Anyone know about bi-wiring speakers?
12-09-2006, 10:48 PM
#41
Audio specialist
Originally Posted by Rick
Doug/Frog - good points.
I hate these audiophile types that think they know what they are doing, they come out with some priceless comments. More current carrying capacity is the only real benefit of bi wiring.
I hate these audiophile types that think they know what they are doing, they come out with some priceless comments. More current carrying capacity is the only real benefit of bi wiring.
my job is a proffesinonal audio engineer, i have been doing this since i was 16 so thats 12 years now, i could put together and audio system for any arena/stadium/venue you ask for, hi-fi is the same principal...source-preamp-poweramp-speakers, ect
i really dont think anyone on this post has come out with any "priceless comments" do you? if so where???
as for the benifts of bi-tri-wireing there are many, mostly exteme electronic reasons as to why its better, and if you read my earlier post i touch on it there, i will give you more info on it if you like?
and the best comment made on this thread is that it will only be as good as its weakest point.....which in theory this relates to everything!
i tell you what....LETS DISCUSS CAPACATIVE RE-ACTANCE in audio???
any clever bods know anything about this and how it affects audio... or directional cables? and how bi-wire prevents capacative re-actance?
13-09-2006, 07:46 AM
#42
Originally Posted by biglee
i tell you what....LETS DISCUSS CAPACATIVE RE-ACTANCE in audio???
any clever bods know anything about this and how it affects audio... or directional cables? and how bi-wire prevents capacative re-actance?
any clever bods know anything about this and how it affects audio... or directional cables? and how bi-wire prevents capacative re-actance?
13-09-2006, 08:17 AM
#43
Audio specialist
Originally Posted by Eagle
Originally Posted by biglee
i tell you what....LETS DISCUSS CAPACATIVE RE-ACTANCE in audio???
any clever bods know anything about this and how it affects audio... or directional cables? and how bi-wire prevents capacative re-actance?
any clever bods know anything about this and how it affects audio... or directional cables? and how bi-wire prevents capacative re-actance?
13-09-2006, 08:26 AM
#44
IIRC the capacitive reactance is an issue because the resistance to flow is altered by sending different frequencies down teh wire to teh capacitor and its handling capacity alters with frequency?
This presumably would be massively improved with Bi Amping AFTER an active crossover so you only sent hi down the high wire and low down teh low wire, something ive never quite understood when it comes to Bi Wiring is that presumably, ona mono amp channel we would fire all frequencies down both cables and then the crossover at each pickup point would filter directly to teh speaker?
This presumably would be massively improved with Bi Amping AFTER an active crossover so you only sent hi down the high wire and low down teh low wire, something ive never quite understood when it comes to Bi Wiring is that presumably, ona mono amp channel we would fire all frequencies down both cables and then the crossover at each pickup point would filter directly to teh speaker?
13-09-2006, 08:49 AM
#46
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
ona mono amp channel we would fire all frequencies down both cables and then the crossover at each pickup point would filter directly to the speaker?
But i still think the cable length and currents we're talking in normal home audio won't justify bothering.
13-09-2006, 09:17 AM
#48
Originally Posted by Joris_FRST
Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
ona mono amp channel we would fire all frequencies down both cables and then the crossover at each pickup point would filter directly to the speaker?
But i still think the cable length and currents we're talking in normal home audio won't justify bothering.
Really? I didnt realise that!
So if we have an amp and a 1 mile run of cable with a crossover at teh end inside a speaker box allowing only 10Khz+ to pass, the 1 mile run of cable will only contain the 10Khz+signal?
13-09-2006, 10:08 PM
#50
Audio specialist
Originally Posted by Joris_FRST
Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
ona mono amp channel we would fire all frequencies down both cables and then the crossover at each pickup point would filter directly to the speaker?
