foreigneRS

bud-weis what is properly?

the std setup is heavily compromised in terms of suspension geometry vs cost, ease of installation etc, etc.

by fitting shims, you are correcting the geometry after lowering it has cocked it up further. better to not lower it in the first place if you ask me.

by slotting the holes you can improve the geometry to suit fast road or track driving (as in group n applications)

the other styles of beams or other components that have been discussed on this thread and the other improve things vastly (but at a cost).

a complete rework of the rear end with double wishbones would be the ultimate, but would cost even more.

and so it goes. that is life. everything is a compromise. pay your money and take your choice.

bud-weis

Right.......

i've had the geometry looked at today,it was all pretty much bang on to ford settings,so i had a tiny bit of toe out applied which has helped slightly
One thing he did mention was the rack felt really tight and responsive,which is normally a good thing but he said it may be why your feeling every little bump and may be why it feels a little nervous,because there's no give in it at all.

the car still tramlines though!!!!

what can i do to eliminate it? i don't want to spend money where it's not needed,but i want this problem sorted!!

i'll try a different rack sometime,but what else would be the cause people??

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Can't you read, it was supposed to be toe-IN!

JamesH

iTrader: (21)

bud-weis

well the toe out has improved it a bit

but i'll try a bit of toe in instead too,static it's paralle......

why don't you take a trip to my neck of the woods and see how it drives,then you can give a better argument then!!! hell i'll even buy you a Mcdonalds

Mike1

Martin

I think the thing is with your car it's been set up suspension wise to be very responsive at the front end and a lot of the slop/sneeze factor ( as suspension engineers call it ) has been taken out of the car. Combined with running big wheels with quite low profile tyres means the car probably will be quite fidgety on bumpy roads esp with longitudinal ridges/white lines. That will apply to a lot of cars with uprated suspension and big wheels/low profile tyres

Some tyres are worse than others for following these ridges ( tramlining ) and snatching over bumps etc. Some directional tyres are worse than others which is why I asked if you knew someone with a set of something like Parada Specs, Conti Sport Contacts or something with a different pattern than an F1 or T1-R or Falken ore whatever you have just to try on the front As to how much is unacceptable to you or someone else is hard to quantify.

I've run my Sapphire with a set of 17s with F1 GSD3s on for a while and the difference between that and the stock 15s was quite noticeable. It tramlined much more on bumpy roads The Sierra was only really set up to run 15s as a road car from the factory so going up 2" in wheel size will affect the compliance - just look at how many people complain about tramlining on stock E36/E46 BMs with sports suspension and 17/18/19" wheels - tyre choice becomes important as well.

The other thing with the 3-door hubs is they will the car even more responsive than the stock Sapphire ones. One of the briefs the factory engineers had when fiddling with the design on the Sapphire was to make it a less "nervous" car than the 3-door for Joe Public.
If you read the original 3-door tests (cars running on 15" wheels remember) they liked the responsive handling but similarly a lot complained about how fidgety the car was on rougher roads. They backed off the steering and introduced more compliance in the front joints to help reduce this. When the Sapphire came out in 2wd the journos praised it for being a more stable car in the corners and on undulating roads.

Knowing Jim was quite pernickety about his car ( i'm sure he won't mind me saying that as it was a credit to him ) I doubt it will be worn parts that are annoying you.

If it was my car and the tramlining was really annoying me, I'd try a couple of different tyre makes/patterns ( see if you can loan some wheels for an hour or two and try it on the roads that affect you badly ) and see if that makes any improvement. That would be my first move.
If that doesn't improve things, try an ordinary Sapphire ( without 3-door hubs on ) on 17" ( even your wheels ) over the same road and see what you think. You could always revert back to normal hubs as a last resort and

The flipside is that your car will probably be very responsive on smoother roads/tracks as it is - unfortunately suspension is always a bit of a compromise.

RWD_cossie_wil

iTrader: (9)

great thread

Mike1

I checked last night and almost all the original road tests of the 3 door from 86 complained about the car's twitchy steering and willingness to tramline................

...................but almost all of them liked the track car like responses

So it was part and parcel of the geo I would suggest.................and that was on the original 15"s ...(with D40s) ?

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

I don't need to come to you - toe-OUT makes the car more nervous and fidgety in a straight line, but keener to turn in. Toe-in makes it more stable in a straight line, with slower turn in.

You want 1-2mm TOE-IN front and rear for stability .

Mike1

You should have offered him a pasta salad......

RWD_cossie_wil

iTrader: (9)

so then , can anyone advise how to stop an escort cosworth (small turbo, don't know if that makes any odds?) on -25mm konis and std wheels with std tyres scrubbing the inside edge of the tyes away ? , mines eaten the inside 20mm to cords yet there is loads of tread left on the rest of the tyres.

I find the car turns in really quickly and positivly, maybe even slightly too quickly, but feels stable and slightly understeers on the limit on power, have to just tickle the brakes to keep the nose tight into the corner. Also running poly roll bar bushes. TCA bushes are in good condition.

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

That is a classic sign of TOE-OUT , go and get the geometry changed to 1-2mm TOE-IN.

RWD_cossie_wil

iTrader: (9)

. I might wait until I get a set of 18" wheels, as no doubt it will need doing again then anyway? Don't escost cossies have a reputation for scrubbing the inside edges of the front tyres due to camber? I take it all the washer type geometry type fixes can be applied to 4x4 as well as RWD?

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

They don't run that much camber on the front normally. It is only usually the camber on the rear as well as the toe-out that causes the excessive wear on the rear tyres. Normally the front is due to the tyres toeing out .

RWD_cossie_wil

iTrader: (9)

cheers mike you are a star I actually am quite shocked how much I like 4x4 now , but RWD is still more fun to drive

GARETH T

RWD_cossie_wil


4x4 can be fun,, you just gotta be nasty to it

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Or have shit loads of power .

