Karl

Oh dear round and round we go. Yes The L8 is old and yes it uses the ancient motorola 6840/6803 processor BUT no matter how much you may all argue, the factory settings and algorithms are so good and the mapping control we have for it, that it is UNBEATABLE for refinement!!!

Remember people, keep this in perspective, its an old car, old engine and the weber ecu is damn awesome for this engine. Yes modern ecus are more technologically advanced but you will not get a better drive than the factory L8.

marco polo

iTrader: (1)

AlexF

Not arguing... just interested!

I doubt anyone would argue that the std stuff is damn good

foreigneRS

i'm not doubting that the L8 is good karl, but i'm interested to know why it's good.

is it the hardware that is so well suited to the engine, or is it the software?

cos if it's the software, then i can't see why it couldn't be replicated in megasquirt or some other kind of ecu

Karl

I'm affraid as I don't design ecu's I cannot answer why the L8 is so good from an internal design point of view. Simon @ Secs is your man to help with that. All I can tell you is the control systems of the ecu seem extremely well suited to the engine and even on heavily modded engines are mappable enough to retain perfect drivability.

mk1 chris

we fit a variety of aftermarket ecu's and ECUTEK was born at PE (subaru and evo standard ecu flash programming software) and i have to agree with karl, you cannot beat the standard car management systems.

manufacturers spend millions on developing ecu software to work in extremes of temperatures, with different fuels and lack of regular service intervalls, even engine wear, you can not replace this without spending equal amounts of time and money, you will get close, but not quite spot on with aftermarket management, however good it is.

only my opinion though

Shings

I am sure some people get good results, and I am sure its a very capable system but why change to something that some guy in his shed has developed from something that Ford/Webber probably spent MILLIONS of pounds designing and developing for the specific engine.

Although Dave took the piss with his response- His way of explaining it was bang on....

ECU Monitor Enthusiast

iTrader: (1)

The reason the L8 is so good is that its software was specifically tailored
for the charecteristics of the YB engine design.
Effectively, the power output does NOT change these characteristics.

There are settings within it that help it to be good that never need to be
adjusted that have already been set to optimum values.

Some examples...

The distance of the injector nozzle versus port length.
Reaction time of the map sensor (not too fast but not too slow)
Injection phasing overlap versus RPM.
Matching of the TPS sensor to the actual throttle angle.

The main problem with ANY aftermarket ECU is that they try to be
masters of all and so require much more setting up and adjustments
to get anywhere near the original factory refinments.

In effect, Karl and other that use L8 (Stu) to an extent have there lives
made a bit easier when making there modifications to the mapping
BUT taking nothing away from them, skill and experience play a big part
aswell.

At the end of the day, ANY tuner who is intimate with a particular ECU
system will have a preference to it anyway and will also have better
knowledge and feel for what is required for a specific tuning requirement.

9 out of 10 people have NO need to run an aftermarket ecu as all they
care about is how there car goes and NOT what is needed to do it.

It is a fact the L8 is superior to many ecu's in how is transient fuelling
works (even my S8 ) and that secret is now being incorporated
into my product and hopefully Karl will be testing it for me soon as
it has transformed the way my car now drives !!
(sorry for the blatent plug all )

However, L8 isnt perfect and there are 1 or 2 things I dont like about it
but thats just my opinion.

The final word on this really is ... Doesnt matter really what ECU you run,
its all down to the mapping and engine spec in the end and although I
may know much about ecu's, mapping will never be something I will ever
have confidence to do for anyone else but my for my own car.

..

Anonymous

Nice explanation simon

And i cant wait for this up and coming release of the SECS software and windows mapping stuff especially the wideband target map
I assume there is a "update map with current values" option going to be on that so that you can use it to permenantly update the map after you have given it a drive and its altered those sites?

im really looking forward to getting it on my car and mapping it, although like you, i know that it just means spending days of my time to do something not as well as karl or stu could do for a pretty meagure amount of money

JimmyBoy

iTrader: (1)

I just get the impression that some people would give the MS system alot more "thought" if was a lot more expensive than it is. People tend to take the attitude "its cheap, so its crap".

bud-weis

not at all, it's cheap and probably a good product, but to have a 'one size fits all' product over 1 that already does the job exceedingly well means it will probably never be an option for any YB owner.

i guess it's good for someone who has built there own car and would like to have there own mappable ecu, but for someone like me, who is about to change ECU, i look at what product will be best for the driveability of the car and also factor the budget, just happens that L8 is a simple fit and isn't expensive.

i wouldn't dare attempt to map my own engine ( like i could )after throwing so much money at it, when having it mapped costs so relatively little

ECU Monitor Enthusiast

iTrader: (1)

JimmyBoy,

I have experienced MS myself. Its not bad and it is evolving
but it does have some major technical defficiencies especially
when trying to attach it to a cossie engine.

