Cosworth exhaust manifolds, hopefully a technical discussion
23-11-2006, 02:31 PM
#82
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northants
Posts: 9,076
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
I never have a problem getting through, I have all his numbers 
.
. ROFLOL
23-11-2006, 02:39 PM
#83
Originally Posted by Billabong
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
I never have a problem getting through, I have all his numbers .
. ROFLOL 
.
23-11-2006, 03:55 PM
#84
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Originally Posted by Peter G
Hi guys,
I dont like this kinds of discussions. Especialy not when I having a good cold Guinness in my hand and enjoing Ministry of sound live radio
Its even more terrible that I have to write in english....
At first, I dont think you Chip-3door is bias in this case. So I post some pictures of this beatifully polished manifold.
I dont want to argue about wish is the best. Just point on some things.
In my eyes, this is a 90 degree wastegate outlet. And nothing else. If we talk about to let the flow go in a smooth direction. This is how it should be....
....if we were 10 years back in time... This days the turbochargers is so much better with small turbines that spools fast as hell and create a backpressure. So this is not neccesary. If you not running an old T04E...
Once again...I dont want to start an argue. I know that MikeR is selling this manifolds. As you guys also can see at Martin´s manifold, the wastegate is in 90 degree. If this is wrong, Im 100% sure that the guys at Primary Designs not should build like that
For the last 6 month I have spend a lot of time and money to test a lot of designs on manifolds and especialy wastegate outlets.
As you all know, there is always a higher pressure in the manifold than the boost is. The wastegate is working like a valve that release the pressure. If the wastegate is correctly sized, not to big or not to small, it doesnt matter in wich direction the outlet in the collector is. Trust me, I have tried this on the dyno. The manifold in picture 1 wich is horrible, has output 732bhp at the flywheel on an YB with an Turbonetics T66 Q-trim and TIAL 46mm wastegate, with a "beatiful boostcurve" and no peaks.
I also want to say that me and msport not is friends. I know who he is, and he knows me.
This is one of my most interesting projects.
Team Jakan Racing Sport compact dragracing. This is a low 8sec car. The engine is an S14 from the old M3 E30. 2.3-16V 4cyl. I have built their manifolds for a couple of years. Last season......
938,3bhp at the flywheel at 1,95bar boost. With the wastegates full open, it goes as low as 0,4 bar. They also measures the different in EGT in primaries. It was 6 degrees celsius between the highest and the lowest.
At the end of the season the boost was 2,05, about 1050bhp... With no NOS...
I dont want to brag. But its so sorry to see that people is throwing shit and assume that the products is shit without even trying it...
When im developing new products, I always test it on the dyno. Or my customers do. For example this manifold to SAAB 9000 Aero.
This is dynopapers from a customer in the UK. He was running a regular 400bhp stage from Maptun with a GT30R, T25 flanged with internal wastegate. They put the car in the dyno and run it with the original cast manifold and 3" downpipe. Run 2 is with original manifold.
Run 3 is with the manifold in the picture. After this the ECU is tuned and all curves is much better in the low and mid.
Once again, I dont want to brag. Just show that all my products is realy tested before I start to selling it. In this writing moment, one of my manifolds for the Cosworth in picture 2 is in the UK at a customer that want to try it on the dyno. I send it with no payment. If hes not happy, I take it back. If he is happy, he will be an UK reseller for my manifolds...
The testcar is an Escort Cosworth with a GT30R. Of course that we will publish the dynoresults.
Mike Rainbird, the manifold you got from me is one of my prototype Vers1. I dont work for small money. So all I can say is "You got what you pay for". No hard feelings. I will send you an email...
I hope that this NOT will cause me an my company PeterG Production any damage. We have been in this situation in Sweden for some years ago. Guys, you cant belive how many "manifoldmakers" there is.
Im not satisfied with that the outside is beatiful...The inside should even be better...
Thanks Peter G
I dont like this kinds of discussions. Especialy not when I having a good cold Guinness in my hand and enjoing Ministry of sound live radio
Its even more terrible that I have to write in english....
At first, I dont think you Chip-3door is bias in this case. So I post some pictures of this beatifully polished manifold.
I dont want to argue about wish is the best. Just point on some things.
In my eyes, this is a 90 degree wastegate outlet. And nothing else. If we talk about to let the flow go in a smooth direction. This is how it should be....
....if we were 10 years back in time... This days the turbochargers is so much better with small turbines that spools fast as hell and create a backpressure. So this is not neccesary. If you not running an old T04E...
Once again...I dont want to start an argue. I know that MikeR is selling this manifolds. As you guys also can see at Martin´s manifold, the wastegate is in 90 degree. If this is wrong, Im 100% sure that the guys at Primary Designs not should build like that
For the last 6 month I have spend a lot of time and money to test a lot of designs on manifolds and especialy wastegate outlets.