GARETH T

true mike,, but i havent got that pleasure

bud-weis

The toe-OUT has definitely improved it!!!

what i'll do is have it set to toe-IN and if it makes it worse then i'm gonna send you a horses head

thanks for the tips though Mike

for next year i want to make it perform on track and the qtr mile.....so expect more threads

Mike1

I'm sure your front set-up should be good on the track

RWD_cossie_wil

iTrader: (9)

where did you get yours checked/adjusted bud? How much did it cost? I think chemix in halesowen do free laser alignment checks

bud-weis

Andy Fisher did it for me at his work in Redditch,only charged me Ł20

RWD_cossie_wil

iTrader: (9)

bargin

GARETH T- 4x4 can be fun,, you just gotta be nasty to it

I only got a stg 1 T25 , but it does swing the back end round with some left foot braking, but you have to go into the corner waaay too fast, back off at the same time as stabbing the brakes, then power it while holding a little bit of left foot braking, and it will drift quite nicely, but I can't get it to stay there for long as it just regains grip once you start to put the opposite lock on. In the wet its a bit more interesting, I had it on the lock stops a few weeks ago which was a little worrying to say the least, . and to be honest driving like that on the road is a bit silly for the health of my licence/tyres/brakes , even at 3am I'm just looking forward to some snow now

I was going to RWD it but I actually quite like the way 4x4 and a tiny turbo work together, down the back lanes its sooo rapid its unbelivable - I think I will just build my big power RWD saff as a lairy toy instead, and convert my T25 escos to p8 with a t34 with WRC antilag best of both worlds then

Fiecos Dan

Surely it will be fine ? as it will bump steer the same amount each way, but the static camber will be different?

as i've set mine to -1.5' camber and 1mm toe in both sides at the rear, that was using Mikes shims and other shims i had.



Mike, i see you run -3' camber on the front, and 1-2mm toe in, but what castor are you running, and have you checked the bump steer on the front or adjusted it?

Mike1

Is the car better now then Martin?

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

I run the caster as close to the Grp A setting of 3°30' as I can get it (which is not far off ). When I have finished modifying the engine / suspension, I will then set it up perfectly, but I keep making small changes (longer drive shafts / Grp A anti-roll bar etc), so it is not worth doing until I have stopped making changes . If needs be, I will fit eccentric top mounts then .

Mike1

Aside from the self centreing effect does running the extra caster on your geometry help maintain the negative camber as you turn in?

zetec69

iTrader: (12)

Sorry if this sounds stupid but when you say 1-2mm toe in does that mean 1-2mm in from the factory settings or 1-2mm in from parallel?

Cheers

Tony Ryan

Yes, additional castor acts as "turn in" only camber , very useful while youre wheels are turning into a corner and then comes back off as you straighten up .

Mike1

Ah, that's what I suspected - that's why they introduced it on the 4dr 2wd

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

From parrallel.

Azrael

In fact it's not true. 300bhp is enough for sideways fun, I can prove OF course it's much easier with lots of torque and power and good throttle responce

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

You have puny standard wheels and tyres with no grip, which always helps .

Azrael

OK - how much for really sticky ones for my OZ Racing wheels? 8x16''



Anyway - on tarmac either you go fast or you go sideways. But you can always try some smooth gravel

Mike I'd love to see you at the Ring in snow

But coming to the pooint - I recently started working for www.4turbo.pl and I drive our company's showcar apart from my "office" duties. It only has 346bhp but it will go sideways with ease on Avon ZZR track-day tyres even though it's set-up for grip-driving. Of course it's a Scoob but I don't see a point why Ford wouldn't do that.

Mike1

Company cars are always easier to get out of shape though...........

Azrael

It's not your avarage company car you know

http://homepage.mac.com/wojnar/.Pict...12884A11DB.jpg

I think I would have to work for couple of years to pay for the damage if something went wrong

Mike1

Looks good - bet driving it is an interesting contrast to your Scort?

Azrael

Mike1 it's much better car in any aspect, but it has cost a LOT to build. Bodyshell is only part left of the original car. It was build as a rally-car for the road, so by ommiting certain regulations (e.g. it has 2.5 litre capacity) it has performance of grp A car of the time and drivebility of standard car (exept for fuel economy and quite short gearing), it even retains aircon.

I have driven many different Scoobs, Evo's and at least 3 diferent Cossies but this is completly different world in terms of performance, handling, stopping power etc. I bet for Mike R it would be slow but for me 340bhp with 555Nmm at just 3400 rpm and WIDE powerband is properly RAPID between the corners. And it reaches 7100 rev limiter in 5th gear in something like 20 seconds with speedo far off the scale (which is to 150mph) .

The best thing is that it can be both treated as pricise tool for tarmac grip driving and you can go sideways if you like anytime you want with VERY easy control. For experienced driver it's nearly as easy as an Evo but gives much more feel that you are the one who's in charge not differential electronics (it only runs 3 classic mechanical LSD's). We also have snow setup with 15'' snow tyres and small brakes for this one.

Escos is 20 times harder to drive fast and want's to kill you every second corner

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

That was YOUR pre-repaired Escort Cosworth, you should find that it is now a pussy-cat .

Azrael

I also driven one that was accident free And most of the rally drivers over here have same opinion as me :-/

"Me: What to expect of Escort Cossie handling?
Rallydriver: Nothing much exept it swapping ends or rear stepping out at most unpredicted moments, apart from that as any other AWD. Oh and it feels huge even though it's so small"



But yes - I expect it should handle better now. If not I'll have to call you for rear beam. Geometry is currently contrary to what you like 0'07 toe out on the rear.