But i still think the cable length and currents we're talking in normal home audio won't justify bothering.
now an active x-over will split the source i/p then send the relitve frequencys to the relitive amps then to the speakers, so therefore creating a much more controlable, stable, cleaner sound... it does this useing usually up to 96 db per octave on a butterworth slope, the reason we dont have active x-overs on all our stupidly fgood quailty gear is for 2 reasons, 1:cost 2: beacuse most people wouldnt have a clue about setting it up and if you should get 1 set of wires wrong it could mean the end of your compression drivers before you have even started...
and the above comment is utter rubbish......Stu you are on the right lines mate,
14-09-2006, 06:58 AM
#52
but if thrush hasn't got an amp that will do bi wiring (i know mine has but i haven't got bi wire speakers 
) whats the point of bying spreakers with that capability?
bridging the terminals at either soruce or speaker is just cheating isn't it?
) whats the point of bying spreakers with that capability?bridging the terminals at either soruce or speaker is just cheating isn't it?
14-09-2006, 08:07 AM
#53
Audio specialist
Originally Posted by dojj
but if thrush hasn't got an amp that will do bi wiring (i know mine has but i haven't got bi wire speakers ) whats the point of bying spreakers with that capability?
bridging the terminals at either soruce or speaker is just cheating isn't it?
) whats the point of bying spreakers with that capability?bridging the terminals at either soruce or speaker is just cheating isn't it?
lets say your speaker is 7ohms overall, most of that ohmage is made up by the bass/mid driver,
the tweeter will be in the region of 32 ohms,
so if you give it its own cable to get its signall from it isnt connected to another driver in the speaker which uses more current than its self, thefore sounding better..
when your amp has bi-wireable terminals on the back of it, they are techincly wired together anyhow, just means you dont have to twist cables together....
bridgeing at the speaker end just means you have to collect your signal from 1 cable and split it there and then...imo it makes enuf difference to make me use 2 sets of wires,
some people will argue its still connected together anyhow....and yes it is, BUT its connected together at the point source, amp o/p which electronicly makes a hell of a difference, i would go into why but im sure people cant be bothered with all that theory...lol
14-09-2006, 08:52 AM
#54
Originally Posted by biglee
i would go into why but im sure people cant be bothered with all that theory...lol
thats what i love about this place .. you learn all sorts of weired stuff 
and i can't remeber it all
14-09-2006, 10:38 AM
#55
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Originally Posted by biglee
and the best comment made on this thread is that it will only be as good as its weakest point.....which in theory this relates to everything!
I mean it's about 10yrs old (or so) but it's not a top range audiophile system - just a "grouped" set of matching seperates, more akin to a midi system really. RRP was only about £300 way back when)
Gold plated directional fuses however
14-09-2006, 02:51 PM
#58
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Originally Posted by biglee
i have a tri-wire system and 3 power amps and an active x-over, so i have full control over everything, all the amps are naime and the active system was built by xta, and after having loads of systems and at one time being a complete purest this one is by far the best,
sounds like a very nice set up, which Naim amps did you go for?
14-09-2006, 06:08 PM
#60
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Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by Guinnless
Can't answer for Lee but I've heard active DBLs on the end of three NAP250s.
If I ever come into a bit of money I'll find another pair and give it a go
14-09-2006, 06:13 PM
#61
heard these abut 3 weeks ago
http://www.wilson-benesch.com/chimera/chimera.html
very smooth sound .. loved em .. the walked away very quickly after seeing the £9,200.00 price
http://www.wilson-benesch.com/chimera/chimera.html
very smooth sound .. loved em .. the walked away very quickly after seeing the £9,200.00 price
14-09-2006, 06:56 PM
#62
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
Originally Posted by Matt J
Originally Posted by Guinnless
Can't answer for Lee but I've heard active DBLs on the end of three NAP250s.
If I ever come into a bit of money I'll find another pair and give it a go
14-09-2006, 10:11 PM
#63
Audio specialist
Originally Posted by Matt J
Originally Posted by biglee
i have a tri-wire system and 3 power amps and an active x-over, so i have full control over everything, all the amps are naime and the active system was built by xta, and after having loads of systems and at one time being a complete purest this one is by far the best,
sounds like a very nice set up, which Naim amps did you go for?
anyone who wants to listen is more than welcome to come round for a coffe/tea ect....
oh and as for price, nait 5's are 1600 each and the xta active system was 3k,
the audiophile amps were bout 150 quid each and i spent 600 quid on upgrading each one
16-09-2006, 02:47 AM
#64
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Originally Posted by Guinnless
Out of interest what did you replace the bariks with? They're such a unique loudspeaker!