As you all know, there is always a higher pressure in the manifold than the boost is. The wastegate is working like a valve that release the pressure. If the wastegate is correctly sized, not to big or not to small, it doesnt matter in wich direction the outlet in the collector is. Trust me, I have tried this on the dyno. The manifold in picture 1 wich is horrible, has output 732bhp at the flywheel on an YB with an Turbonetics T66 Q-trim and TIAL 46mm wastegate, with a "beatiful boostcurve" and no peaks.
I also want to say that me and msport not is friends. I know who he is, and he knows me.
This is one of my most interesting projects.
Team Jakan Racing Sport compact dragracing. This is a low 8sec car. The engine is an S14 from the old M3 E30. 2.3-16V 4cyl. I have built their manifolds for a couple of years. Last season......
938,3bhp at the flywheel at 1,95bar boost. With the wastegates full open, it goes as low as 0,4 bar. They also measures the different in EGT in primaries. It was 6 degrees celsius between the highest and the lowest.
At the end of the season the boost was 2,05, about 1050bhp... With no NOS...
I dont want to brag. But its so sorry to see that people is throwing shit and assume that the products is shit without even trying it...
When im developing new products, I always test it on the dyno. Or my customers do. For example this manifold to SAAB 9000 Aero.
This is dynopapers from a customer in the UK. He was running a regular 400bhp stage from Maptun with a GT30R, T25 flanged with internal wastegate. They put the car in the dyno and run it with the original cast manifold and 3" downpipe. Run 2 is with original manifold.
Run 3 is with the manifold in the picture. After this the ECU is tuned and all curves is much better in the low and mid.
Once again, I dont want to brag. Just show that all my products is realy tested before I start to selling it. In this writing moment, one of my manifolds for the Cosworth in picture 2 is in the UK at a customer that want to try it on the dyno. I send it with no payment. If hes not happy, I take it back. If he is happy, he will be an UK reseller for my manifolds...
The testcar is an Escort Cosworth with a GT30R. Of course that we will publish the dynoresults.
Mike Rainbird, the manifold you got from me is one of my prototype Vers1. I dont work for small money. So all I can say is "You got what you pay for". No hard feelings. I will send you an email...
I hope that this NOT will cause me an my company PeterG Production any damage. We have been in this situation in Sweden for some years ago. Guys, you cant belive how many "manifoldmakers" there is.
Im not satisfied with that the outside is beatiful...The inside should even be better...
Thanks Peter G
On you one which has a realy nice outlet bend realy can only take 50% max flow of the second tube of the split pulse so a problem could arise as there is not tech equeal back pressure in all the runners of you devided runners, I can just see you have done the other side of the manifold the same.
Also you say in picture 2 is your manifold someone is test please show me which manifold you are refering to.
Mark
23-11-2006, 05:16 PM
#85
Wahay!! I've lost my Virginity!!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: swe
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
nice figures and pictures peter, but really, what difference does it make when no other "competitor" manifolds are tested to compare to? Just giving BIG bhp results and slight better curves compared to std? units does not say a jack to me. Any manifold that flows enough will basically do lots of BHP but not that sure it works as good in a for example wrc or rallycrossengine. Saw you wrote about temperature differences in the 4separate pipes, that only 6degrees diff.. I really dont think its the manifold that makes exh.temperatures even..
I am not saying you are wrong about manifolds, absolutely not, I was the one who said your manifold looked best of the 3 shown on page 1 on this thread. Id love to compare one of my designs with yours on a specific engine and turbo, just for fun. Would be real interesting to see how much a difference it would make. It is a free world and there are many ideas and ways to make things. My customers in motorsport have very wide knowledge about stuff and the items i deliver must really work, not just look good, else those items will shiftly fill my shelves in return.
best of luck in the future,
regards
I am not saying you are wrong about manifolds, absolutely not, I was the one who said your manifold looked best of the 3 shown on page 1 on this thread.
Id love to compare one of my designs with yours on a specific engine and turbo, just for fun. Would be real interesting to see how much a difference it would make. It is a free world and there are many ideas and ways to make things. My customers in motorsport have very wide knowledge about stuff and the items i deliver must really work, not just look good, else those items will shiftly fill my shelves in return.best of luck in the future,
regards
23-11-2006, 08:25 PM
#88
Wahay!! I've lost my Virginity!!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: swe
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Well Mikko, you and Peter could both send me suitable manifolds for a mutually agreed control turbo and I could arrange for them to be tested on an independant dyno back to back with the TG Racing one .
.
24-11-2006, 08:58 AM
#91
PassionFord Post Troll
Originally Posted by kevmk2
How about this style of inconel manifold with an indy car wastegate?
