosch-Man
...the 2wd manifold is a flaw past 550bhp where you are having to push more boost than you should compromising reliability.
..the t4 turbo in grp a trim is capable of 540bhp on sul a std t4 around 500bhp reliably!
..the t4 turbo in grp a trim is capable of 540bhp on sul a std t4 around 500bhp reliably!
....the manifold is expelling gasses right....Not boost!Would it not then follow that the effectiveness of the manifold is measured in Back Preassure vs power?
Therefore if BP is reduced then efficiency increases?
thats the idea behind my exhaust
16-12-2006, 04:34 PM
#123
...andy your having to up the boost to get the power due to the ineffcient manifold...yes by upping the exhaust diameter a bit would help this....but the majority cant see past there mongoose. ...as i noted euan has done this and upped his power but its still taking 2.5bar from a t4,put a tubular on and see that same power at 2.1bar 
...as i noted euan has done this and upped his power but its still taking 2.5bar from a t4,put a tubular on and see that same power at 2.1bar
16-12-2006, 05:01 PM
#125
euan we are talking realitys here whereas you are developing a whole new exhaust by the sounds when you should just change the manifold and save the aggro 
..i understand the mongoose did 630bhp with a tubular
..i understand the mongoose did 630bhp with a tubular
16-12-2006, 06:16 PM
#128
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
Originally Posted by rapidcossie
Originally Posted by streetracersgd
Originally Posted by Bosch-Man
...ok ok...look...the 2wd manifold is only effcient to around 550bhp as i keep saying...why would you want to go over this as you are having to use more boost to acheive the goal....now more boost is surely more strain on componants especially head gaskets..not to mention more heat..so yes using a 2wd manifold past 550bhp is stupid 
So if you spec an engine over this then the engine is flawed and as the geezer above says you spend all this cash on a big power motor and leave a stock manifold on
My own car would need 2.5bar boost from my GT35 to reach 570-580bhp
...put the tubular manifold on and your now seeing less boost to acheive that bhp and less strain....personally i wont run above 2bar so i am not over the safe threshold of the manifold.
So if you spec an engine over this then the engine is flawed and as the geezer above says you spend all this cash on a big power motor and leave a stock manifold on
My own car would need 2.5bar boost from my GT35 to reach 570-580bhp
...put the tubular manifold on and your now seeing less boost to acheive that bhp and less strain....personally i wont run above 2bar so i am not over the safe threshold of the manifold. mad enough for my car to come off a trailer, do 5 runs down a run way running 2.5 bar, do a very impreressive top speed for my power and go back on the trailer without even checking the oil
im a nutter
if you have tested back pressure and EGT and find no problems then why change the manifold??? oh wait...cos someone on passionford says so
as i said before i did not say they are crap just way use one when want as much power as poss you have changed parts on your car to get more power so why not the manifold
17-12-2006, 02:40 PM
#129
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Originally Posted by Bosch-Man
euan we are talking realitys here whereas you are developing a whole new exhaust by the sounds when you should just change the manifold and save the aggro ..i understand the mongoose did 630bhp with a tubular
..i understand the mongoose did 630bhp with a tubular i had a different exhaust fitted because the person who tunes my car knows the biggest restiction on big power cars is the exhaust..
i saw th test results on back pressure before and after and they proove the exhaust defo works.
I know that i would benifet from a tubular manifold but im not prepared to pay a grand for one..
17-12-2006, 03:47 PM
#131
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Originally Posted by streetracersgd
Originally Posted by GARETH T
Originally Posted by streetracersgd
you must be lead by price then
as we have just tested the peter G manifold and VERY happy with what we found compaired to the old 2wd manifold
as we have just tested the peter G manifold and VERY happy with what we found compaired to the old 2wd manifold
17-12-2006, 03:49 PM
#132
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i gained various abouts of bhp at different rev points...
as much as 50bhp at certian points.
changed a few other things on the power curve too.
exhaust was a grand
as much as 50bhp at certian points.
changed a few other things on the power curve too.
exhaust was a grand
17-12-2006, 04:22 PM
#133
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
Originally Posted by rapidcossie
i gained various abouts of bhp at different rev points...
as much as 50bhp at certian points.
changed a few other things on the power curve too.
exhaust was a grand
as much as 50bhp at certian points.
changed a few other things on the power curve too.
exhaust was a grand
18-12-2006, 09:47 AM
#135
streetracersgd
Just out of curiousity, when you tested the 2wd manifold back to back, did you use an identical turbo as well?