Wasnt really a case of replacing, I sold them for financial reasons, needed some cash quick and I couldnt think of anything else to sell
I've now got a pair of Spendor S3/5se's, they are excellent monitors, lack a bit of bass but more than make up for it with vocal presentation!
16-09-2006, 04:43 AM
#65
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
Originally Posted by Matt J
Originally Posted by Guinnless
Out of interest what did you replace the bariks with? They're such a unique loudspeaker!
Wasnt really a case of replacing, I sold them for financial reasons, needed some cash quick and I couldnt think of anything else to sell
I've now got a pair of Spendor S3/5se's, they are excellent monitors, lack a bit of bass but more than make up for it with vocal presentation!
Aah that makes sense now. Sorry you had to sell them
Glad you are hapy with the Spendors though
16-09-2006, 06:46 AM
#66
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Originally Posted by Matt J
I've now got a pair of Spendor S3/5se's, they are excellent monitors, lack a bit of bass but more than make up for it with vocal presentation!
You have PM.
Doug.
16-09-2006, 01:00 PM
#67
Originally Posted by biglee
Originally Posted by dojj
but if thrush hasn't got an amp that will do bi wiring (i know mine has but i haven't got bi wire speakers ) whats the point of bying spreakers with that capability?
bridging the terminals at either soruce or speaker is just cheating isn't it?
) whats the point of bying spreakers with that capability?bridging the terminals at either soruce or speaker is just cheating isn't it?
lets say your speaker is 7ohms overall, most of that ohmage is made up by the bass/mid driver,
the tweeter will be in the region of 32 ohms,
so if you give it its own cable to get its signall from it isnt connected to another driver in the speaker which uses more current than its self, thefore sounding better..
when your amp has bi-wireable terminals on the back of it, they are techincly wired together anyhow, just means you dont have to twist cables together....
bridgeing at the speaker end just means you have to collect your signal from 1 cable and split it there and then...imo it makes enuf difference to make me use 2 sets of wires,
some people will argue its still connected together anyhow....and yes it is, BUT its connected together at the point source, amp o/p which electronicly makes a hell of a difference, i would go into why but im sure people cant be bothered with all that theory...lol
but the rest of it made perfect sense
one quesiton though, why are you using so many amps?
how many outputs do you need if you've only got the basics of having a, for example, 5.1 or thereabouts surround sound system?
16-09-2006, 01:16 PM
#68
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that will be a purely 2 channel system for music at a guess dojj, 5.1 and surround are a bit of a no no with proper music listeners, purely for visual stuff not hi-fi.
multiple amps means you can have 1 amp to do a specific job rather than have 1 amp do the lot.
I have 2 mono power amps, 1 for each speaker gives a better sound than 1 for both (price depending of course, a single 2 channel amp could give better results, I just wouldnt be able to afford it)
Lee's setup is awesome and I'd love to cath a listen to it sometime
multiple amps means you can have 1 amp to do a specific job rather than have 1 amp do the lot.
I have 2 mono power amps, 1 for each speaker gives a better sound than 1 for both (price depending of course, a single 2 channel amp could give better results, I just wouldnt be able to afford it)
Lee's setup is awesome and I'd love to cath a listen to it sometime
16-09-2006, 01:29 PM
#69
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Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by biglee
Originally Posted by Matt J
Originally Posted by biglee
i have a tri-wire system and 3 power amps and an active x-over, so i have full control over everything, all the amps are naime and the active system was built by xta, and after having loads of systems and at one time being a complete purest this one is by far the best,
sounds like a very nice set up, which Naim amps did you go for?
anyone who wants to listen is more than welcome to come round for a coffe/tea ect....