This engine is going in a mk2 escort,so space was an issue.
This engine is going in a mk2 escort,so space was an issue.
Best to either keep the seperate or join them at a much shallower angle.
24-11-2006, 09:20 AM
#93
Originally Posted by MAD YUM
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Originally Posted by GARETH T
i hope that dyno is tuv approved mike
.Did some say TUV
.
.
24-11-2006, 11:44 AM
#96
...not read any of this boring topic...there comes a time where you have to sit back and ask youself..am i really discussing this,surely having a wank is better ...So i have been wanking personally for about an hour and managed to shoot my load when you replied to me..thanks friend.
...So i have been wanking personally for about an hour and managed to shoot my load when you replied to me..thanks friend.
24-11-2006, 12:04 PM
#98
Originally Posted by Garage19
"hopefully a technical discussion" so fuck off and have a wank in the muppet room 
But then thats probably why he is here
Mike, it might be an idea if any "off topic" chat is removed from this thread as it doesnt give a good impression to those people like PeterG kind enough to register to this forum and enter into a sensible and inteligent conversaion.
24-11-2006, 12:04 PM
#99
Originally Posted by Garage19
"hopefully a technical discussion" so fuck off and have a wank in the muppet room
Get you
...Pent up anger...it looks like you need a wank wanna join me?
24-11-2006, 12:06 PM
#100
Its funny you know how all of a sudden i am just a piece of shit on your shoes. 
Far to stuck up in here so i am out of this boring topic made by an equally boring person it seems.
Far to stuck up in here so i am out of this boring topic made by an equally boring person it seems.
24-11-2006, 12:08 PM
#101
Originally Posted by Bosch-Man
Its funny you know how all of a sudden i am just a piece of shit on your shoes.
Far to stuck up in here so i am out of this boring topic made by an equally boring person it seems.
Far to stuck up in here so i am out of this boring topic made by an equally boring person it seems.
Its not "stuck up" in here, its just a useful and interesting thread with a strongly focussed theme, nothing more and nothing less.
24-11-2006, 12:25 PM
#102
20K+ Super Poster.
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Essex... and Birmingham!
Posts: 21,512
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by chip-3door
Mike, it might be an idea if any "off topic" chat is removed from this thread as it doesnt give a good impression to those people like PeterG kind enough to register to this forum and enter into a sensible and inteligent conversaion.
24-11-2006, 04:48 PM
#104
Wahay!! I've lost my Virginity!!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: swe
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Rick
Originally Posted by msport
Originally Posted by Rick
be nice to get all these on a dyno on the same engine.... Only way to truly test them.
Its hard to do it that way because every turbo needs a specific manifold for the best function. i.e the GT35 might work good on a specific manifold, but wont as near that good with another.
Regards
24-11-2006, 11:38 PM
#105
15000
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Sweden
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi,
At first...We been through this kind of discussion in Sweden for a couple of years ago, at the swedish ford community(WWW.FMCS.NU). It was a lot of talk about different theories from a lot of "experts". For example that the primaries should be as short as possible, different length for a wide powerband, that mildsteel is the best material, and so on....
In the end there was no one that could back up their theories, with for example a dynopaper. At that moment, I doesn´t have the posibility to try my manifolds at the dyno. So I wasn´t better than anyone else.
I can say like this: I eat, shit, sleep and live turbomanifolds.. Thats my life and I love to build them I spend MANY hours to even learn any more about manifold design and turbocharging.
When I design a new manifold, I NEVER look at the competitors work. It doesnt mean a shit for me how their manifolds works. I look what the original cast manifold is capable to handle. For example the dynopapers above on the SAAB manifold. That original manifold can handle about 400bhp. So if you for example want to run a GT28RS or a GT2871R on a SAAB, you dont necessary have to change to a tubular manifold.
BUT if you want more power, theres no compromises as you can see at the dynopapers.
The same is for the Cosworth manifold that I build. The RWD manifold is good, but with a tubular manifold there will be a better mid range and topend. For example the dyno that was done before I released the new cosworth T3 manifold. The engine was capable of about 570-575bhp at the flywheel with the RWD manifold, GT35R and external wastegate.
With the tubular manifold it resulted in 628bhp with a much better powerband and about 50bhp more at the top. The engine runs perfect without any boostpeaks, fast spool-up and the turbo work as it should. And it is totally unnecessary for me to know how much the competitors manifold can handle.
The limit for a GT35R is 630-640bhp. So me and the customer is satisfied.
And im preatty sure that it wont work any better with another manifold.
