AP's bad??? topic on MLR
10-05-2006, 10:29 AM
#1
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AP's bad??? topic on MLR
a lot off guys saying APs judder.....
what's the PF brake thing...a lot of guys saying PF is very good...never heard of it...
i dont hear a bad thing about AP on passionford....
are the MLR boys driving like lunatics....or do we drive to slow with our AP stuff....
http://www.lancerregister.com/showth...hreadid=109533
what's the PF brake thing...a lot of guys saying PF is very good...never heard of it...
i dont hear a bad thing about AP on passionford....
are the MLR boys driving like lunatics....or do we drive to slow with our AP stuff....
http://www.lancerregister.com/showth...hreadid=109533
10-05-2006, 10:38 AM
#4
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Originally Posted by DaveEscos
I dont think you'll hear anyone on PF slagging them off
they cost so much, no ones going to moan if they're shit!
they cost so much, no ones going to moan if they're shit!
but what are PF brakes then...
10-05-2006, 10:46 AM
#6
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PF = Performance Friction : http://www.performancefriction.com/
Personally I think AP's are over-rated although thats not to say they are bad brakes, just think a lot of people are blinkered; don't always see what else is available and just automatically go for AP's.
Personally I think AP's are over-rated although thats not to say they are bad brakes, just think a lot of people are blinkered; don't always see what else is available and just automatically go for AP's.
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10-05-2006, 11:44 AM
#9
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In my opinion the brake judder comes from the Brembo calipers themselves, once warm I get judder, when cold the brakes are fine.
This suggests the brakes discs are fine, but the Brembos have a tendency to overheat and somehow warp. After getting thrashed around the NS (for a few minutes before they started to judder), my discs were showing extremely uneven wear, basically the middle of the disc was shiny and the rest dull. I had thought the pads had broken apart, but upon inspection, everything was fine. Since then there is a creaking noise under braking, suggesting flex in the calipers themselves.
That was enough for me to decide on a new setup - and AP's seemed the logical choice, they also get a lot of good reviews, and many race cars use them.
Just think how many people use AP's - hundreds. Obviously some people will experience problems.
Now how many people run say Movits on their Evo? Under 10 I expect. If one of them was likely to have a problem, would they complain loudly? Maybe not. Even if they did, it's still only one person and their experience, quickly dismissed by the other 9
Be aware that PF only make pads and rotors, and I doubt very much that the products they produce are significantly more advanced than the likes of AP, Pagid, Ferodo or any other brake supplier with a motorsport department.
This suggests the brakes discs are fine, but the Brembos have a tendency to overheat and somehow warp. After getting thrashed around the NS (for a few minutes before they started to judder), my discs were showing extremely uneven wear, basically the middle of the disc was shiny and the rest dull. I had thought the pads had broken apart, but upon inspection, everything was fine. Since then there is a creaking noise under braking, suggesting flex in the calipers themselves.
That was enough for me to decide on a new setup - and AP's seemed the logical choice, they also get a lot of good reviews, and many race cars use them.
Just think how many people use AP's - hundreds. Obviously some people will experience problems.
Now how many people run say Movits on their Evo? Under 10 I expect. If one of them was likely to have a problem, would they complain loudly? Maybe not. Even if they did, it's still only one person and their experience, quickly dismissed by the other 9
Be aware that PF only make pads and rotors, and I doubt very much that the products they produce are significantly more advanced than the likes of AP, Pagid, Ferodo or any other brake supplier with a motorsport department.
10-05-2006, 12:02 PM
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Gary @ APT has AP's on his Evo and they are so good it feels as if your eyes are going to ripped out of their sockets. He has never complained about them on the track either.
10-05-2006, 12:17 PM
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Have run a set of cp5200's 4 pots and 330mm discs on my RWD sgt 3 sapphire, a lot of my mates run similar set ups, and I don't think anyone has ever had anything apart from 110% performance out of them 
Mine get hammered every time I drive the car, and have had no probs at all. Pad choice is as ever, critcal though, the green stuff pads they came with were utter wank 
, a set of frodo ds pads made them much better.