Could you please go into detail on how you carried out this test?
Rod,
FYI Lee's 177mph is limited bu his 3.9 gearing
, NOT his manifold design - I thought you of all people would understand this . Obviously wearing your blinkers still .
Phil,
Mmmmmm, well on an engine dyno (the same way others measure their engines), Lee's car made 605bhp @ 32psi (2.2bar) using a GT35 - some way off your 2.5 bar that you quote is required to get 600bhp out of a 2wd manifold . Unless of course you're hinting that Reyland engines are more efficient than your own, as you state that yours would only make 560-570 at 2.5 bar !
Lee's was also on NORMAL 98RON super unleaded and not the 99RON now available (that has helped Euan ).
Just out of curiousity, when you tested the 2wd manifold back to back, did you use an identical turbo as well?
Could you please go into detail on how you carried out this test?
Rod,
FYI Lee's 177mph is limited bu his 3.9 gearing
, NOT his manifold design - I thought you of all people would understand this . Obviously wearing your blinkers still .Phil,
Mmmmmm, well on an engine dyno (the same way others measure their engines), Lee's car made 605bhp @ 32psi (2.2bar) using a GT35 - some way off your 2.5 bar that you quote is required to get 600bhp out of a 2wd manifold
. Unless of course you're hinting that Reyland engines are more efficient than your own, as you state that yours would only make 560-570 at 2.5 bar ! Lee's was also on NORMAL 98RON super unleaded and not the 99RON now available (that has helped Euan
).
18-12-2006, 10:14 AM
#138
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Originally Posted by CossieRich
Originally Posted by NUTTIN RILLA
Rich off topic , im just looking at your sig, what kind of power does your car make mate
It is arse dyno yes, going by the speed we can reach on Marks test route compared to a dyno'd 400 bhp cossie
18-12-2006, 03:00 PM
#139
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We're going tubular (the one pictured in white on the last manifold thread) with external wastegate. This should help the GT35 to spool up quicker, and hopefully give us a few more horses, so may not go the nitrous route after all
18-12-2006, 03:20 PM
#140
Originally Posted by MAD Ade
We're going tubular (the one pictured in white on the last manifold thread) with external wastegate. This should help the GT35 to spool up quicker, and hopefully give us a few more horses, so may not go the nitrous route after all
18-12-2006, 03:59 PM
#141
Originally Posted by MAD Ade
We're going tubular (the one pictured in white on the last manifold thread) with external wastegate. This should help the GT35 to spool up quicker, and hopefully give us a few more horses, so may not go the nitrous route after all
You going to Marks this w/e Ade?
18-12-2006, 04:37 PM
#142
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Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Originally Posted by MAD Ade
We're going tubular (the one pictured in white on the last manifold thread) with external wastegate. This should help the GT35 to spool up quicker, and hopefully give us a few more horses, so may not go the nitrous route after all
As further investigation found there was a hairline crack in no 3 bore which did not show up on dyno or low boost(1.4 bar) in car but only at brunters on full boost (2.2 bar).
new engine will be dyno'd end of week (hopefully) and will be using a 2wd manifold
18-12-2006, 04:40 PM
#143
Originally Posted by kaliber cossie
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Originally Posted by MAD Ade
We're going tubular (the one pictured in white on the last manifold thread) with external wastegate. This should help the GT35 to spool up quicker, and hopefully give us a few more horses, so may not go the nitrous route after all
As further investigation found there was a hairline crack in no 3 bore which did not show up on dyno or low boost(1.4 bar) in car but only at brunters on full boost (2.2 bar).
new engine will be dyno'd end of week (hopefully) and will be using a 2wd manifold
18-12-2006, 06:11 PM
#144
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Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
streetracersgd
Just out of curiousity, when you tested the 2wd manifold back to back, did you use an identical turbo as well?
Could you please go into detail on how you carried out this test?
Rod,
FYI Lee's 177mph is limited bu his 3.9 gearing, NOT his manifold design - I thought you of all people would understand this . Obviously wearing your blinkers still .
Phil,
Mmmmmm, well on an engine dyno (the same way others measure their engines), Lee's car made 605bhp @ 32psi (2.2bar) using a GT35 - some way off your 2.5 bar that you quote is required to get 600bhp out of a 2wd manifold . Unless of course you're hinting that Reyland engines are more efficient than your own, as you state that yours would only make 560-570 at 2.5 bar !
