Cosworth exhaust manifolds, hopefully a technical discussion
23-12-2006, 12:27 PM
#121
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Originally Posted by Mark_1
My own View of turbos is that we don´t have to invent the wheel once again.
They got real good numbers from old garrett´s in the Usa, GM has now Reached approx 1600hp with their global engine... turbo? well,, A Garrett..
They got real good numbers from old garrett´s in the Usa, GM has now Reached approx 1600hp with their global engine... turbo? well,, A Garrett..
I wouldn´t stop you at all.
but i think you know what i mean..
23-12-2006, 03:36 PM
#122
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Originally Posted by PatrickSwe
Hello,, PeterG is a close friend of mine.
This is my first post here, i have followed the discussion from the two corners here.
i just had to fill in,,
We are in two different 'camp's here in Sweden.
One 'team' is promoting this series of turbo´s:
http://www.turboservice.se/RaceTurbo.html
This is a kind of a 'underdog' turbo´s , might be fun to hit the bigdogs with this.
The other side of the campfire promotes Garrett and all of it´s different 2nd part manufacturer as Turbonetics/Innovative/Precision etc etc.
Well,, i just confess straight off here, Me and Peter is choosing 'garrett' because of it´s broad applictions.
This guy 'xxx' have chosen the other side as it seems, but what you guys in UK never see is that often,, VERY often you can read in different forums 'Used xxx turbo for sale, Only 250 swedish miles and fresh bearings and seals mounted, now only,,(very cheap price) '
They seem very hard to sell and overall they seem to have low mileage, but it may also be a sellers trick to try to get a descent buck for his turbo.
My own View of turbos is that we don´t have to invent the wheel once again.
They got real good numbers from old garrett´s in the Usa, GM has now Reached approx 1600hp with their global engine... turbo? well,, A Garrett..
I´ll rather pay xxx bucks on a thing i KNOW works than start experiment with theese 'perfect' turbos that produces no backpressure and so on....
but!!,, I have seen the other side of the coin.
Peter gave an example of an Nissan Engine that has blown twice..
Yes,, it was a pain in the ass to 'map' that engine from what i´ve seen in the shop who did it.
I have en another example,, an Celica GT4 ST 185 (carlos) they built after the same concept. they had BIG problems with ignition(couldn´t go over 12 degree and still very close to 'ping')
That turbo on the Celica was choosed by 'turboservice' to perform good on the application,,, in my eyes,, no good at all.
well,, in our little Garrettcamp here in Sweden keeps wondering.. how many drives around with this turboline in UK? (http://www.turboservice.se/RaceTurbo.html)
As i´ve seen there are mostly Garrett and offsprings of that that are mounted in your enginebays.
so..
Lets leave it at that. the other camp (who are outnumbered) chooses to go it´s own way.
And we in the garrett canp keep on winning races overall in the world as we speak,,
Who wan´t to join Garrett camp?
reach a hand..
This is my first post here, i have followed the discussion from the two corners here.
i just had to fill in,,
We are in two different 'camp's here in Sweden.
One 'team' is promoting this series of turbo´s:
http://www.turboservice.se/RaceTurbo.html
This is a kind of a 'underdog' turbo´s , might be fun to hit the bigdogs with this.
The other side of the campfire promotes Garrett and all of it´s different 2nd part manufacturer as Turbonetics/Innovative/Precision etc etc.
Well,, i just confess straight off here, Me and Peter is choosing 'garrett' because of it´s broad applictions.
This guy 'xxx' have chosen the other side as it seems, but what you guys in UK never see is that often,, VERY often you can read in different forums 'Used xxx turbo for sale, Only 250 swedish miles and fresh bearings and seals mounted, now only,,(very cheap price) '
They seem very hard to sell and overall they seem to have low mileage, but it may also be a sellers trick to try to get a descent buck for his turbo.
My own View of turbos is that we don´t have to invent the wheel once again.
They got real good numbers from old garrett´s in the Usa, GM has now Reached approx 1600hp with their global engine... turbo? well,, A Garrett..
I´ll rather pay xxx bucks on a thing i KNOW works than start experiment with theese 'perfect' turbos that produces no backpressure and so on....
but!!,, I have seen the other side of the coin.
Peter gave an example of an Nissan Engine that has blown twice..
Yes,, it was a pain in the ass to 'map' that engine from what i´ve seen in the shop who did it.
I have en another example,, an Celica GT4 ST 185 (carlos) they built after the same concept. they had BIG problems with ignition(couldn´t go over 12 degree and still very close to 'ping')
That turbo on the Celica was choosed by 'turboservice' to perform good on the application,,, in my eyes,, no good at all.
well,, in our little Garrettcamp here in Sweden keeps wondering.. how many drives around with this turboline in UK? (http://www.turboservice.se/RaceTurbo.html)
As i´ve seen there are mostly Garrett and offsprings of that that are mounted in your enginebays.
so..