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10-05-2006, 01:24 PM
#15
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Originally Posted by Kev.H
Brembo r better than AP arents they ? and dont Brembo own AP
Think how many super cars now run brembos in disguise
Think how many super cars now run brembos in disguise
i think Brembo and AP are the same when it comes to quality...i guess..
10-05-2006, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by wimwerf
Originally Posted by Kev.H
Brembo r better than AP arents they ? and dont Brembo own AP
Think how many super cars now run brembos in disguise
Think how many super cars now run brembos in disguise
i think Brembo and AP are the same when it comes to quality...i guess..
ie McLaren SLR, MC12, Enzo & Enzo FXX and I think also the Veyron
10-05-2006, 08:58 PM
#17
Originally Posted by ON-UJAH
In my opinion the brake judder comes from the Brembo calipers themselves, once warm I get judder, when cold the brakes are fine.
10-05-2006, 09:11 PM
#18
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Just to avoid confusion, I run an Evo 5 with the standard setup (Brembos). Quite a few people at the Ring took a look at the brakes, me and StevenRW had the pads out in the morning, and like I say, when cold to warm they are fine - good braking, no judder.
But once warmed up, they start juddering - and not just a little! You cannot hold the wheel straight, and braking power is about halved.
The strange creaking sound was witnessed by many people on the forum, and very slight flex during braking can be felt, which obviously should not happen with 4-pots. A few suggestions were the shims on the back of the pads, or the calipers themselves creaking. It was certainly something that noone had experienced before.
The difference in the face of the front disc is still noticable, I'll take a picture.
Apparently this is a known problem on the V and VI, which is why everyone is looking for a solution to the judder. If you read the MLR post, you'll see that PF themselfes had rotors sent back due to juddering, only to find they were fine.
So, the brake juddering must be coming from elsewhere - in my case I suspect the calipers. I can't see any other part of the system which would cause the problem, only when warm - but if you have any suggestions, I'd be glad to hear them and will investigate further.
But once warmed up, they start juddering - and not just a little! You cannot hold the wheel straight, and braking power is about halved.
The strange creaking sound was witnessed by many people on the forum, and very slight flex during braking can be felt, which obviously should not happen with 4-pots. A few suggestions were the shims on the back of the pads, or the calipers themselves creaking. It was certainly something that noone had experienced before.
The difference in the face of the front disc is still noticable, I'll take a picture.
Apparently this is a known problem on the V and VI, which is why everyone is looking for a solution to the judder. If you read the MLR post, you'll see that PF themselfes had rotors sent back due to juddering, only to find they were fine.
So, the brake juddering must be coming from elsewhere - in my case I suspect the calipers. I can't see any other part of the system which would cause the problem, only when warm - but if you have any suggestions, I'd be glad to hear them and will investigate further.
10-05-2006, 09:21 PM
#19
Originally Posted by ON-UJAH
Just to avoid confusion, I run an Evo 5 with the standard setup (Brembos). Quite a few people at the Ring took a look at the brakes, me and StevenRW had the pads out in the morning, and like I say, when cold to warm they are fine - good braking, no judder.
But once warmed up, they start juddering - and not just a little! You cannot hold the wheel straight, and braking power is about halved.
The strange creaking sound was witnessed by many people on the forum, and very slight flex during braking can be felt, which obviously should not happen with 4-pots. A few suggestions were the shims on the back of the pads, or the calipers themselves creaking. It was certainly something that noone had experienced before.
The difference in the face of the front disc is still noticable, I'll take a picture.
Apparently this is a known problem on the V and VI, which is why everyone is looking for a solution to the judder. If you read the MLR post, you'll see that PF themselfes had rotors sent back due to juddering, only to find they were fine.
