Rich_w

Why? Theres no limit to technology used (AFAIK) just the restrictor. So you can have a car that conforms to the rules, yet makes significantly more than 300BHP.

Ford, Subaru, Citroen, Mitsi etc all know this and Im 95% sure they all do they same.

xr2i-carl

its not all about power tho, this yr f1 cars at some tracks were quicker than last years and there propa down on power!!!


i rekon over a stage then wrc would win

on the 1/4mile group b


carl

Mad Matt

iTrader: (2)

Yes it is like in F1. They are a shitload faster now with the actual tyres than in the slick era, and it isn't all about aerodynamic and engines. But around 2.5sec from 0-100 on gravel I doubt a modern WRC car could do that. The 206 Peugeot could manage 0-100kph in just less than 3.5sec (I heard that in 1999 or 2000) and I doubt they "gained" 1 sec in 5 years especially on a range of 0-100kph.

I still can't belive the 2.5sec for the Delta S4 even if I red it on lot of times.

EscortWRC

But they're not..........they just can't get enough air through the 32mm restrictor to make the big power numbers.

However, they DO have BIG torque numbers in the midrange

Anonymous

...didnt one particular RS200 do 0-60 in 1.8secs?

..Rich W you are led wrong then 500ft/lb torque YES!!

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

Yep it held the 0-60 record for quite some time, a tuned RS200 EVO i believe.

Rich_w

Shush you I may be wrong, though Im sure I read it somewhere that they "somehow" develop lots of power (as well of a shed load of torque) on relatively little air flow - 34mm restrictor. (Im no Turbo expert mind) And the "gents agreement" gains weight when you see ALL the manufs claim exactly 300BHP. Coincidence?

eg
Scooby
Ford


Anyway Phil, if were talking about wrong uns

ian sibbert

You can tell youve never been to scrutineering anywhere in the world...at club level they are like rottweilers...at world level they are even stricter...the cars are checked at the end of each leg for infringements...I think you should ask Ove Anderson about fines from tampering with turbo restictors...

Most the points raised to have some bearing on the current WRC cars but major factors are tyre technology, damper technology, transmission and more to the point gearchange times/semi auto box - launch control, weight distribution, aerodynamics, materials used, the cars themselves as a package are easier to drive which combined with the fittest/best people driving them...you wont see Seb Loab smoking as well as being very committed he is extremely fit....I remember seeing Markko Alen eating fags in service....back in the Grp 'B' days rallys were won on longevity not just speed so you had more chance to catch up...not the case now...

All the wrc cars ive ever seen produce approx 310 bhp with approx 600lbs/ft of torque....as said above similar to the latest grp'n' subaru N12 car

Azrael

Maximum power of restricted car can be calculated from maximum airflow in the restrictor at speed of sound, as this is the limit. The only other oxygen comes form oxygen rich fuel but this is just couple percent of oxygen in fuel, Even if they make 350bhp it won't be much more. It can be seen in fast sections that they don't accelerate well. There is a vid of Panizzi in Pug 206 on Nuerburgring - on longest gearbox the car is pathetically slow, although it stil kills everything arround the corners.

I myself can belive in 2.5 0-100kph of WRC cars as I've seen it done on far less advanced road machine with only ~450bhp with much much worse torque curve etc.

seand

very good response. exactly my thoughts. my best friend has been appointed chief scrutineer for the forthcoming rally ireland.
always remember poor old Ove. Toyota paid heavily for that infringement.
also seb was a top class gymnast as well. he is super fit.
and yes you are right about markku alen. serious man for the cigs!!

Mad Matt

iTrader: (2)

Modern WRC cars are producing over 1000Nm of torque. A guy from Bozian Team (307 WRC) told me this year the car had 1200Nm of torque. Serious source, guys.

Azrael

That sounds a bit too much to me...

wayne thomas

I'm a bit sceptical about numbers of that size, 1200nm is 885lbft.. .. Now 885nm's I'd buy

seand

second that. not when restricted anyway imo

Azrael

With 1200Nm 2 their usual rpm around 3000 they would have much more maximum power then I would ever expect from a restricted car (can someone please calculate that? I'm far too sleepy at the moment). Not even rallycross engines with 45mm restrictors have so much.




EDIT: after little math: 1200Nm@3000 gives you 512bhp! 1200Nm@2500 rpm is still 427bhp. It's far too much. And they have maximum power a but higher then maximum torque so would have to have even more power. This sort of powersis impossible this low even in unrestricted 2 litre engine.