MS is fine if you can build it, fit it and map it yourself and make software
and hardware modifications to suit your application.

What I am trying to say, Yes its cheap BUT if you have the time, skills and
or the money to pay someone else to do the work for you then go for it !

If its something you do as a hobby or as a chalenge then its worth the
trouble otherwise in real terms it isnt much cheaper than some sub £1000
systems that you can buy !


In real terms, you can buy a more expensive system and its easier
to fit, more people know how to use it, has the right configurations etc..

aduz

Garage19

Ok, so we know th L8 is very well suited to the yb lump and which maked the YB a poor example for the application of megasquirt.

However, what would you say Karl, if some one said they wanted to run their tuned ERST on it? Surely it will be a huge improvement on their old mechanical injection!! Much better control of cold start enrichment, cranking, transient fuelling, and general spark and fuel control. Plus the added bonus of closed loop and coil pack ignition for a stronger spark. No more un reliable dizzy.

I would say this is where MS comes into its own.

JohnnyB

well done chaps a contructive chat, very good info


thanks

foreigneRS

good thread, and some very interesting technical discussion so far

CliffRS4

iTrader: (1)

Or just put cossie management on it with a L8

AlexF

Why Clifff....

All the clear advantages for a running L8 on a YB are different if you put it on a different engine!



I think Simon has hit the nail on the head though. The nice thing about MS is the fact it will constantly evolve and if someone puts the effort into making it work well with CHV or even YB it could be an option for some. For me its great there is no aftermarket ECU for mini engine


Alex

JesseT

The weber marelli is a good management, but I couldn't ever consider it as an option for me for as long as there's no tuning software freely available for it. I just can't imagine not be able to datalog or experiment with settings. Also the idea of having to take my car to a tuner every time I change the cam profile, knock threshold, boost curve, etc. is unacceptable for me. And at least I can't find anyting wrong with the transient fuelling. For a tuner who have bought all the tuning software for the weber marelli, it's probably an ok ecu to work with.

But that's just me, and some other people just like to use tuners and then drive their car and not know about or wanting to alter it's settings.

sygjim

iTrader: (1)

total agry

and you have a lot of tools that you can use to monitor and datalog

JimmyBoy

iTrader: (1)

I think the ERST management is a slightly better example / argument. It has (kind of) been concluded that cossie management is very good for the YB lump becuase it is specifically designed for that lump etc... etc...

But, as said, what about it being an option for a user wanting to convert the MFi S2 over to EFi. I personally think it would be a very good option, better than OFAB / OFAC, and better than cossie management, becuase as SECS explained in his post the cossie management has been specifically designed for the YB lump, so surely if your putting this onto a cvh it is not going to be ideal, and I feel MS would be a better & cheaper option, plus you get more options with the MS than you would with cossie management (AFAIK).

JimmyBoy

iTrader: (1)

Explain the advantages L8 has over MS on an engine other than the YB, ie cvh / zvh / zetec?

foreigneRS

the L8 has not been specifically designed for the YB engine at all.

it is factory fitted to many other vehicles, some of which ahve 4 wheels, and some only 2

ThomasRC

Weber is for YB,yes as has been said you need not change from L8 your only possibly sensible upgrade is to P8 which has all the features you would possibly need.Aftermarket ECU's are best off being left for vehicles that NEED a better ECU.No home mechanic can realistically map any of these aftermarket ECU's,people seem to think its easy,if you actually really think that you should be knocking on tuner's doors!!