Lets leave it at that. the other camp (who are outnumbered) chooses to go it´s own way.
And we in the garrett canp keep on winning races overall in the world as we speak,,
Who wan´t to join Garrett camp?
reach a hand..
Dear Mr PatrickSwe,
Are you somekind of garrett missionaire? LOL
First of all who is this Mr XXX you are talking about?
Those turbos you pulled up a list from turboservice is only a fraction of the "street"turbos. No competitionturbos even on that list. I have nothing against garrett as long as they work as they are supposed to. I myself use a garrett on my GrpA escos. By saying turboservice make bad turbos you say that IHI, KKK, Schwitzer, holset and others make bad equipment?? because those are the parts used! You say only these XXX turbos are for sale on the web, and cheap.. well i can see a bunch of garretts there also.. and the latest ones of them too. So i dont think you are correct there.
And again the nissan you 2 get whining about, what turbo was it running? and what intake? In many cases due to enginefailure it is because people like play engineer and build nice polished intakes that has major flow errors and distribution problems that make engines go BOOM, not manifolds as you like to make it sound. I cant say because i am not familiar with the case.
I can say that turboservice has delivered turbos to many top scandinavian rally/rallycross div1 drivers and they dont seem dissapointed as you. And guess who I thrust more?
How do you explain backpressure coming from a short and straight manifold??? Please, please give me an answer.. Nissan Skyline for ex uses very short ones.
Regards
Running around the campfire(not reaching hands, sounds gay)
23-12-2006, 05:03 PM
#123
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IHI Holset Schwitzer etc etc are all fine turbos,, as long as 'sts' doesn´t fiddle with ´em. (Me myself are actually in love with Schwitzer 'sg362')
They 'clip' the turbinewheels among other things, as it doesn´t seem too exist a proper turbinewheel for that specific setup.
Turbo in that Nissan car we keep whining about as nicely as you form it.
In that application it was an Precision turbo
E60 impeller (59mm inducer and 75mm exducer)
Stg III turbine in A/R 0.63
the second blow was cylinderwalls between 2nd and 3rd cylinder melted away..
But how about that Toyota with blown pistons and more?
I can give more examples.. two supras with problems.
All sts turbo´s.
that first nissan in this post i should say. that turbo didn´t come from sts.
But i have run one myself with approx 26cm runners.. worked fine for me with 2.1bar pressure.
But that was with VERY mild camshafts, tested more aggressive camshafts, wouldn´t work at all.
And i know someone talking about camshafts with at least 270 degree to use the correct pulse.
And how a short runner manifold can produce backpressure?... well.
Short runners are often(almost 100% in every case) equal as bad routing for the runners and unequal lenghts, the pulses start collide,, major disaster before it even has reached the turbine.
You might gain a little response/spool around 2500rpm´s.. but you loose a lot in upper rpm´s with chaos in exhaust manifold.(seen many examples)
the best application i´ve seen these short runners in are actually motorcycles that revs around 12000-14000rpm´s..
at those rpm´s the runnerlength´s are starting to get 'tuned' as the way 'we' do it.
The worst appication i´ve seen should be a EVO that had some major welds into the turbinehouse and for the flow experts totally wrong routing into the house,, might be good for soundpulses.. but really disaster for exhaust flow.(pest or colera)
I´ve heard it was ditched for some reason that you would never confess in front of other people.
BUT!!!
i divided us in two camp´s to try to make it more easy to see the stupid fight this is.
I´ll let you guys alone as long you can start looking outside the box and find out that the world actually is round, for me it seems that you(not personally) are very locked up in one direction.
You won´t see it any other way, And preaches your own bible for us 'ateists' in every possibility you can.
and as for the 'xxx' person.. if you feel touched.. well.. that´s your buisness.
But i often use this to be a little carefully on the web.
Rgds
The missionary man
Hail long pipes..! *LOL*
They 'clip' the turbinewheels among other things, as it doesn´t seem too exist a proper turbinewheel for that specific setup.
Turbo in that Nissan car we keep whining about as nicely as you form it.
In that application it was an Precision turbo
E60 impeller (59mm inducer and 75mm exducer)
Stg III turbine in A/R 0.63
the second blow was cylinderwalls between 2nd and 3rd cylinder melted away..
But how about that Toyota with blown pistons and more?
I can give more examples.. two supras with problems.
All sts turbo´s.
that first nissan in this post i should say. that turbo didn´t come from sts.