So, the brake juddering must be coming from elsewhere - in my case I suspect the calipers. I can't see any other part of the system which would cause the problem, only when warm - but if you have any suggestions, I'd be glad to hear them and will investigate further.
But once warmed up, they start juddering - and not just a little! You cannot hold the wheel straight, and braking power is about halved.
The strange creaking sound was witnessed by many people on the forum, and very slight flex during braking can be felt, which obviously should not happen with 4-pots. A few suggestions were the shims on the back of the pads, or the calipers themselves creaking. It was certainly something that noone had experienced before.
The difference in the face of the front disc is still noticable, I'll take a picture.
Apparently this is a known problem on the V and VI, which is why everyone is looking for a solution to the judder. If you read the MLR post, you'll see that PF themselfes had rotors sent back due to juddering, only to find they were fine.
So, the brake juddering must be coming from elsewhere - in my case I suspect the calipers. I can't see any other part of the system which would cause the problem, only when warm - but if you have any suggestions, I'd be glad to hear them and will investigate further.
10-05-2006, 10:41 PM
#21
Originally Posted by Kev.H
Originally Posted by wimwerf
Originally Posted by Kev.H
Brembo r better than AP arents they ? and dont Brembo own AP
Think how many super cars now run brembos in disguise
Think how many super cars now run brembos in disguise
i think Brembo and AP are the same when it comes to quality...i guess..
ie McLaren SLR, MC12, Enzo & Enzo FXX and I think also the Veyron
sure i saw a caliper on AP's stand at autosport that said bugatti veyron on it...
10-05-2006, 11:01 PM
#23
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I had the Reyland Ap vauxhall kit on my nova and they were awesoem and NEVER let me down on any trackday or the serious use they got at the ring.
My mate does run 330mm Ap's on his 3 door and it seems to eat brakes on any track day, no idea why as I've been told its very unusual but I know it pisses him off as there Ł350 for a set of rotors which makes track days damn expensive .
Any ideas what could cause them to warp so quick ? and before anyone asks yes he does do a steady warm up lap and cool down lap.
My mate does run 330mm Ap's on his 3 door and it seems to eat brakes on any track day, no idea why as I've been told its very unusual but I know it pisses him off as there Ł350 for a set of rotors which makes track days damn expensive .
Any ideas what could cause them to warp so quick ? and before anyone asks yes he does do a steady warm up lap and cool down lap.
11-05-2006, 09:04 AM
#24
Originally Posted by JonnyBravo
I had the Reyland Ap vauxhall kit on my nova and they were awesoem and NEVER let me down on any trackday or the serious use they got at the ring.
My mate does run 330mm Ap's on his 3 door and it seems to eat brakes on any track day, no idea why as I've been told its very unusual but I know it pisses him off as there Ł350 for a set of rotors which makes track days damn expensive .
Any ideas what could cause them to warp so quick ? and before anyone asks yes he does do a steady warm up lap and cool down lap.
My mate does run 330mm Ap's on his 3 door and it seems to eat brakes on any track day, no idea why as I've been told its very unusual but I know it pisses him off as there Ł350 for a set of rotors which makes track days damn expensive .
Any ideas what could cause them to warp so quick ? and before anyone asks yes he does do a steady warm up lap and cool down lap.
. I had the same problem, I went through THREE sets of rear discs to one set of PF pads (and even THEN they were only half worn ). When I fitted the current new discs, I binned the PF pads and fitted DS3000s - no more disc wear .
11-05-2006, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by martin-reyland
Originally Posted by ON-UJAH
Just to avoid confusion, I run an Evo 5 with the standard setup (Brembos). Quite a few people at the Ring took a look at the brakes, me and StevenRW had the pads out in the morning, and like I say, when cold to warm they are fine - good braking, no judder.
But once warmed up, they start juddering - and not just a little! You cannot hold the wheel straight, and braking power is about halved.