Different manifolds works different, with different turbos. Thats why its not possible to run a test between manifold. And thats why I NEVER will be a part of any kinds of tests. I belive in what I do, and its up to the customer to belive in me. As I said earlier, I have sent one of my manifolds to a customer/company in the UK. At first we want to see so they will fit a RHD car. At the same time they will test it on the dyno. Thats okey for me, because I want to see how it will work comparing to the RWD manifold with a smaller turbo(GT30R).
The manifolds below is for a Nissan S14 driftcar.
The manifold to the rigth is built by a company in sweden that want short primaries, and want to use the same turbos that msport(Mikko) like...
The theory behind this is that the pulses will give the turbo a very fast spool-up and a very little backpreassure.
The customer was using this manifold in 2005 season. It ended up in two destroied engines, EGT far above 1000 dg celsius, to much backpressure.
So the boost was limited at 1.0 bar.
To this season, 2006, we build a new manifold(to the left). Still using same turbo and wastegate. It resulted in up to 2.2bar boost, an EGT of about 900dg celsius and a minimum of backpressure. And of course no broken engines
I also give you a picture inside a collector on my manifolds.
I have a big respect for you guys, and for the manufacturers of manifolds in the UK.
I hope you are satisfied with this explanation. I will gladly answer your questions. As long as they are "technical" and not of topic chat.
And sorry Mike Rainbird, you will recive an email from me soon..
Thanks again Peter G
At first...We been through this kind of discussion in Sweden for a couple of years ago, at the swedish ford community(WWW.FMCS.NU). It was a lot of talk about different theories from a lot of "experts". For example that the primaries should be as short as possible, different length for a wide powerband, that mildsteel is the best material, and so on....
In the end there was no one that could back up their theories, with for example a dynopaper. At that moment, I doesn´t have the posibility to try my manifolds at the dyno. So I wasn´t better than anyone else.
I can say like this: I eat, shit, sleep and live turbomanifolds.. Thats my life and I love to build them
I spend MANY hours to even learn any more about manifold design and turbocharging.When I design a new manifold, I NEVER look at the competitors work. It doesnt mean a shit for me how their manifolds works. I look what the original cast manifold is capable to handle. For example the dynopapers above on the SAAB manifold. That original manifold can handle about 400bhp. So if you for example want to run a GT28RS or a GT2871R on a SAAB, you dont necessary have to change to a tubular manifold.
BUT if you want more power, theres no compromises as you can see at the dynopapers.
The same is for the Cosworth manifold that I build. The RWD manifold is good, but with a tubular manifold there will be a better mid range and topend. For example the dyno that was done before I released the new cosworth T3 manifold. The engine was capable of about 570-575bhp at the flywheel with the RWD manifold, GT35R and external wastegate.
With the tubular manifold it resulted in 628bhp with a much better powerband and about 50bhp more at the top. The engine runs perfect without any boostpeaks, fast spool-up and the turbo work as it should. And it is totally unnecessary for me to know how much the competitors manifold can handle.
The limit for a GT35R is 630-640bhp. So me and the customer is satisfied.
And im preatty sure that it wont work any better with another manifold.
Different manifolds works different, with different turbos. Thats why its not possible to run a test between manifold. And thats why I NEVER will be a part of any kinds of tests. I belive in what I do, and its up to the customer to belive in me. As I said earlier, I have sent one of my manifolds to a customer/company in the UK. At first we want to see so they will fit a RHD car. At the same time they will test it on the dyno. Thats okey for me, because I want to see how it will work comparing to the RWD manifold with a smaller turbo(GT30R).
The manifolds below is for a Nissan S14 driftcar.
The manifold to the rigth is built by a company in sweden that want short primaries, and want to use the same turbos that msport(Mikko) like...
The theory behind this is that the pulses will give the turbo a very fast spool-up and a very little backpreassure.
The customer was using this manifold in 2005 season. It ended up in two destroied engines, EGT far above 1000 dg celsius, to much backpressure.
So the boost was limited at 1.0 bar.
To this season, 2006, we build a new manifold(to the left). Still using same turbo and wastegate. It resulted in up to 2.2bar boost, an EGT of about 900dg celsius and a minimum of backpressure. And of course no broken engines
I also give you a picture inside a collector on my manifolds.
I have a big respect for you guys, and for the manufacturers of manifolds in the UK.
I hope you are satisfied with this explanation. I will gladly answer your questions. As long as they are "technical" and not of topic chat.
And sorry Mike Rainbird, you will recive an email from me soon..
Thanks again Peter G
25-11-2006, 07:35 AM
#107
PassionFord Post Troll
PeterG you have some fine craftsmanship there! 
Your manifolds are very well fabricated.
A few more questions:
What grade of stainless do you use and how thick wall?
Do you ever have any problems with cracking from expansion/fatigue?