But i have run one myself with approx 26cm runners.. worked fine for me with 2.1bar pressure.
But that was with VERY mild camshafts, tested more aggressive camshafts, wouldn´t work at all.
And i know someone talking about camshafts with at least 270 degree to use the correct pulse.
And how a short runner manifold can produce backpressure?... well.
Short runners are often(almost 100% in every case) equal as bad routing for the runners and unequal lenghts, the pulses start collide,, major disaster before it even has reached the turbine.
You might gain a little response/spool around 2500rpm´s.. but you loose a lot in upper rpm´s with chaos in exhaust manifold.(seen many examples)
the best application i´ve seen these short runners in are actually motorcycles that revs around 12000-14000rpm´s..
at those rpm´s the runnerlength´s are starting to get 'tuned' as the way 'we' do it.
The worst appication i´ve seen should be a EVO that had some major welds into the turbinehouse and for the flow experts totally wrong routing into the house,, might be good for soundpulses.. but really disaster for exhaust flow.(pest or colera)
I´ve heard it was ditched for some reason that you would never confess in front of other people.
BUT!!!
i divided us in two camp´s to try to make it more easy to see the stupid fight this is.
I´ll let you guys alone as long you can start looking outside the box and find out that the world actually is round, for me it seems that you(not personally) are very locked up in one direction.
You won´t see it any other way, And preaches your own bible for us 'ateists' in every possibility you can.
and as for the 'xxx' person.. if you feel touched.. well.. that´s your buisness.
But i often use this to be a little carefully on the web.
Rgds
The missionary man
Hail long pipes..! *LOL*
23-12-2006, 05:48 PM
#124
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Originally Posted by PatrickSwe
IHI Holset Schwitzer etc etc are all fine turbos,, as long as 'sts' doesn´t fiddle with ´em. (Me myself are actually in love with Schwitzer 'sg362')
They 'clip' the turbinewheels among other things, as it doesn´t seem too exist a proper turbinewheel for that specific setup.
Turbo in that Nissan car we keep whining about as nicely as you form it.
In that application it was an Precision turbo
E60 impeller (59mm inducer and 75mm exducer)
Stg III turbine in A/R 0.63
the second blow was cylinderwalls between 2nd and 3rd cylinder melted away..
But how about that Toyota with blown pistons and more?
I can give more examples.. two supras with problems.
All sts turbo´s.
that first nissan in this post i should say. that turbo didn´t come from sts.
But i have run one myself with approx 26cm runners.. worked fine for me with 2.1bar pressure.
But that was with VERY mild camshafts, tested more aggressive camshafts, wouldn´t work at all.
And i know someone talking about camshafts with at least 270 degree to use the correct pulse.
And how a short runner manifold can produce backpressure?... well.
Short runners are often(almost 100% in every case) equal as bad routing for the runners and unequal lenghts, the pulses start collide,, major disaster before it even has reached the turbine.
You might gain a little response/spool around 2500rpm´s.. but you loose a lot in upper rpm´s with chaos in exhaust manifold.(seen many examples)
the best application i´ve seen these short runners in are actually motorcycles that revs around 12000-14000rpm´s..
at those rpm´s the runnerlength´s are starting to get 'tuned' as the way 'we' do it.
The worst appication i´ve seen should be a EVO that had some major welds into the turbinehouse and for the flow experts totally wrong routing into the house,, might be good for soundpulses.. but really disaster for exhaust flow.(pest or colera)
I´ve heard it was ditched for some reason that you would never confess in front of other people.
BUT!!!
i divided us in two camp´s to try to make it more easy to see the stupid fight this is.
I´ll let you guys alone as long you can start looking outside the box and find out that the world actually is round, for me it seems that you(not personally) are very locked up in one direction.
You won´t see it any other way, And preaches your own bible for us 'ateists' in every possibility you can.
and as for the 'xxx' person.. if you feel touched.. well.. that´s your buisness.
But i often use this to be a little carefully on the web.
Rgds
The missionary man
Hail long pipes..! *LOL*
They 'clip' the turbinewheels among other things, as it doesn´t seem too exist a proper turbinewheel for that specific setup.
Turbo in that Nissan car we keep whining about as nicely as you form it.
In that application it was an Precision turbo
E60 impeller (59mm inducer and 75mm exducer)
Stg III turbine in A/R 0.63
the second blow was cylinderwalls between 2nd and 3rd cylinder melted away..
But how about that Toyota with blown pistons and more?
I can give more examples.. two supras with problems.
All sts turbo´s.
that first nissan in this post i should say. that turbo didn´t come from sts.
But i have run one myself with approx 26cm runners.. worked fine for me with 2.1bar pressure.
But that was with VERY mild camshafts, tested more aggressive camshafts, wouldn´t work at all.
