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400bhp is not that much to ask, whats stopping it.

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Old 20-11-2006 | 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by leecavturbo
Originally Posted by chip-3door
Lee, the inlet manifold is anothe suspect.

Have you given any thought to replacing it?
correct my theory if you will. turbo's were essential invented to over come the restriction in the inlet tract/valves etc by forcing air past?
No they werent. They were invented to run intake manifolds at pressures above 1 bar absolute with ease to increase an engines VE without having to resort to displacement increase.

Pressure and flow is NOT a linear calculation any any size transfer vessel.

Any further thought on my previous comprehensive reply?
Old 20-11-2006 | 03:08 PM
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Its all about pressure drops Lee.


Thats why i said on the other forum about you measuring the boost at the manifold and at the turbo (or was it on hear, i dont remember )

That 1.2 at the inlet might be 2bar + at the turbo!


I cant comment on those other engiens as i havent worked on them so it would be guessing, they could be ported manifolds etc for example.
Old 20-11-2006 | 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by chip-3door
That 1.2 at the inlet might be 2bar + at the turbo!
Indeed, hence my compressor map comment...
Old 20-11-2006 | 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
Originally Posted by chip-3door
That 1.2 at the inlet might be 2bar + at the turbo!
Indeed, hence my compressor map comment...

Indeed, all too easy to think you are on the map about a bar absolute from where you really are!
Old 20-11-2006 | 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
If lots of extra boost pressure fails to yield any extra power then you have most probably either:

1) Reached the TIP max.
The head cant flow anymore volume due to turbine housing/manifold.

2) Hit a huge flow restriction in the exhaust.
The turbine cant flow any more volume due to backpressure in exhaust.

P.S: Both the above will normally show unusually high EGT's.

3) Hit a flow restriction in the inlet/head
Not easy to measure in absolute terms on a speed density system. Try measuring TIP and turn the boost up to see if it raises.

4) You have run off the compressor map and into excessive compressor heating.
Have you measured the Air temps at the inlet when Mapping?

4) Camshaft misstiming is causing a massive drop in VE.
What are the cams dialled in at? Is it laggier than expected?

One of the above will very likely be your problem.
yes thx stu.

1.) it is assumed that the manifold will flow upto 600bhp and the turbo hotside 450bhp . not assumed just what has been done before. and the turbo is rated at that flow

2.) will investigate . possibilty

3.) if i have a restriction i can increase pressure to increase volume (obviuosly until the on slaught of det?)

4.) at 1.2bar its nowhere near off the compressor map/ temps <40degs

5.) its not laggier than expected but still could be possibility

thx
Old 20-11-2006 | 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by leecavturbo

4.) at 1.2bar its nowhere near off the compressor map/ temps <40degs

See out points above mate.

That 1.2bar in the manifold could be eleventy seven psi at the turbo.
Old 20-11-2006 | 03:17 PM
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hmmm interesting about the boost pressure exactly as it exits the turbo . will test.
Old 20-11-2006 | 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by chip-3door
Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
Originally Posted by chip-3door
That 1.2 at the inlet might be 2bar + at the turbo!
Indeed, hence my compressor map comment...

Indeed, all too easy to think you are on the map about a bar absolute from where you really are!
Its actually quite incredible wheny ou look through my reports that only about 1 in 20 cars in for mapping actually manage to get through the first test. Leakage. We normally have masses of leaks from 1 bar onwards. People dont realise how much presure 1 bar actually is on a shonky jubillee clip, or, in a case last week, some wire tied round the joint like a belt.. yes, a cossie running 30psi.
Old 20-11-2006 | 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by leecavturbo
hmmm interesting about the boost pressure exactly as it exits the turbo . will test.
By probing different points in the inlet, you can see where a restriction is
Old 20-11-2006 | 03:21 PM
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or leak, lol
Old 20-11-2006 | 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by chip-3door
Originally Posted by leecavturbo
hmmm interesting about the boost pressure exactly as it exits the turbo . will test.
By probing different points in the inlet, you can see where a restriction is
yep fully understand that concept
Old 20-11-2006 | 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
Originally Posted by chip-3door
Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
Originally Posted by chip-3door
That 1.2 at the inlet might be 2bar + at the turbo!
Indeed, hence my compressor map comment...

Indeed, all too easy to think you are on the map about a bar absolute from where you really are!
Its actually quite incredible wheny ou look through my reports that only about 1 in 20 cars in for mapping actually manage to get through the first test. Leakage. We normally have masses of leaks from 1 bar onwards. People dont realise how much presure 1 bar actually is on a shonky jubillee clip, or, in a case last week, some wire tied round the joint like a belt.. yes, a cossie running 30psi.

