Jim Green

I'm sure this topic has been discussed recently, but I'm looking for the way ahead.

While I'm here working in the USA, I can buy Greddy Protec B 2 units for $350 US Dollars (Under Two Hunded Quid). Things are so much cheaper over here.

So to start off with, How much are they being sold back home for (In the UK).

Secondly : Are they as good as a set of air injectors .... Becuase they're a damned site cheaper.

I appreciate that to work properly, they're gonna need mapping in, but so would air injectors.

This Protec unit appears to be most people favorite at the moment, as it's basic but fulfills all the needs of most of us cossie owners.

Any advice on weather it's worth using this over traditional air injectors, and are they as easy to fit as they appear to be.

If this price is a big saving over the UK price, then I may be able to get them cheaper if I buy a load (Presently speaking to one of the suppliers but need some definate order numbers).

If I did buy a load (On behalf of anyone on this web site) Then I would not be able to give any garentees as to what the Customs Man would want to charge if he decides to check the package when it arrived in UK.

FAO KARL : Would you be happy with one of these on my engine ?????? And of course you'd be doing the mapping.

Regards Jim

GARETH T

i dont really like them but they do what its says on the box
reason i dont like them is that my ecu which is controlling the rest of my car wouldnt be controlling a very important factor of how my engine is running

Rs Gus

iTrader: (2)

air-air for me im afraid all mapped by msd ta

Jim Green

GARETH & GUS : Hear what your saying guys, but arn't we falling behind in technology, and maybe sticking too much with the old'e school stuff.

Every Man and his dog over here in the USA is using electronic boost controllers......... They threw away air injectors 5 years ago. Just pick up any (DECENT) US tuning magazine, and see the power these guys are getting from 16valve 2.0 turbo engine, for half the money it's costing us. They're using up to date electronics and management systems, at half the cost of what we buy them for in the uk.

The mechanical part of the engine is just the same as ours, but the extra power, reliability, is all down to modern day electronic management systems and using the latest technology (Ie Electronic Boost Controllers).

Is this maybe why we're getting left behind so often............

Not slagging Air Injectors, I know they work very well, but when an electronic boost controller can do the job just as well, (If not a damned site better) for less than half the price............ Makes you think why the hell should I pay Four Hundred Quid Plus, for an air injector set up when I can do the same job for Two Hundred Quid.........

Just trying to see why I need to justify spending twice the price for air injectors.

GARETH T

old school?? 10 psi held was 10 psi held back in the 80's

i dont know what ecu you are using jim, but if its not an large turbo esccos one (which is the only one with closed loop boost control i think) then i wouldnt really mind about putting a boost controller on

Rs Gus

iTrader: (2)

but they are a stand alone unit so have no corespondance with the euc as i understand it!

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

I personally like em and will go into more detail later when ive got some food and beer inside my cold wet self......

Rene

please do stuk cause i am interested

Jim Green

Thanks Stu........... I'm no engine designer/tuner etc, but I was a diesel fitter for ten years.

The point I'm trying to get across is :

Why spend 400 Pounds (Is this about the going rate for a air injector kit) on an air injector set up. Which I admit is a perfect piece of kit, which is capable of doing the job 100% correctly when mapped.

When I can spend half the amount of money, and buy some newer technology, which will also do the job 100% correctly when mapped, but in addition has some additional features and can hold more than one boost curve.

Like I said I'm not too up on air injectors or electronic boost controllers. But I know what they do, and I need one or the other for my new engine. One costs half the price of the other, and they both are capable of doing the job. So I'm trying to justify why I need to spend twice the amount of money, for something which is older technology.

PLEASE NOTE : I HAVEN'T SLAGGED OF ANYONE OR ANYTHING, NOR HAVE I SAID ONE WORKS BETTER THAN THE OTHER. I LEAVE THAT TO THE EXPERTS

GARETH T

one problem with boost controllers is people like to play! not saying you will,, but you must think its tempting

Stavros

No different to people with mappable ECUs (T2/T6/Autronic/Motec etc) and a laptop to hand!

Infact its no different to people twisting the bleedvalve or winding in the actuator!

It seems the "normal" thing to do on Skylines in the UK to play with and adjust Apexi PowerFC managment yourself, a lot of people seem to totaly set them up themselfs (they come with a hand controller to do the mapping on) purely by the readings on the Knock sensors (Skylines have 2 as standard and mate directly to PowerFC)

Then people wonder why they blow up, tossers.

I know someone who bought a R32GTR running 1.2bar and the day he got it adjusted the boost to 2bar on the boost controller and blew it to bits

Dickheads, leave your stuff alone if you dunno what you doing!

GARETH T

i know, and i know someone very well who falls into that bracket

Jim Green

GARETH : I'm still running a L6 ECU. I know what you mean about people playing with the boost after it's been set up. Not for me though, whatever it was set at it by my tuner, it would stay at.

Come on Stu, were all waiting with baited breath here.

Oh and Karl you can jump in when your ready, coz you'll be mappin it

Jim Green

What price is the GREDDY PROTEC B 2 Selling for back in good old'e England a the moment. All I know about this unit, is that it's a no frills reliable unit and I think a couple of guys on this web site have used it in preference to the Apex units...........

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Ok,
Electronic boost control is in fact closed loop on "Most" controllers which in many ways makes them BETTER than air injectors.

What they do for the uninitiated is they add a high speed solenoid or air pressure valve into the boost signal line. They then monitor the boost output via an inbuilt map sensor and apply various frequencies to the valve to make the wastegate produce the boost pressure that you asked it to...