Lee's was also on NORMAL 98RON super unleaded and not the 99RON now available (that has helped Euan ).
Just out of curiousity, when you tested the 2wd manifold back to back, did you use an identical turbo as well?
Could you please go into detail on how you carried out this test?
Rod,
FYI Lee's 177mph is limited bu his 3.9 gearing
, NOT his manifold design - I thought you of all people would understand this . Obviously wearing your blinkers still .Phil,
Mmmmmm, well on an engine dyno (the same way others measure their engines), Lee's car made 605bhp @ 32psi (2.2bar) using a GT35 - some way off your 2.5 bar that you quote is required to get 600bhp out of a 2wd manifold
. Unless of course you're hinting that Reyland engines are more efficient than your own, as you state that yours would only make 560-570 at 2.5 bar ! Lee's was also on NORMAL 98RON super unleaded and not the 99RON now available (that has helped Euan
).is that 99 ron?
18-12-2006, 06:13 PM
#145
Originally Posted by rapidcossie
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
streetracersgd
Just out of curiousity, when you tested the 2wd manifold back to back, did you use an identical turbo as well?
Could you please go into detail on how you carried out this test?
Rod,
FYI Lee's 177mph is limited bu his 3.9 gearing, NOT his manifold design - I thought you of all people would understand this . Obviously wearing your blinkers still .
Phil,
Mmmmmm, well on an engine dyno (the same way others measure their engines), Lee's car made 605bhp @ 32psi (2.2bar) using a GT35 - some way off your 2.5 bar that you quote is required to get 600bhp out of a 2wd manifold . Unless of course you're hinting that Reyland engines are more efficient than your own, as you state that yours would only make 560-570 at 2.5 bar !
Lee's was also on NORMAL 98RON super unleaded and not the 99RON now available (that has helped Euan ).
Just out of curiousity, when you tested the 2wd manifold back to back, did you use an identical turbo as well?
Could you please go into detail on how you carried out this test?
Rod,
FYI Lee's 177mph is limited bu his 3.9 gearing
, NOT his manifold design - I thought you of all people would understand this . Obviously wearing your blinkers still .Phil,
Mmmmmm, well on an engine dyno (the same way others measure their engines), Lee's car made 605bhp @ 32psi (2.2bar) using a GT35 - some way off your 2.5 bar that you quote is required to get 600bhp out of a 2wd manifold
. Unless of course you're hinting that Reyland engines are more efficient than your own, as you state that yours would only make 560-570 at 2.5 bar ! Lee's was also on NORMAL 98RON super unleaded and not the 99RON now available (that has helped Euan
).is that 99 ron?
18-12-2006, 06:16 PM
#146
10K+ Poster!!
my car is a road car Rich..and always runs vpower so thats how we kept it.
it also made a fair comparison to other T4 cars that had ran on previous dates/years.
we had our allowed 102 ron ultimate but we onyl filled the car with that after the runs
it also made a fair comparison to other T4 cars that had ran on previous dates/years.
we had our allowed 102 ron ultimate but we onyl filled the car with that after the runs
18-12-2006, 07:09 PM
#147
Originally Posted by rapidcossie
my car is a road car Rich..and always runs vpower so thats how we kept it.
it also made a fair comparison to other T4 cars that had ran on previous dates/years.
we had our allowed 102 ron ultimate but we onyl filled the car with that after the runs
it also made a fair comparison to other T4 cars that had ran on previous dates/years.
we had our allowed 102 ron ultimate but we onyl filled the car with that after the runs
18-12-2006, 07:19 PM
#148
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
streetracersgd
Just out of curiousity, when you tested the 2wd manifold back to back, did you use an identical turbo as well?
Could you please go into detail on how you carried out this test?
.
Just out of curiousity, when you tested the 2wd manifold back to back, did you use an identical turbo as well?
Could you please go into detail on how you carried out this test?
.
not had time to take the graphs of my dyno yet tho
18-12-2006, 07:24 PM
#149
Originally Posted by kaliber cossie
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Originally Posted by MAD Ade
We're going tubular (the one pictured in white on the last manifold thread) with external wastegate. This should help the GT35 to spool up quicker, and hopefully give us a few more horses, so may not go the nitrous route after all
18-12-2006, 08:19 PM
#150
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Originally Posted by martin-reyland
Originally Posted by kaliber cossie
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Originally Posted by MAD Ade
We're going tubular (the one pictured in white on the last manifold thread) with external wastegate. This should help the GT35 to spool up quicker, and hopefully give us a few more horses, so may not go the nitrous route after all
it wasn,t until simon come to start building the engine back up in july that the block was xray'd and showed a defect, so another 200 block had tobe sourced and 10 studded again,
on another note martin what waterpump do u run with 10 studs?