Do you always support the turbo with another method as well as the manifold eg turbo damper, or is this no needed?
How thick are your head flanges and how do you prevent them from warping when welding?
Are all your welds purged with an argon supply to the back of the weld?
Thanks,
Doug.
Your manifolds are very well fabricated.
A few more questions:
What grade of stainless do you use and how thick wall?
Do you ever have any problems with cracking from expansion/fatigue?
Do you always support the turbo with another method as well as the manifold eg turbo damper, or is this no needed?
How thick are your head flanges and how do you prevent them from warping when welding?
Are all your welds purged with an argon supply to the back of the weld?
Thanks,
Doug.
25-11-2006, 08:00 AM
#108
Wahay!! I've lost my Virginity!!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: swe
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Peter G
Hi,
At first...We been through this kind of discussion in Sweden for a couple of years ago, at the swedish ford community(WWW.FMCS.NU). It was a lot of talk about different theories from a lot of "experts". For example that the primaries should be as short as possible, different length for a wide powerband, that mildsteel is the best material, and so on....
In the end there was no one that could back up their theories, with for example a dynopaper. At that moment, I doesn´t have the posibility to try my manifolds at the dyno. So I wasn´t better than anyone else.
I can say like this: I eat, shit, sleep and live turbomanifolds.. Thats my life and I love to build them I spend MANY hours to even learn any more about manifold design and turbocharging.
When I design a new manifold, I NEVER look at the competitors work. It doesnt mean a shit for me how their manifolds works. I look what the original cast manifold is capable to handle. For example the dynopapers above on the SAAB manifold. That original manifold can handle about 400bhp. So if you for example want to run a GT28RS or a GT2871R on a SAAB, you dont necessary have to change to a tubular manifold.
BUT if you want more power, theres no compromises as you can see at the dynopapers.
The same is for the Cosworth manifold that I build. The RWD manifold is good, but with a tubular manifold there will be a better mid range and topend. For example the dyno that was done before I released the new cosworth T3 manifold. The engine was capable of about 570-575bhp at the flywheel with the RWD manifold, GT35R and external wastegate.
With the tubular manifold it resulted in 628bhp with a much better powerband and about 50bhp more at the top. The engine runs perfect without any boostpeaks, fast spool-up and the turbo work as it should. And it is totally unnecessary for me to know how much the competitors manifold can handle.
The limit for a GT35R is 630-640bhp. So me and the customer is satisfied.
And im preatty sure that it wont work any better with another manifold.
Different manifolds works different, with different turbos. Thats why its not possible to run a test between manifold. And thats why I NEVER will be a part of any kinds of tests. I belive in what I do, and its up to the customer to belive in me. As I said earlier, I have sent one of my manifolds to a customer/company in the UK. At first we want to see so they will fit a RHD car. At the same time they will test it on the dyno. Thats okey for me, because I want to see how it will work comparing to the RWD manifold with a smaller turbo(GT30R).
The manifolds below is for a Nissan S14 driftcar.
The manifold to the rigth is built by a company in sweden that want short primaries, and want to use the same turbos that msport(Mikko) like...
The theory behind this is that the pulses will give the turbo a very fast spool-up and a very little backpreassure.
The customer was using this manifold in 2005 season. It ended up in two destroied engines, EGT far above 1000 dg celsius, to much backpressure.
So the boost was limited at 1.0 bar.
To this season, 2006, we build a new manifold(to the left). Still using same turbo and wastegate. It resulted in up to 2.2bar boost, an EGT of about 900dg celsius and a minimum of backpressure. And of course no broken engines
I also give you a picture inside a collector on my manifolds.
I have a big respect for you guys, and for the manufacturers of manifolds in the UK.
I hope you are satisfied with this explanation. I will gladly answer your questions. As long as they are "technical" and not of topic chat.
And sorry Mike Rainbird, you will recive an email from me soon..
Thanks again Peter G
At first...We been through this kind of discussion in Sweden for a couple of years ago, at the swedish ford community(WWW.FMCS.NU). It was a lot of talk about different theories from a lot of "experts". For example that the primaries should be as short as possible, different length for a wide powerband, that mildsteel is the best material, and so on....
In the end there was no one that could back up their theories, with for example a dynopaper. At that moment, I doesn´t have the posibility to try my manifolds at the dyno. So I wasn´t better than anyone else.
I can say like this: I eat, shit, sleep and live turbomanifolds.. Thats my life and I love to build them
I spend MANY hours to even learn any more about manifold design and turbocharging.When I design a new manifold, I NEVER look at the competitors work. It doesnt mean a shit for me how their manifolds works. I look what the original cast manifold is capable to handle. For example the dynopapers above on the SAAB manifold. That original manifold can handle about 400bhp. So if you for example want to run a GT28RS or a GT2871R on a SAAB, you dont necessary have to change to a tubular manifold.