The strange creaking sound was witnessed by many people on the forum, and very slight flex during braking can be felt, which obviously should not happen with 4-pots. A few suggestions were the shims on the back of the pads, or the calipers themselves creaking. It was certainly something that noone had experienced before.
The difference in the face of the front disc is still noticable, I'll take a picture.
Apparently this is a known problem on the V and VI, which is why everyone is looking for a solution to the judder. If you read the MLR post, you'll see that PF themselfes had rotors sent back due to juddering, only to find they were fine.
So, the brake juddering must be coming from elsewhere - in my case I suspect the calipers. I can't see any other part of the system which would cause the problem, only when warm - but if you have any suggestions, I'd be glad to hear them and will investigate further.
But once warmed up, they start juddering - and not just a little! You cannot hold the wheel straight, and braking power is about halved.
The strange creaking sound was witnessed by many people on the forum, and very slight flex during braking can be felt, which obviously should not happen with 4-pots. A few suggestions were the shims on the back of the pads, or the calipers themselves creaking. It was certainly something that noone had experienced before.
The difference in the face of the front disc is still noticable, I'll take a picture.
Apparently this is a known problem on the V and VI, which is why everyone is looking for a solution to the judder. If you read the MLR post, you'll see that PF themselfes had rotors sent back due to juddering, only to find they were fine.
So, the brake juddering must be coming from elsewhere - in my case I suspect the calipers. I can't see any other part of the system which would cause the problem, only when warm - but if you have any suggestions, I'd be glad to hear them and will investigate further.
11-05-2006, 01:10 PM
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So why is the judder only when warm? Surely warped discs would be spotted when cold too? Once warm it is truly terrible. Absolutely undriveable. And why are the pads fine, but the discs showing uneven pad contact after heavy use?
I do know that Mitsubishi/Brembo made revisions for the VI calipers, and then to the VII which again got revised calipers. So they may have been aware of the problem.
Anyway, it's just what I suspect. I never said modern Brembos were bad, I've driven a FRS and they were fine. Brembo own AP anyway, AFAIK.
My Evo is also fine, for day to day driving.
But the thread started due to a discussion about Evo Brembos and if AP's were also prone to judder.
Many people here (Germany) use Porsche 2-piece discs on their Evos, and they are also getting judder.
PF had discs sent back, due to judder, and found no problems with the discs.
I thought about all the options after numerous discussions, and came to the conclusion, that an AP 6-pot setup would be the best way to finally have brakes up to the job. Obviously I may yet experience problems, time will tell.
I do know that Mitsubishi/Brembo made revisions for the VI calipers, and then to the VII which again got revised calipers. So they may have been aware of the problem.
Anyway, it's just what I suspect. I never said modern Brembos were bad, I've driven a FRS and they were fine. Brembo own AP anyway, AFAIK.
My Evo is also fine, for day to day driving.
But the thread started due to a discussion about Evo Brembos and if AP's were also prone to judder.
Many people here (Germany) use Porsche 2-piece discs on their Evos, and they are also getting judder.
PF had discs sent back, due to judder, and found no problems with the discs.
I thought about all the options after numerous discussions, and came to the conclusion, that an AP 6-pot setup would be the best way to finally have brakes up to the job. Obviously I may yet experience problems, time will tell.
11-05-2006, 05:01 PM
#34
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Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Originally Posted by JonnyBravo
I had the Reyland Ap vauxhall kit on my nova and they were awesoem and NEVER let me down on any trackday or the serious use they got at the ring.
My mate does run 330mm Ap's on his 3 door and it seems to eat brakes on any track day, no idea why as I've been told its very unusual but I know it pisses him off as there Ł350 for a set of rotors which makes track days damn expensive .
Any ideas what could cause them to warp so quick ? and before anyone asks yes he does do a steady warm up lap and cool down lap.
My mate does run 330mm Ap's on his 3 door and it seems to eat brakes on any track day, no idea why as I've been told its very unusual but I know it pisses him off as there Ł350 for a set of rotors which makes track days damn expensive .