Ah, good point, yes you can actually end up 20lbs along the bottom axis from where you think you are too with a leak!
I was only talking about restriction, but thats a VERY valid point (which i had completely forgotten to mention to Lee as I just *assumed* he would have no leaks)
Old 20-11-2006 | 03:23 PM
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i would assume there's no leaks to make the 336bhp on 1.2bar in the first place ????
Old 20-11-2006 | 03:24 PM
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and the turbo hotside 450bhp . not assumed just what has been done before. and the turbo is rated at that flow
The turbine or just the housing?
Old 20-11-2006 | 03:25 PM
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Btw Thx to ALL for your input
Old 20-11-2006 | 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
and the turbo hotside 450bhp . not assumed just what has been done before. and the turbo is rated at that flow
The turbine or just the housing?
both. its the bigger a/r's in this link
http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/me...egory_Code=GRT
Old 20-11-2006 | 04:01 PM
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before i went back to the rolling road, i would rig up some equipment to the car

pressure gauges, on the exhaust manifold, after the turbo on the exhaust, before intercooler, measure temps on the inlet to the intercooler, and exhaust manifold
Old 20-11-2006 | 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by GARETH T
pressure gauges, on the exhaust manifold, after the turbo on the exhaust, before intercooler, measure temps on the inlet to the intercooler, and exhaust manifold
Me too.
I would also have 6 boost gauges connected to:

Compressor housing.
Intercooler Inlet
Intercooler outlet
Before throttle body
After throttle body
Most convoluted inlet just before the valve if possible.
Old 20-11-2006 | 07:56 PM
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I would try manifold and turbo boost gauges first on the road, if there is a minimal difference in them, no point in all the rest.
Old 20-11-2006 | 08:15 PM
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are you running suitable valve springs for turbo charging
Old 20-11-2006 | 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Turbosystems
are you running suitable valve springs for turbo charging
I asked him that on another forum (i thought the pressures might be holding the valves open even after the cam lobe is gone) but i never got an answer, so i think perhaps he doesnt know
Old 20-11-2006 | 08:26 PM
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And i expected his mapper would have seen teh massive hydrocarbons present when this happens, so took it as a given YES.

All teh same though, sould have asked, well spotted Mr M
Old 20-11-2006 | 08:30 PM
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does anyone know what his mapper thinks is wrong as it is only his mapper that has had the benifit of examining the engine and all the data,or is it just a very complex problem known in the tuning industry as DIY itous
Old 20-11-2006 | 08:32 PM
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His mapper is John Nobles, they arent really DIY as such, lol
Old 20-11-2006 | 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
I think the exhaust needs looking at as well! Measure the back pressure, I bet it's the same as the boost pressure .
2.5 inch exhaust for 400 bhp
Old 20-11-2006 | 08:35 PM
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chip i wasn't refering to the mapper i was refering to the engine builder
Old 20-11-2006 | 09:34 PM
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Lee have you changed the 270 degree cam for a 250 and had no change what so ever?
Old 21-11-2006 | 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Turbosystems
chip i wasn't refering to the mapper i was refering to the engine builder
he says just a flow restriction somewhere
exhaust,duration,springs etc etc.
Old 21-11-2006 | 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by rapidcossie
Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
I think the exhaust needs looking at as well! Measure the back pressure, I bet it's the same as the boost pressure .
2.5 inch exhaust for 400 bhp
2.5inch has flowed 400 on several cars with this engine so i ASSUME it will on mine! i know assumptions are the mother of all fook ups, but i gotta go with if its been done before? and i have a less restrictive exhaust manifold and turbo hotside! but any owt i'm not trying to find the last 10bhp to crack 400 its 85bhp off
but if fitting a 3 or 3.5 inch is the answer no problem, thats why i'm here to find out what i need / did wrong.
Old 21-11-2006 | 05:34 AM
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boost pressure drops across IC and at turbo outlet / plenum will be recorded today approx 3:00pm for results
Old 21-11-2006 | 06:52 AM
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Interesting topic, keep us informed.
Old 21-11-2006 | 06:57 AM
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Mike i'm willing to bet your back pressure is greater than your boost pressure
Old 21-11-2006 | 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Rick
Mike i'm willing to bet your back pressure is greater than your boost pressure
I'll take that bet, as it was measured at 2-3psi LESS with the smaller exhaust (3" splitting into two x 2ź"), it now has equivalent to 3.53" (4" splitting into two x 2˝") - which makes it fractionally bigger than Martin's, and I'm only running a poxy T4 ).
Old 21-11-2006 | 01:40 PM
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i think we should all turn up for his rolling session and sort it out
Old 21-11-2006 | 01:45 PM
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RESULTS:
just been out with pressure readings taken from the turbo outlet and at the plenum . i only had a psi gauge for the pre IC reading which i saw a max of 21psi and the apexi which is reading at the plenum showed a max of 1.25bar ????????????//
it was too much hassle to connect 2 map sensors to the ecu and data log them
Old 21-11-2006 | 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by GARETH T
i think we should all turn up for his rolling session and sort it out
its not for lack of enthausiasm on my part i tell thee
Old 21-11-2006 | 01:47 PM
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Less than 0.2 bar pressure drop, so your problem is not there, intercooler is okay .
Old 21-11-2006 | 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Less than 0.2 bar pressure drop, so your problem is not there, intercooler is okay .
Old 21-11-2006 | 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by leecavturbo
Originally Posted by GARETH T
i think we should all turn up for his rolling session and sort it out
its not for lack of enthausiasm on my part i tell thee
i know mate,,,
Old 21-11-2006 | 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
Interesting topic, keep us informed.
Yes, the most interesting at the moment i think.

Strange problem too. 310-320bhp at 1,2bar is quite good I think, but hitting the wall and not getting any more power at all beyond 1,2bar is strange.
What power at 1bar?

Can´t think of anything that hasn´t already been mentioned tho.

Lars.


Quick Reply: 400bhp is not that much to ask, whats stopping it.



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