BUT if you want more power, theres no compromises as you can see at the dynopapers.
The same is for the Cosworth manifold that I build. The RWD manifold is good, but with a tubular manifold there will be a better mid range and topend. For example the dyno that was done before I released the new cosworth T3 manifold. The engine was capable of about 570-575bhp at the flywheel with the RWD manifold, GT35R and external wastegate.
With the tubular manifold it resulted in 628bhp with a much better powerband and about 50bhp more at the top. The engine runs perfect without any boostpeaks, fast spool-up and the turbo work as it should. And it is totally unnecessary for me to know how much the competitors manifold can handle.
The limit for a GT35R is 630-640bhp. So me and the customer is satisfied.
And im preatty sure that it wont work any better with another manifold.
Different manifolds works different, with different turbos. Thats why its not possible to run a test between manifold. And thats why I NEVER will be a part of any kinds of tests. I belive in what I do, and its up to the customer to belive in me. As I said earlier, I have sent one of my manifolds to a customer/company in the UK. At first we want to see so they will fit a RHD car. At the same time they will test it on the dyno. Thats okey for me, because I want to see how it will work comparing to the RWD manifold with a smaller turbo(GT30R).
The manifolds below is for a Nissan S14 driftcar.
The manifold to the rigth is built by a company in sweden that want short primaries, and want to use the same turbos that msport(Mikko) like...
The theory behind this is that the pulses will give the turbo a very fast spool-up and a very little backpreassure.
The customer was using this manifold in 2005 season. It ended up in two destroied engines, EGT far above 1000 dg celsius, to much backpressure.
So the boost was limited at 1.0 bar.
To this season, 2006, we build a new manifold(to the left). Still using same turbo and wastegate. It resulted in up to 2.2bar boost, an EGT of about 900dg celsius and a minimum of backpressure. And of course no broken engines
I also give you a picture inside a collector on my manifolds.
I have a big respect for you guys, and for the manufacturers of manifolds in the UK.
I hope you are satisfied with this explanation. I will gladly answer your questions. As long as they are "technical" and not of topic chat.
And sorry Mike Rainbird, you will recive an email from me soon..
Thanks again Peter G
So you say that the way i design manifolds break engines? Thats low..
As i said before its VERY much up to the turbo how you can design a manifold. You have to master turbos before you make a manifold like i want it. I dont throw shit on you, I told already you have nice manifolds that work, but i want my manifolds for a special purpose and design them and turbo together to work as a combo. I dont care about the market, I am not writing this to survive, I still eat, live and shit even if no manifolds are sold. I am a perfectionist to the bitter end, thats just the way it works for me.
Sorry to see the crap you just puked out. I hope you sell lots of manifolds so you will have the ham on the table for xmas.
Best Regards
25-11-2006, 09:48 AM
#111
Wahay!! I've lost my Virginity!!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: swe
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by cossiemanden
msport: i fail to se where peterg has mentioned that u cant build manifolds?
Take it easy, and dont ruin this great tech talk
Take it easy, and dont ruin this great tech talk
The manifold to the rigth is built by a company in sweden that want short primaries, and want to use the same turbos that msport(Mikko) like...
The theory behind this is that the pulses will give the turbo a very fast spool-up and a very little backpreassure.
The customer was using this manifold in 2005 season. It ended up in two destroied engines, EGT far above 1000 dg celsius, to much backpressure.
So the boost was limited at 1.0 bar.
To this season, 2006, we build a new manifold(to the left). Still using same turbo and wastegate. It resulted in up to 2.2bar boost, an EGT of about 900dg celsius and a minimum of backpressure. And of course no broken engines
My opinion is that this says just that.. I dont know is it just me?
Peter writes that short manifolds break engines.. yes they do if the turbo is wrong. But if its right you will gain performance i want, especially on a restricted engine where fast spoolup and response is everything. Imagine how fast a dragracecar would go if you took the benefits of this design, put a rallycrosscar unrestricted on the line.. it will destroy most of the super streetcars. Motorsports is the only true source of development, all this streetracing is lightyears behind, believe me.
No more inserts from me, since the swedish inserts started to drop in everything turned to shit throwing as usual, Uk people seems more nice to discuss with. Why this extreme defensive mode? No other can make manifolds? I havent seen ONE motorsport vehicle with a "streetmanifold", but i have seen many streetcars with motorsport manifolds.. says something?
good bye and luck.
25-11-2006, 10:01 AM
#112
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Wiltshire, Bath, chippenham area!
