Thrush

iTrader: (1)

Just watching this thing on the news about the riots currently underway in France... Apparently they are marching (and rioting) in a protest against a new law that is to be enforced in France, that allows employers to fire staff without any notice or explanation within their first 2yrs service... Apparently, the idea behind it is that if employers can fire more easily, they will be more inclined to hire, and the basis of this is to resolve the 23% unemployed population....

Umm, surely if you fire someone and then hire someone new, nothing has changed? The balance remains equal?

You have 100 people - 50 in work, 50 unemployed. You fire 3 people. You have 47 employed, and 53 employed. You then hire 3 new people, and the balance is restored : 50 employed, 50 unemployed.....

Is the French goverment a little backwards or something? (no offence to our resident Froggie's on here )

Mr S1

iTrader: (2)

I agree - all they do it move the problem about a bit, but don't solve it.

Like when they go on strike over July / Aug every year just to piss the English off.............

Rhys

Wrong!

If you make it easier to fire people, you more likey to Hire people. As the problem in France is employes get to a certain capacity and are to scared to hire new works as if they do, they are then affectivly stuck with the worker even if business takes a turn for the worse.

If you have a more Dynamica work force where it is easier to hire and fire people, it will more than likley creat jobs and improve the whole economy.

If you was running you own business, would you employ someone if you toke on a new contract. But the contract might fail you are then stuck with a worker and not the work for them? As i expect you would do is just try and load more work onto the the staff ie you or even might not bothering to expand because it could work out too costly for you if it was to fail.

Petrucci

the prob in France is that when you hire someone, and then run into financial problems with your company, when you need to reduce your number of workers, you can't fire your employees, or if you do, it's at huge costs because you are sued for this and need to pay the employees silly amounts of money (approx Ł15000 per employee per YEAR he has worked in your company). The risk is then huge for employers, and that's why they (and same for me as i'm running my own company) are scared to hire people.
Remember also that there are 47% of taxes on french employees. That's simple : if you pay someone Ł1000 per month, you have to give Ł470 per month to the government on top of this, for every employee.
I personnaly was not part of the riots as i was totally with the government on this new contract, i think it was a great step forward it terms of flexibility in companies. And as everyone knows (well except a lot of french stupid students and state workers, who are the persons that are working the less in this country) there is absolutely NO benefit in hiring someone, teaching him the job and how to work in your own company, to then fire him and start again with a new person. This is TIME and MONEY loss for companies... but don't ask silly people to understand this.
Also, one thing that must be considered : students like to go on strike not because of the idea or the real deal, it's just because they like to miss lessons and be outside instead of being in class. We all did this when we were younger, and everybody can remind this.
Anyway, it seems that lots of peeps in my country prefer to be unemployed rather than having this kind of new contract... that's a shame, but hey, that's "socialist" and syndicates point of view (and i would almost say communist as every syndicate in france is communist... shame. But at least you know that stupidity still exists ), which is ruining our country and economy since too long now.
We would need a french Thatcher, trust me.

Rhys

Totally Agree Petrucci!!!!

Dont take this the wrong way, but i think France needs someone who will grab the country by the horns and shake the labour laws, and idea of protectionism that France has and modernise it totally!!!

As u said you need someone like Mrs Thatcher! Although a lot of people slag her off they dont relise how much good she done by taking the unions on etc.

dojj

iTrader: (3)

but this firing thing is supposed to be for anyone who's under 25, and they don't even have to give you notice or anything
thats why the yoof are roiiting

or have i been watching the wrong news channels?

Anonymous

No the idea is if you need someone but not sure the job is secure, you can hire them anyway and if it doesnt turn out they end up back unemployed and have lost nothing.

Matt

petrucci, how can a budding business (yours for example) expand or ever run above a "one man band"? lots of companies must end up with silly amounts of partners/shareholders because they darent take the risk on employees? that said 47% employer costs on every salary who would want to risk it! i bet theres more backhanders and fiddle jobs in france than there is recorded income lol

oh and students arent nicknamed stupids for nothing LOL

Fudgey

iTrader: (4)

and i thought wales was fucked up

Rhys

DAn wtf, you dont half talk to shit latly

Fudgey

iTrader: (4)

only lately?

its ok rhys, im part welsh too

Rhys

pmsl fook of, well only seen u post a lot latly on u banter with Steve etc :gayflag:

Anyway dont ruin topic as quite intresting see what peeps think.

Fudgey

iTrader: (4)

true

BACK TO TOPIC!

France, NOT Wales!

GTechR

Did you notice though most of the people rioting?

Not actually students, but people from the (what they term slums) I would assume this the same lot that where rioting last year?

frog

Petrucci

Now, people here might start to understand why cigarettes and alcohol are so much cheaper in france

Quite, but I can't see the French voting for someone that strong, and can you imagine the state of the country for however long it will take things to settle... strikes for months on end in the "administration".