18-12-2006, 08:24 PM
#151
Originally Posted by kaliber cossie
Originally Posted by martin-reyland
Originally Posted by kaliber cossie
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Originally Posted by MAD Ade
We're going tubular (the one pictured in white on the last manifold thread) with external wastegate. This should help the GT35 to spool up quicker, and hopefully give us a few more horses, so may not go the nitrous route after all
I use a 2wd water pump.
ASSUMED!? why was egt's (per cyl) and back pressure not measured on the dyno?
it wasn,t until simon come to start building the engine back up in july that the block was xray'd and showed a defect, so another 200 block had tobe sourced and 10 studded again,
on another note martin what waterpump do u run with 10 studs?
18-12-2006, 08:41 PM
#152
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Originally Posted by martin-reyland
Originally Posted by kaliber cossie
Originally Posted by martin-reyland
Originally Posted by kaliber cossie
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Originally Posted by MAD Ade
We're going tubular (the one pictured in white on the last manifold thread) with external wastegate. This should help the GT35 to spool up quicker, and hopefully give us a few more horses, so may not go the nitrous route after all
So you did monitor individual egt's and back pressure on the dyno? If that's the case then the plan should have been to do this in the car too! We did both on my engine!
I use a 2wd water pump.
ASSUMED!? why was egt's (per cyl) and back pressure not measured on the dyno?
it wasn,t until simon come to start building the engine back up in july that the block was xray'd and showed a defect, so another 200 block had tobe sourced and 10 studded again,
on another note martin what waterpump do u run with 10 studs?
18-12-2006, 08:43 PM
#153
10K+ Poster!!
Originally Posted by CossieRich
Originally Posted by rapidcossie
my car is a road car Rich..and always runs vpower so thats how we kept it.
it also made a fair comparison to other T4 cars that had ran on previous dates/years.
we had our allowed 102 ron ultimate but we onyl filled the car with that after the runs
it also made a fair comparison to other T4 cars that had ran on previous dates/years.
we had our allowed 102 ron ultimate but we onyl filled the car with that after the runs
only thing that could be improved was the charge temps, which are being addressed as we speak
18-12-2006, 09:49 PM
#154
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Ok, im back.
1. So first of all, where do you measure backpressure?(all who measures, answer)
2. A manifold SELDOM cause backpressure.
3. Turbos cause backpressure by having too small turbineshafts/too high rev on the shaft causing gasses to push to the outer wall of the turbinehousing by the G-force of the mass and not able to evacuate. The faster it flows around the turbine house outer perifery the harder it is to evacuate and forms a clog. By using a larger turbinehousing(as manytimes done when problem not understood) you can make the problem a little less due to the slower flow in the larger diam of the housing, but still there will be BP due to the smaller outlet/shaft. The problem gets solved by a slightly larger diam turbineshaft. It will flow more and reduce the mass of gasses rotating in the housing. Also important is the shape of the inside of the housing on how it will empty itself. There are formulas for calculating how much a certain diam turbine will flow, but it only says how much the outlethole and shaft will flow, and does not take any notice on housing design.
4. Exhausts can also make BP, aim always on using as large as possible on a turboengine, it can be too small, but never too large!
5. RS500 eggenbergers used 2wd manifolds?? 550bhp? 24h Lemans.. Headgasket blew.. engine did not.. I cant in my wildest dreams think that a 2wd manifold is restrictive at 550bhp. But it has in my opinion other flaws that could not be taken as an advantage in the 80s(TURBO FLAWS).
Diving for cover..
1. So first of all, where do you measure backpressure?(all who measures, answer)
2. A manifold SELDOM cause backpressure.
3. Turbos cause backpressure by having too small turbineshafts/too high rev on the shaft causing gasses to push to the outer wall of the turbinehousing by the G-force of the mass and not able to evacuate. The faster it flows around the turbine house outer perifery the harder it is to evacuate and forms a clog. By using a larger turbinehousing(as manytimes done when problem not understood) you can make the problem a little less due to the slower flow in the larger diam of the housing, but still there will be BP due to the smaller outlet/shaft. The problem gets solved by a slightly larger diam turbineshaft. It will flow more and reduce the mass of gasses rotating in the housing. Also important is the shape of the inside of the housing on how it will empty itself. There are formulas for calculating how much a certain diam turbine will flow, but it only says how much the outlethole and shaft will flow, and does not take any notice on housing design.