And i know someone talking about camshafts with at least 270 degree to use the correct pulse.
And how a short runner manifold can produce backpressure?... well.
Short runners are often(almost 100% in every case) equal as bad routing for the runners and unequal lenghts, the pulses start collide,, major disaster before it even has reached the turbine.
You might gain a little response/spool around 2500rpm´s.. but you loose a lot in upper rpm´s with chaos in exhaust manifold.(seen many examples)
the best application i´ve seen these short runners in are actually motorcycles that revs around 12000-14000rpm´s..
at those rpm´s the runnerlength´s are starting to get 'tuned' as the way 'we' do it.
The worst appication i´ve seen should be a EVO that had some major welds into the turbinehouse and for the flow experts totally wrong routing into the house,, might be good for soundpulses.. but really disaster for exhaust flow.(pest or colera)
I´ve heard it was ditched for some reason that you would never confess in front of other people.
BUT!!!
i divided us in two camp´s to try to make it more easy to see the stupid fight this is.
I´ll let you guys alone as long you can start looking outside the box and find out that the world actually is round, for me it seems that you(not personally) are very locked up in one direction.
You won´t see it any other way, And preaches your own bible for us 'ateists' in every possibility you can.
and as for the 'xxx' person.. if you feel touched.. well.. that´s your buisness.
But i often use this to be a little carefully on the web.
Rgds
The missionary man
Hail long pipes..! *LOL*
What evo? You mean the kami evo that this dude from rimbo(sweden) helped out?? I have nothing to do with that! sorry my friend i think you are blaming wrong person.
I have never used any wingclipped STS turbos.. thats wrong way in my opinion.. Its an suicidemove from the 80s to reduce BP.
Ok i understand if you use a precision turbo and short manifold you are in trouble since even guys with long manifolds are in trouble, those turbos are pretty much off balance in turbine/compressor.
You say pulses collide in manifold?? shouldnt they collide even more in a longer manifold since it takes longer for the pulse to travel to the collector? Listen to your self.. Equal lenghts are not an major issue in a turboengine, it is important in a N/A engine so you get the extraction effect. Maybe you are just confused?
But its ok, i dont want to argue on UK soil with Swedes. I say Enough.
"Dont argue with an village idiot, he will just drag you to his level and beat you with experience"
26-12-2006, 04:35 PM
#125
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Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Well Mikko, you and Peter could both send me suitable manifolds for a mutually agreed control turbo and I could arrange for them to be tested on an independant dyno back to back with the TG Racing one 
.
.
26-12-2006, 06:25 PM
#126
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Good reading so far (well except for that bump in the road... LOL).
I'm keeping any eye (as I'm sure many are) on this post so when I'm ready to get one I'll see who I can consult for my application.
One question, what is the difference between divided housing and open ones in the manifold/turbo mounting location?
I'm keeping any eye (as I'm sure many are) on this post so when I'm ready to get one I'll see who I can consult for my application.
One question, what is the difference between divided housing and open ones in the manifold/turbo mounting location?
26-12-2006, 07:23 PM
#128
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Originally Posted by kaliber cossie
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Well Mikko, you and Peter could both send me suitable manifolds for a mutually agreed control turbo and I could arrange for them to be tested on an independant dyno back to back with the TG Racing one .
.I can deliver you a manifold, but i need to know what turbo you are to use. When is this going to happen? When do you need it?
Regards
26-12-2006, 07:54 PM
#129
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Originally Posted by kaliber cossie
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Well Mikko, you and Peter could both send me suitable manifolds for a mutually agreed control turbo and I could arrange for them to be tested on an independant dyno back to back with the TG Racing one .
.Mark
26-12-2006, 09:25 PM
#131
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Originally Posted by msport
Originally Posted by kaliber cossie
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Well Mikko, you and Peter could both send me suitable manifolds for a mutually agreed control turbo and I could arrange for them to be tested on an independant dyno back to back with the TG Racing one .
.I can deliver you a manifold, but i need to know what turbo you are to use. When is this going to happen? When do you need it?
Regards
26-12-2006, 09:27 PM
#132
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Originally Posted by RWD_cossie_wil
whats going to be best for a GT35 then?
but other will have there type 
.Mark
26-12-2006, 09:28 PM
#133
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Originally Posted by kaliber cossie
Originally Posted by msport
Originally Posted by kaliber cossie
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Well Mikko, you and Peter could both send me suitable manifolds for a mutually agreed control turbo and I could arrange for them to be tested on an independant dyno back to back with the TG Racing one .
.I can deliver you a manifold, but i need to know what turbo you are to use. When is this going to happen? When do you need it?
Regards
Mark
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