JesseT

It really isn't too difficult with datalogs, wideband lambda, EGT, knock sensing, automated tuning software etc. in use. If one thinks it's too much, then he really should be knocking on tuners' doors.

stevieturbo

So true. I hope I never have to put my trust in a so called "tuner". As I'm sure many have found out to their cost, some are better than others.
My brief Cosworth experience with vendors supplying chips to suit spec, is very poor. It would make me very very reluctant to waste money buying another chip, just to hope its correct

At least when you can map it yourself, you will know everything is as you want it, and you arent putting blind faith in others to do the job.

The tuners can rant and rave about the Weber ecu, and that they can map it propelry live on the road. Then give others that option, and they too can shout its praise.
Until that happens others will see it as a restrictive ecu, as I do myself, as I am unable to do anything with it, apart from pay and hope others might do the job right.
As I said, that isnt going to happen.

Ive never used Megasquirt, but know via different forums plenty who have, although most are n/a users. But there are a few turbo guys. I dont hear too many complaints about it.

Ive also been recently informed of another update, called Microsquirt, and Megatune software, which looks a lot nicer than the older megasquirt software I looked at ages ago. It seems to have a 16x16 map.

It is one option I am considering for a friends Cossie, although I had hoped to find something plug n play, rather than having to make up a wiring loom.. Simons SECS is another option I am considering.

Just becuase the MS is cheap, doesnt mean its useless. After all, widebands used to be hundreds, if not thousnads of pounds. Then the DIY vesion appeared.
Was it crap ? I think not. It may not have been perfect, but it did bring tuning to another level, allowing millions of people around the world to fine tune their cars much better than ever before.

A lot of development may go into big name ecu's, but there is also a lot of profit thrown in there too, when cheaper ones can do pretty much the same job.

CasperR

Some people might forget that not all countries have people who can map the cossie management, so megasquirt becomes the obvious choice for many.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Sorry you have had bad experiences with your YB, please dont let the rogues tar us all with their brush, some of us really do know exactly what we are doing.

DazC

iTrader: (1)

I think what Simon means is that the operating system settings within the L8 ECUs supplied to Ford by Webber Marrelli had been developed and optimised to suit the YB engine.

What I would expect to happen if you used an L8 ECU off a Fiat for example, and plugged in your Cossie chip, (if it would start) I think that it wouldn't drive any where as nice as that ECU would have been optimised for the Fiat engine.

DazC

iTrader: (1)

That's why I will be (eventually) employing you to map my (over) complex engine management upgrade!!

GARETH T

PMSL

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

The fact that its easier to map for the DIY'er and pro though is something some people dont appreciate enough, i mean, how many of you have ever seen the equiptment required to map an OEM ecu managed car live properly?

Eprom Emulator.
Emulator data back up Unit.
Datalink cables.
Serial link Cables.
Transfer key.
High power DC supply Unit.
Det cans
AFR unit.
Laptop.

It takes us over an hour to get it all installed and working so its not obtrusive in the bloody cabin.. il show you pics if your not sure what i mean...

Aftermarket is bliss, plug in laptop and it works.

GARETH T

i would lvoe too have a watch of you mapping an OEM ecu,, just too see what its like

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Feel free to pop across one day and you can come out with me for an hour, i will show you what is what and then after work i will let you pay the bill at Pizza hut.

GARETH T

sounds like a plan i hoping to show my face a little more this year, get out of lovely wales a little more

mrviper

im shure omex is a re branded megasquirt with better software

im probably wrong tho

BMEP

I assume this comment is comparing the L8 to MS?

I have no doubt that the current Autronic/Motec ecu’s will not only match an L8 for drivability, transition throttle, cold start etc considering the extremely fine injection time (resolution 0.001ms) and having a proper sequential injection timing window (720Deg) but be much nicer to drive especially once 1,000cc + injectors are being used

There is no doubt it will take more time to map as the L8 has been mapped over the years so many times that there will be an abundance of “base” figures to use for the YB. Then again someone that is an Autronic/Motec user on a daily basis will easily and quickly get all the finer issues sorted due to knowing the system/software well

James-W

A bit of the topic but Karl does your car still run L8?

GARETH T

how long do you think it takes ford to map an l8? this is the problem with aftermarket stuff,,, time is money

also the L8 would of been mapped in an environment booth, not many garages have them about the place

James-W

BTW great explanations Karl and Simon.
Gareth T totally off topic but was it you who was going to make a carbon replica of a Swedish inlet manifold?
If it was how did you get on?