oh and as for price, nait 5's are 1600 each and the xta active system was 3k,
the audiophile amps were bout 150 quid each and i spent 600 quid on upgrading each one
usually nap 250's or 135's that people use to bi/tri amp speakers, bit like this;
http://www.mickandviv.com/pfm/Isobarik_System.pdf
you would still have to spend multiple K's to better that setup today, and all in the early 80's
no matter how many latest ipod/bose/b+o designed fashion boxes come and go, good hi-fi hasnt changed in a good while and you can get some awesome sound for little money these days if you know what you're looking for
The same way as you still cant better vinyl reproduction, all the latest forms of music compression sound like garbage, DAB, MP3's etc
17-09-2006, 09:31 AM
#70
i suppose if you are into your music then you won't mind paying for your system to be set up to what you want to listen to
me on the other hand, just like listening to the stuff thats coming out of the speakers being what i'm watching on the telly
me on the other hand, just like listening to the stuff thats coming out of the speakers being what i'm watching on the telly
17-09-2006, 04:18 PM
#71
Don't get me wrong, I am big on music, always have been, and as such I typically demand a "better" grade of reproduction of music than your average Joe, but I am not what you might call an audiophile, so I am not particlary anal about it. Plus I simply couldn't afford to be if I wanted to lol....
But the idea behind these speakers was 2 fold : 1) I know they can sound great in the right room set up on a decent amp, and primarily they were bought for playing back 2ch Stereo music, and 2) they, when mixed with suitable surround/centre speakers, can work really well as part of a 5.1 AV system aswell.
But the idea behind these speakers was 2 fold : 1) I know they can sound great in the right room set up on a decent amp, and primarily they were bought for playing back 2ch Stereo music, and 2) they, when mixed with suitable surround/centre speakers, can work really well as part of a 5.1 AV system aswell.
18-09-2006, 01:32 AM
#72
Audio specialist
Originally Posted by Matt J
Originally Posted by biglee
Originally Posted by Matt J
Originally Posted by biglee
i have a tri-wire system and 3 power amps and an active x-over, so i have full control over everything, all the amps are naime and the active system was built by xta, and after having loads of systems and at one time being a complete purest this one is by far the best,
sounds like a very nice set up, which Naim amps did you go for?
anyone who wants to listen is more than welcome to come round for a coffe/tea ect....
oh and as for price, nait 5's are 1600 each and the xta active system was 3k,
the audiophile amps were bout 150 quid each and i spent 600 quid on upgrading each one
usually nap 250's or 135's that people use to bi/tri amp speakers, bit like this;
http://www.mickandviv.com/pfm/Isobarik_System.pdf
you would still have to spend multiple K's to better that setup today, and all in the early 80's
no matter how many latest ipod/bose/b+o designed fashion boxes come and go, good hi-fi hasnt changed in a good while and you can get some awesome sound for little money these days if you know what you're looking for
The same way as you still cant better vinyl reproduction, all the latest forms of music compression sound like garbage, DAB, MP3's etc
the nait seires did make power amps but they were specalist items obtained by order only...i think you can still get them, 40x40watts twin mono blocks, class A hot mos-fet, bit to clinical for me tho...lol
you should hear some of the systems i set up mate in fact im doing a UK tour starting soon if you feel like listening to one of my big systems,lol
77kW of audio in a big old room is quite a sound mate...lol
18-09-2006, 07:43 AM
#73
Originally Posted by biglee
you should hear some of the systems i set up mate in fact im doing a UK tour starting soon if you feel like listening to one of my big systems,lol
77kW of audio in a big old room is quite a sound mate...lol
77kW of audio in a big old room is quite a sound mate...lol
18-09-2006, 09:42 AM
#74
Audio specialist
Originally Posted by Eagle
Originally Posted by biglee
you should hear some of the systems i set up mate in fact im doing a UK tour starting soon if you feel like listening to one of my big systems,lol
77kW of audio in a big old room is quite a sound mate...lol
77kW of audio in a big old room is quite a sound mate...lol
if you have never seen a monster system put together and you are in to audio, its quite interesting....lol
18-09-2006, 10:17 AM
#76
Audio specialist
Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
Hey, if your ever local id be well interested to see/hear this.
18-09-2006, 06:21 PM
#78
Audio specialist
Originally Posted by Matt J
I'd be well up for that Lee, would love to have a nose around a proper system
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