IE:
Type 20psi into the controller and she will run just that.. 20psi.
The best part is, if your actuator goes weak, she will STILL run 20psi and if its a cold damp night, she will STILL run 20psi.

Air injectors cannot do this unfortunately and simply pulse the valve at a preset frequency at a preset RPM.

The small downside?
Ive personally yet to see one that can reliably handle 30psi having tested 2 and both failed with large peaks at scary and unpredictable times.
(I do however believe that new units to the market are better in this 2bar+respect but i havent tested one so cant comment)

The other impressive feature is of course the gear selectable/engine speed/overboost selectable boost control, but beware, many of these features require serious wiring and mods to work on a cossie ad they are lacking the digital gear and speed selection outputs of their high tech japanese counterparts.

Major downside for me as a professional?
FAr too easy for morons to twiddle the front mounted "Gain/Volume" control during the heat of the moment race.. destroy the engine and give it back and blame me.
"Honest pal, i didnt touch it.. was just doing 40mph in 5th when the crank fell out without warning"

I hope this helps.

GARETH T

yes most are closed loop control for boost, but not for the full system

JAP CRAP

EscortCosworthUSA

I've been toying with the idea of the electronic boost control too - my amal valve seems to not be working right now, no matter what I try. My boost also varies alot. Is there a setup that would control boost at different rpm levels that doesn't have all the graph monitors and all the other fancy things that are not needed? My ecu map was to run 27.1 and fall off to 16.5 or so.

I know air injectors are the norm, especially on the rally cars - but these are not common in the USA.

Karl

Hi Jim,

I'm affraid I'm with Stu on this. I really do like these boost controllers BUT, and its a big BUT, I've yet to fine one that copes with holding boost levels of 30psi upwards.

So personally for now keep with air injectors, OR if you're still undecided I can map T4's on an amal valve well enough to work perfectly well. (It's all in the jetting folks, so anyone who says it can't be done is wrong!!)

Rick

The closed loop is the thing that got me interested - my biggest worry was indeed that my ickle v low comp 1600 is going to be running a shit load of boost - so will it take it? Stu - u tested an Apexi AVC R? Thats what i was looking into - if not i'll get one fitted, sort our the speed signals etc and then come up, we'll fit the cheapo ecm and have a play lol

Rick

And - Karl - u gonna sort me out with a chip so u can setup my car I NEED to take her on boost

Karl

Rick, send your ecu to uncle Tony, tell him I sent you and that you want my usual unlimited 7200rpm low comp map.

sunny

iTrader: (1)

You need to try what I use then (eBOOST)....it can happily cope with 60psi no problems if need be. My old HKS EVC4 was good for what it was but over 2bar....forget it.

Thanks - Sunny.

Karl

sunny, could you pm or email me a link for more info on this controller? Thanks,

Rick

lol - how did i know u were going to say that I heard that tea bag has one of the only ancient programmers that can handle the jurrasic motorola

Can solder the chip in myself so saves taking out my ECU. What sort of price he charge mate?

Karl

Dont do the soldering yourself. Just send the ecu direct to tony along with the fuel ecu and let Tony sort it out. Can't remember Tony's retail price off top of head but its around Ł250.

Rick

Karl - thats the turbosmart one rated at 60psi
http://www.tweakit.net/shop/product_...6f13329abd4cb5

Rick

Ok cool, wll give him a call. My Fuel ECU is already modded and am the daddy at soldering (unless it's one of those 17 pins per mm IC's then my shonky solder station shits itself )

sunny

iTrader: (1)

No worries mate.

see below :-





Website is www.turbosmart.com.au

HTH

Thanks - Sunny.

Karl

Cheers sunny.

Rick, I don't doubt you can solder the chip in, but in terms of if theres a fault with the ecu or chip, rather that Tony has done all the work than arguing over whos fault it was. (For the sake of a few quid)

Rick

Karl - good point well put

Stavros

Quality writup Sunny, im sold, that one will do me nicely

Rick

Nice bit of kit eh

Fastmaul

I too like the Electronic boost controllers, they tested a couple of them a while back and the Greddy Profec gave the best responce, and helped make better HP! I forgot which one, but it's the one with the little screen.

foreigneRS

i am interested in one Jim, if you manage to sort a group buy. 200 quid would be a nice price.

as gareth says, it's all well and good having a closed loop boost controller, but it's better ifit's incorporated into the ecu. but while still running weber, what can you do? in that case. these seem like a good thing.

but 200 quid? a SECS S8 has closed loop boost control i believe and costs just 2 or 3 times more.

St3V3_C

Cheapest I have seen for profec spec II is Ł295 over here.

I got mine in the states for 295 DOLLARS - so shop around mate. This was, however, just over a year ago.

HTH

Porkie

iTrader: (1)

I have one, you can test mine this weekend

Air injectors, loom and 12 position boost pot still for sale.... unless it doesn't work!

St3V3_C

quick search for $315...

http://optionimports.com/grprbspiielb.html

or $320 with free shipping

http://www.prostreetonline.com/buy/g...c_ii/15500209/

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

How can any man turn down an offer like that?

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Stu,
You forgot the other downside of these electronic controllers - quite a lot of them do not "failsafe", i.e. if the power supply to them fails for any reason (or someone switches the power off by mistake), instead of reverting to the lowest boost setting, you get UNLIMITED boost .

Also, as it clearly says it cannot perform miracles and can only operate within the limits of your turbo, so don't expect it to be able to bring a T4 on boost from 1000 rpm or for a T3 to hold 30psi at 7k .