Petrucci

yep, but "administration" is the problem in France. Too many of them, and they aren't working at all. Even worse : when even the smallest change is coming in terms of laws, they immediatly go on strike and block the country, just so that they don't lose even the smallest amount of their priviledges. And they are the ones that have the most priviledges over here, so much it's crazy compared to normal employees/employers ! (and you know exactly the problem Greg as you're french too )
We need someone that shakes everything, and i don't care if the whole country is on strike during 6 months if it's needed for the good of the future. Fact is, lots of peeps like me won't go on strike because :
1) we want a change
2) if i went on strike, i wouldn't be paid as i'm not paid by the government, me... this is different to the "administration" ! So that's always the same : they can go on strike whenever they like because they have the right to, and because they don't lose money or customers while doing this, it's not the case of private employees/employers
We are turning a communist country, i repeat it, and this is absolutely scary. No wonder lots of peeps leave France when it's time to work and find a job... I got quite a few employees in my ISP company (14 at the moment) and you can't even imagine the HUGE amount of tax i have to pay every month on top of their wages. NO other country in the world would accept this, but hey,the government needs to find money somewhere to pay all the state workers (what we call "administration") they have hired over the years, and that CAN'T be fired ! (they are the most protected employees in the world, it's true facts).
If it was not for the wonderful place where i live (far south east of France, on the mediterranean sea, between Marseille, Cannes and Monaco), where the weather and landscape is outstanding, i would have gone to USA, UK or any other country since a long time

Rhys

Petrucci, what would an employe have to do in France to get sacked then?

frog

Well, when they do nothing, they don't get the sack

dojj

iTrader: (3)

thats a bit shit on the employer then ain't it
sounds like a great idea from this side of the river though
but in practice i think the greener grass on the other side always turns out to be astroturf

Petrucci

exactly. If they don't work, you can't fire them. Unless they are stealing something in your company, insulting a customer or anything REALLY serious like this, you can never fire anyone without being sued. Even in case of faults or money problems.

frog

Or the cows shit there.
Or, you have to mow it cos it's always raining...

Rhys

Fook shocking , must be a very stressful time choosing a new employee in France! Thinking what happens if they pick the wrong person

Thrush

iTrader: (1)

Fair enough when you put it like that! I hadn't thought it through had I?

Cracks me up

diamonds 1

long as they dont come over here looking for jobs i dont care.

frog

I did and got one

Rhys

WElcome to come over here and get jobs!!! How else do u think the UK economy grows

ON-UJAH

The law makes sense, the only part I dont agree with is the age limit on it. It is only for young people - over 26 it no longer applies. That is just unfair - it's no wonder the young people are up in arms about it. If your going to do something like that, it has to be across the board.

BTW I'm over 26.

Easily the biggest problem in mainland western Europe today is the older generation. They have huge pensions which cannot be sustained by the younger generations. Unfortunatly there's so many of them, that it is impossible to make proper moves to cut the burden - governments pander to them because they need their vote.

Another group is the government workers - I know many people that work there, and they all confirm that the offices are full of incompetent, lazy people, it's not uncommen to hear of alcoholics working for the government. They all have job security by law, huge pensions, and lots of benefits. And there is so many of them, it is almost impossible to make cutbacks.

In my opinion the only way foreward is to reduce the tax firms pay to employ people, to do this costs have to be cut, by removing state pensions for a start. A line should be drawn, anyone the wrong side will have to accept that they will get no state pension, so they can arrange a private pension if they choose to (maybe those under 30). Unemployment pay should be leveled to provide equal benefits for all unemployed - it doesn't matter if you were a bank manager or a farmlabourer, everyone gets the same, enough to live a decent life.

State pensions should be capped - again it doesn't matter if you earned millions of thousands, there should be a maximum state pension for those that worked and paid into it long enough (and fall the other side of the line I mentioned above). Anyone who can't accept that, can get a private pension plan on top.

Small to medium sized firms should get extra tax breaks for newly employed workers.

Furthermore families should be rewarded with benefits and tax breaks - the way it is currently going, poplulations will continue to schrink and become older (in average) - so the tax burden will be even heavier on the few workers. This has to be changed, having children should be encouraged and promoted as much as possible.

Finally there must be a decent minimum wage, to prevent worker exploitation.

With these steps it should be possible for firms to take on more workers, and the workers will see more of the money they earn. This should give them more buying power, and liven up the markets as well as increase birth rates.

Rhys

Oh well does look like the French government have no back bone
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4895164.stm

Feel sorry for employers over there like Petrucci.

frog

Spinless government, the people have won, the government is a farce, guess what will happen when they next try and push something through.

You can say what you want about T.Blair, but at least he gets things done, whether we like it or not is another matter...

Rhys

Thats the trouble! They dont do them selves any good. Now they are seen to back down, its causing more trouble for the future when they are going to try an pass things through!!


They do need someone that strong willed in power!