Mad Matt

iTrader: (2)

Well it is what a guy from Bozian Team told me in Corsica this year, and we had a quite long talk about all and nothing and I don't think he told me crap (why should he ?).

I will try to contact a friend that works in F1/WRC world and I will ask him if he knows some things.

You know Azrael, nobody could really belive a 2L turbo engine could go over 800bhp few years ago, and I don't mean crappy engine, but relieable. All is possible, imho.

I will keep you informed.

GARETH T

i believe they thuoght it was more than possible 20 years ago,,, well keith duckworth did

Azrael

As I rtold you - it would mean that WRC has over 500bhp, and that is not realistic with restrictor as it is. Maximum volumetric efficency of th engine is the amount of air flowing through restrictor at the speed of sound.

Completly untrue, remeber F1's with turbos?

EscortWRC

The F1 turbos were restricted in displacement only. Turbo inlet sizes and number of turbos were unrestricted. Nobody really knows exactly how much power those animals made....the Renault dyno went off the scale above about 1400 and they still had 1000 revs left on the tach.

A 32mm restrictor has enough airflow capacity to support just north of 300 hp at the high end of flow. HOWEVER, it supports quite a lot of torque well below the peak power level. This is one of the reasons that they run anti-lag on the cars. There are other reasons as well.

BTW, the 300hp (ballpark) figure is NOT a 'gentleman's agreement' it is a physical limitation based on CFM of airflow through the restrictor.

ian sibbert

I mean to be critical but we actually use a 34mm restictor in WRC....32mm on Grp'n' cars......and 2mm does make some difference

EscortWRC

I"m aware of the difference. I checked the FIA site to find the technical regulations for the cars and was unable to find the restrictor sizes for each class.

I know Group N is 32 and Group A is 34, but I *thought* I remembered reading somewhere that the WRC cars (separate class from Group A) ran 32mm ones as well.

I've been wrong before......this may be another one of those times. Point being, there is still only enough air for just over 300hp in a 34 mm restrictor. I think that the math on the 32 comes up to like 270, but given advanced materials and electronics, I suspect that the factories can come up with 300 by tweaking the 'efficiency' end of the equation just a bit.

msport

32mm restrictor flows air at best maximum ~321hp
34mm restrictor ~363hp, remember these are figures for optimum wheather, humidity and shape of restrictor. Ford MS has reported focus wrc pulling 367bhp on dyno, maybe close to maxed out with a dyno miscalculation? I mean 1% calc.error will add/lose couple of bhp.

NO chance whatsoever wrc engine makes 1200nm not even 1000, 850nm has been reported by mitsubishi team(not works team) but i am sceptic to it.

WRC car beats GrpB anytime as long the road turns, the more, the more to wrc´s advantage.

Lots of silly rumours out there, realitycheck.

Azrael

I know but this was remark on the side - nothing to do with restrictors and rally engines.

A lot of torque - yes, 1000Nm, NO. That's what I ment from the beggining. Post by msport explains things completely.

ian sibbert

Well if it aint i'm going to breach some rules....

No ASAIK and mine certainly has a 34mm sat 50mm from the blades restrictor installed...

I'd have to see some serious evidence to believe those torque figures...the FIA dont create rules without some serious research...control fuel on world event is less enriched than the national fuel we use although the latest turbos have some massive boost pressure......

Keith B

In 1986 F1 engines used to run 5.4 bar boost Now that my friends is pretty mental!
In the later years the boost was limited to keep power figures in check

GARETH T

i would love a drive in a active wrc machine

Azrael

GARETH Tback in 2002 a co-drive in WRC Focus costed something like a 1200 quid over here, so I bet in the left seat the price would be absurd :-(

GARETH T

there goes all hope

ian sibbert

Come and hav a go Gareth....its 1998 spec though....might be a bit too old for ur liking.....

Andreas

Have they changed the circuit in anyway since then? Im trying to compare it with modern cars. FIA GT ie Saleeen, Vipers F550 etc did it in 1:36 in 2003.

capri-rs

havent got a clue.just found that info on the site i linked to.

ohhh just found this on wikipedia

"After the deaths of Senna and Roland Ratzenberger in Imola in 1994, the Estoril track was changed, with a new chicane built in place of the tank curve, as a security measure. Estoril was then considered an unsafe and outdated track, and the last Portuguese Grand Prix was in Estoril on 22 September 1996"

1.18,1 seems a bit optimistic considering the fastest lap in the F1 race that year was 1.20,9 (nigel mansell) but what do i know