Posts: 7,428
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
4 Posts
msport Stick around!!
you know more about this than most here!!
also, slightly getting away from the track..
but out of interest
how well could an internally gated turbo regulate boost
at 7500rpm?(seems to be the figure u guys use?)
just to show how well these manifolds/external gates
work against a 'standard' set up.. thanks!
you know more about this than most here!!
also, slightly getting away from the track..
but out of interest
how well could an internally gated turbo regulate boost
at 7500rpm?(seems to be the figure u guys use?)
just to show how well these manifolds/external gates
work against a 'standard' set up.. thanks!
25-11-2006, 10:33 AM
#113
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Originally Posted by pee vee
but out of interest
how well could an internally gated turbo regulate boost
at 7500rpm?(seems to be the figure u guys use?)
just to show how well these manifolds/external gates
work against a 'standard' set up.. thanks!
my GT30 internal has single figures on a weak actuator.
25-11-2006, 04:09 PM
#114
DANISH cosworth abuser
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Holbćk, denmark
Posts: 1,467
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by msport
Originally Posted by cossiemanden
msport: i fail to se where peterg has mentioned that u cant build manifolds?
Take it easy, and dont ruin this great tech talk
Take it easy, and dont ruin this great tech talk
The manifold to the rigth is built by a company in sweden that want short primaries, and want to use the same turbos that msport(Mikko) like...
The theory behind this is that the pulses will give the turbo a very fast spool-up and a very little backpreassure.
The customer was using this manifold in 2005 season. It ended up in two destroied engines, EGT far above 1000 dg celsius, to much backpressure.
So the boost was limited at 1.0 bar.
To this season, 2006, we build a new manifold(to the left). Still using same turbo and wastegate. It resulted in up to 2.2bar boost, an EGT of about 900dg celsius and a minimum of backpressure. And of course no broken engines
My opinion is that this says just that.. I dont know is it just me?
Peter writes that short manifolds break engines.. yes they do if the turbo is wrong. But if its right you will gain performance i want, especially on a restricted engine where fast spoolup and response is everything. Imagine how fast a dragracecar would go if you took the benefits of this design, put a rallycrosscar unrestricted on the line.. it will destroy most of the super streetcars. Motorsports is the only true source of development, all this streetracing is lightyears behind, believe me.
No more inserts from me, since the swedish inserts started to drop in everything turned to shit throwing as usual, Uk people seems more nice to discuss with. Why this extreme defensive mode? No other can make manifolds? I havent seen ONE motorsport vehicle with a "streetmanifold", but i have seen many streetcars with motorsport manifolds.. says something?
good bye and luck.
Maybe he has just been lucky on this particular engine?
And this is an great forum, why stay away from it?
03-12-2006, 06:52 PM
#115
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Its not ford, but Ł108 for a nEW St/St mani. 
how do they make it for that?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NISSAN-200SX-1...QQcmdZViewItem
how do they make it for that?http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NISSAN-200SX-1...QQcmdZViewItem
03-12-2006, 07:03 PM
#116
Advanced PassionFord User
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Naaaaarch
Posts: 2,385
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The high cost of tubular manifolds is usually down to the time it takes to make them. That eBay manifold was probably one of several thousand stuck together by an army of small Chinese boys Rainbird has locked in his garage.
03-12-2006, 07:20 PM
#117
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Originally Posted by Jamz
The high cost of tubular manifolds is usually down to the time it takes to make them. That eBay manifold was probably one of several thousand stuck together by an army of small Chinese boys Rainbird has locked in his garage.
i know why they are dear mate, just not why this is so cheap. Even if mike's got alot of little R+B helpers
23-12-2006, 07:21 AM
#118
Virgin
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello,, PeterG is a close friend of mine.
This is my first post here, i have followed the discussion from the two corners here.
i just had to fill in,,
We are in two different 'camp's here in Sweden.
One 'team' is promoting this series of turbo´s:
http://www.turboservice.se/RaceTurbo.html
This is a kind of a 'underdog' turbo´s , might be fun to hit the bigdogs with this.
The other side of the campfire promotes Garrett and all of it´s different 2nd part manufacturer as Turbonetics/Innovative/Precision etc etc.
Well,, i just confess straight off here, Me and Peter is choosing 'garrett' because of it´s broad applictions.
This guy 'xxx' have chosen the other side as it seems, but what you guys in UK never see is that often,, VERY often you can read in different forums 'Used xxx turbo for sale, Only 250 swedish miles and fresh bearings and seals mounted, now only,,(very cheap price) '
They seem very hard to sell and overall they seem to have low mileage, but it may also be a sellers trick to try to get a descent buck for his turbo.
My own View of turbos is that we don´t have to invent the wheel once again.
They got real good numbers from old garrett´s in the Usa, GM has now Reached approx 1600hp with their global engine... turbo? well,, A Garrett..