Any ideas what could cause them to warp so quick ? and before anyone asks yes he does do a steady warm up lap and cool down lap.
. I had the same problem, I went through THREE sets of rear discs to one set of PF pads (and even THEN they were only half worn ). When I fitted the current new discs, I binned the PF pads and fitted DS3000s - no more disc wear .
Just real unlucky I guess
11-05-2006, 06:22 PM
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11-05-2006, 07:58 PM
#37
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Regardless of pad composition, if both disc and pad are not properly broken in, material transfer between the two materials can take place in a random fashion - resulting is uneven deposits and vibration under braking. Similarly, even if the brakes are properly broken, if, when they are very hot or following a single long stop from high speed, the brakes are kept applied after the vehicle comes to a complete stop it is possible to leave a telltale deposit behind that looks like the outline of a pad. This kind of deposit is called pad imprinting and looks like the pad was inked for printing like a stamp and then set on the disc face
It gets worse. Cast iron is an alloy of iron and silicon in solution interspersed with particles of carbon. At elevated temperatures, inclusions of carbides begin to form in the matrix. In the case of the brake disk, any uneven deposits - standing proud of the disc surface - become hotter than the surrounding metal. Every time that the leading edge of one of the deposits rotates into contact with the pad, the local temperature increases. When this local temperature reaches around 1200 or 1300 degrees F. the cast iron under the deposit begins to transform into cementite (an iron carbide in which three atoms of iron combine with one atom of carbon). Cementite is very hard, very abrasive and is a poor heat sink. If severe use continues the system will enter a self-defeating spiral - the amount and depth of the cementite increases with increasing temperature and so does the brake roughness. Drat!
12-05-2006, 07:33 AM
#38
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From that info it looks like the discs have developed Cementite over the whole face (the pictures show only one part, but it is like that 360deg), or like Mike said the pads have left deposits all around apart from that first 1cm, which I guess may be the coolest area?
I've had the 'pad imprint' problem before on an A3, you could plainly see it and the high spot was noticable all the time through pedal pulsation, even cold.
I now think what has happened is that the disc warps due to the different properties of the cementite against the normal iron, but on cooling the disc returns to within tolerances. So nothing to do with the Brembo calipers. *awaits 007*
Obviuosly you cant see a warped disc by eye, unless the pad imprint is present, but you can generally feel it by spinning the wheel and listening, or just through driving. My discs are fine when cold, warped when hot - that's why I thought it might be something else causing the problem.
So thanks to the people who contributed, it looks like the problem is solved.
Mike, cancel that order for the AP's, I'm getting some 60 quid special discs
Only joking BTW the order remains on!
I've had the 'pad imprint' problem before on an A3, you could plainly see it and the high spot was noticable all the time through pedal pulsation, even cold.
I now think what has happened is that the disc warps due to the different properties of the cementite against the normal iron, but on cooling the disc returns to within tolerances. So nothing to do with the Brembo calipers. *awaits 007*
Obviuosly you cant see a warped disc by eye, unless the pad imprint is present, but you can generally feel it by spinning the wheel and listening, or just through driving. My discs are fine when cold, warped when hot - that's why I thought it might be something else causing the problem.
So thanks to the people who contributed, it looks like the problem is solved.
Mike, cancel that order for the AP's, I'm getting some 60 quid special discs
Only joking BTW the order remains on!
12-05-2006, 08:08 AM
#39
Brent,
You can clearly see from your photos that that is the pad build up I mention.
However, the other problem with the one piece discs on Evos that hasn't been mentioned is that they get too hot (being unable to dissipate the heat) and kill the wheel bearings. APs are the cure.
You can clearly see from your photos that that is the pad build up I mention
.However, the other problem with the one piece discs on Evos that hasn't been mentioned is that they get too hot (being unable to dissipate the heat) and kill the wheel bearings. APs are the cure
.
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