4. Exhausts can also make BP, aim always on using as large as possible on a turboengine, it can be too small, but never too large!
5. RS500 eggenbergers used 2wd manifolds?? 550bhp? 24h Lemans.. Headgasket blew.. engine did not.. I cant in my wildest dreams think that a 2wd manifold is restrictive at 550bhp. But it has in my opinion other flaws that could not be taken as an advantage in the 80s(TURBO FLAWS).
Diving for cover..
18-12-2006, 09:54 PM
#155
10K+ Poster!!
Originally Posted by msport
Ok, im back.
1. So first of all, where do you measure backpressure?(all who measures, answer)
2. A manifold SELDOM cause backpressure.
3. Turbos cause backpressure by having too small turbineshafts/too high rev on the shaft causing gasses to push to the outer wall of the turbinehousing by the G-force of the mass and not able to evacuate. The faster it flows around the turbine house outer perifery the harder it is to evacuate and forms a clog. By using a larger turbinehousing(as manytimes done when problem not understood) you can make the problem a little less due to the slower flow in the larger diam of the housing, but still there will be BP due to the smaller outlet/shaft. The problem gets solved by a slightly larger diam turbineshaft. It will flow more and reduce the mass of gasses rotating in the housing. Also important is the shape of the inside of the housing on how it will empty itself. There are formulas for calculating how much a certain diam turbine will flow, but it only says how much the outlethole and shaft will flow, and does not take any notice on housing design.
4. Exhausts can also make BP, aim always on using as large as possible on a turboengine, it can be too small, but never too large!
5. RS500 eggenbergers used 2wd manifolds?? 550bhp? 24h Lemans.. Headgasket blew.. engine did not.. I cant in my wildest dreams think that a 2wd manifold is restrictive at 550bhp. But it has in my opinion other flaws that could not be taken as an advantage in the 80s(TURBO FLAWS).
Diving for cover..
1. So first of all, where do you measure backpressure?(all who measures, answer)
2. A manifold SELDOM cause backpressure.
3. Turbos cause backpressure by having too small turbineshafts/too high rev on the shaft causing gasses to push to the outer wall of the turbinehousing by the G-force of the mass and not able to evacuate. The faster it flows around the turbine house outer perifery the harder it is to evacuate and forms a clog. By using a larger turbinehousing(as manytimes done when problem not understood) you can make the problem a little less due to the slower flow in the larger diam of the housing, but still there will be BP due to the smaller outlet/shaft. The problem gets solved by a slightly larger diam turbineshaft. It will flow more and reduce the mass of gasses rotating in the housing. Also important is the shape of the inside of the housing on how it will empty itself. There are formulas for calculating how much a certain diam turbine will flow, but it only says how much the outlethole and shaft will flow, and does not take any notice on housing design.
4. Exhausts can also make BP, aim always on using as large as possible on a turboengine, it can be too small, but never too large!
5. RS500 eggenbergers used 2wd manifolds?? 550bhp? 24h Lemans.. Headgasket blew.. engine did not.. I cant in my wildest dreams think that a 2wd manifold is restrictive at 550bhp. But it has in my opinion other flaws that could not be taken as an advantage in the 80s(TURBO FLAWS).
Diving for cover..
18-12-2006, 10:04 PM
#157
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Originally Posted by rapidcossie
the back pressure on my engine was measured in the exhaust housing or just after it i think..
If it is measured in the exh housing then you can impossible measure manifold BP since the gasflow has already left the manifold and entered the turbine.. The gasflow has to be restricted on something to be measured as pressure. Its like we need to measure the pressure in a gardenhose, we cant measure the pressure in the bucket we just filled up.
18-12-2006, 10:20 PM
#159
Originally Posted by msport
Ok, im back.
.. Headgasket blew.. engine did not.. I cant in my wildest dreams think that a 2wd manifold is restrictive at 550bhp. But it has in my opinion other flaws that could not be taken as an advantage in the 80s(TURBO FLAWS).
Diving for cover..
.. Headgasket blew.. engine did not.. I cant in my wildest dreams think that a 2wd manifold is restrictive at 550bhp. But it has in my opinion other flaws that could not be taken as an advantage in the 80s(TURBO FLAWS).
Diving for cover..