I´ll rather pay xxx bucks on a thing i KNOW works than start experiment with theese 'perfect' turbos that produces no backpressure and so on....
but!!,, I have seen the other side of the coin.
Peter gave an example of an Nissan Engine that has blown twice..
Yes,, it was a pain in the ass to 'map' that engine from what i´ve seen in the shop who did it.
I have en another example,, an Celica GT4 ST 185 (carlos) they built after the same concept. they had BIG problems with ignition(couldn´t go over 12 degree and still very close to 'ping')
That turbo on the Celica was choosed by 'turboservice' to perform good on the application,,, in my eyes,, no good at all.
well,, in our little Garrettcamp here in Sweden keeps wondering.. how many drives around with this turboline in UK? (http://www.turboservice.se/RaceTurbo.html)
As i´ve seen there are mostly Garrett and offsprings of that that are mounted in your enginebays.
so..
Lets leave it at that. the other camp (who are outnumbered) chooses to go it´s own way.
And we in the garrett canp keep on winning races overall in the world as we speak,,
Who wan´t to join Garrett camp?
reach a hand..
This is my first post here, i have followed the discussion from the two corners here.
i just had to fill in,,
We are in two different 'camp's here in Sweden.
One 'team' is promoting this series of turbo´s:
http://www.turboservice.se/RaceTurbo.html
This is a kind of a 'underdog' turbo´s , might be fun to hit the bigdogs with this.
The other side of the campfire promotes Garrett and all of it´s different 2nd part manufacturer as Turbonetics/Innovative/Precision etc etc.
Well,, i just confess straight off here, Me and Peter is choosing 'garrett' because of it´s broad applictions.
This guy 'xxx' have chosen the other side as it seems, but what you guys in UK never see is that often,, VERY often you can read in different forums 'Used xxx turbo for sale, Only 250 swedish miles and fresh bearings and seals mounted, now only,,(very cheap price) '
They seem very hard to sell and overall they seem to have low mileage, but it may also be a sellers trick to try to get a descent buck for his turbo.
My own View of turbos is that we don´t have to invent the wheel once again.
They got real good numbers from old garrett´s in the Usa, GM has now Reached approx 1600hp with their global engine... turbo? well,, A Garrett..
I´ll rather pay xxx bucks on a thing i KNOW works than start experiment with theese 'perfect' turbos that produces no backpressure and so on....
but!!,, I have seen the other side of the coin.
Peter gave an example of an Nissan Engine that has blown twice..
Yes,, it was a pain in the ass to 'map' that engine from what i´ve seen in the shop who did it.
I have en another example,, an Celica GT4 ST 185 (carlos) they built after the same concept. they had BIG problems with ignition(couldn´t go over 12 degree and still very close to 'ping')
That turbo on the Celica was choosed by 'turboservice' to perform good on the application,,, in my eyes,, no good at all.
well,, in our little Garrettcamp here in Sweden keeps wondering.. how many drives around with this turboline in UK? (http://www.turboservice.se/RaceTurbo.html)
As i´ve seen there are mostly Garrett and offsprings of that that are mounted in your enginebays.
so..
Lets leave it at that. the other camp (who are outnumbered) chooses to go it´s own way.
And we in the garrett canp keep on winning races overall in the world as we speak,,
Who wan´t to join Garrett camp?
reach a hand..
23-12-2006, 10:49 AM
#119
My own View of turbos is that we don´t have to invent the wheel once again.
They got real good numbers from old garrett´s in the Usa, GM has now Reached approx 1600hp with their global engine... turbo? well,, A Garrett..
They got real good numbers from old garrett´s in the Usa, GM has now Reached approx 1600hp with their global engine... turbo? well,, A Garrett..
23-12-2006, 10:59 AM
#120
DEYTUKURJERBS
Originally Posted by Fiecos Dan
Originally Posted by Jamz
The high cost of tubular manifolds is usually down to the time it takes to make them. That eBay manifold was probably one of several thousand stuck together by an army of small Chinese boys Rainbird has locked in his garage.
i know why they are dear mate, just not why this is so cheap. Even if mike's got alot of little R+B helpers
Its not just the manifolds that are that cheap either, they do everything, and at the same sorta costs.
Build quality is rising all the time too, if it wasnt for the efforts of some people to slag the shit out of them and make out they far worse than they are, theyd be even more popular than they already are.
You see people slag the manifolds saying they crack, they do, but no more than any other stainless manifold you fit a turbo to with no support, they just comparing them to standard ones.
Friend of mine has a stainless HKS 1000quid one on his S13, its cracked 5 times so far, so he has binned it and just buying a few of the chinese ones, cheaper and better to fit new ones than keep repairing old expensive one...