Trist

is it an easy job? does it replace and plug into the amel valve is? what are its advanteges? to get better MAP and hold better boost?

martysmartie

iTrader: (1)

Do you mean air injectors? If so they control the boost and are "Suppostedly" a better form of boost control.

They look like fuel injectors but that is where the similarity stops.

Martin

Trist

Yes air injectors.

tabetha

The "air" injectors you refer to are NOT AIR INJECTORS.
They are in fact CNG, compressed natural gas injectors, but do the job effectively as air injectors, although they were never designed as such by bosch.
Touted as "better" by those that use and sell them, makes you wonder what controlled the boost perfectly well before "air" injectors existed, if I was being cynical I'd think it was just another gimmick like closed loop!!
tabetha

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Please explain to these gentlemen why an amal valve is as good as air injectors sir.

tabetha

Over to you sir, please explain why a air to air is needed and why a amal is seemingly so bad ?
Please also show me where I said the amal was as good, I've re read it several times and can't see it ?
I did say the amal did the job perfectly well before before the next "thing" came along, or are you saying every amal valve equipped car is doomed to failure ?, does that include the ones you've set up on amal valves ?
It may well be that certain cars due to spec would benefit from air to air over amal, but doesn't mean amal can't do the job perfectly well on the majority does it ?
tabetha

James @ M Developments.

iTrader: (2)

ahh, so its a gimmick, but some may benifit from them?

tabetha

You benefit more from gimmicks!!
A "gimmick" most would think of would be something that is not needed, or beneficial to their particular car, like say a T88 on a bog std sierra cossie, so this would be a gimmick to most but to a few invaluable, what did MSD do before the air to air come along ?, did you use with perfectly good results the amal valve, or have you never ever set a car up on a amal valve ?, or did those that you set up on amal valves all fail badly ?
tabetha

James @ M Developments.

iTrader: (2)

That's a little bit like saying your emerald ECU is a gimmick because an old L1 would start and drive just the same

Trist

so does it fit in place of the amel and plug into the same plugs and pipes then get car maped after?

Moonstone Steve.

iTrader: (2)

It does replace the amal valve, you need to get a sub loom made up if they dont come supplied with the kit, then a remap or the least a check over by one of the many pro's on here.

Steve

martysmartie

iTrader: (1)

I think the calibration has to suit the air injectors full stop, I.E the current map would be useless as it will be programmed to control an Amal opposted to injectors.

Martin

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

An amal valve, whilst it can be pulsed, is a very crude device that offers limited control over its output, its essentially a mechanical bleed valve, so, as revs rise and air consumption increases we end up with boost tailing off and we cant do anything about it. Another scenario is a turbo that is too big and we want to save the bog boost until higher revs to combat surge or traction issues. Tricky to impossible with an Amal valve.

With Air Injectors on Weber we have 255 steps from open to closed so can control just how much air is allowed to flow to the wastegate at ANY RPM. So as boost falls, we can actually close the wastegate a little and speed up the turbocharger to compensate. On a modern ecu we have over 65000 values to play with.

Another bonus is we can keep all air from getting to the wastegate at all by closing the injectors at low revs and boost levels, thus speeding up the spool and arrival of peak boost pressure.

Its the whole "thing" where you insinuate that things are gimmicks just because you don't understand them.


Agreed, but that isn't what you said now is it?

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Air Injectors have been used since the late 70s mate. I was at primary school when they "Came along". LOL

ian sibbert

Tabs,

Not one to defend but get a grip pal, this harbouring of negativity towards MSD is a little trivial pal and certainly spoils my passionford enjoyment...MSD and Stu didn't invent or even overtly promote Air Injectors, we used them 15-16 years ago, so they're hardly a gimmick, they provide a more superior boost control, not necessary on some road cars I concur but never the less a viable upgrade to any modified cossie.

Feel the love a little pal and try and bury the hatchet, negativity breeds hate and hate is just totally unnecessary on car enthusiast forum..there are enough people out there trying to cast aspersions towards car enthusiasts without one of our own being malicious.

All IMO...lol

Ian

damien roe

iTrader: (1)

right so above what boost/power would the air to air be more suitable to

rubinsbin

mmmmm-!!!!
points of view+-free speech-
so we need to be two faced?-LOL
OK- I LOVE EVERYONE AND EVERYONE IS RIGHT-

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Its more complex than that, its not a case of a certain power level needs it and others dont.

It allows very accurate control of boost, that might not be something particuarly needed at 500bhp in a 4wd car, but may be needed at 300bhp in a FWD car etc.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Sorry, missed this.
Yes your absolutely right, an amal map is in no way suitable for air injectors, in fact, it simply wont work as configuration wise the output driver is inverted because amal control is "bleed off" and "AI is bleed on"

RS SHAUN

iTrader: (24)

so do you need to get it mapped for air injectors, or is off the self chip ok stu?
cheers shaun

Chip

iTrader: (3)

It can be done with a chip, it just needs to be an air to air specific chip, like Im sure MSD will supply you with

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Live Mapping for the AI's is the ultimate solution as boost depends on pressure drops through coolers, wastegate loading, actuator spring rating and of course the AI units themselves and their associated air bleed calibration holes but we can supply most calibrations by mail order no problem as long as we know EXACTLY what your using.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Thats kind of true with an amal valve these days though given that you dont know what jet is in it (or not) as so many have been fucked about with and what condition the actuator is etc.

olek

does anyone know if AI can be controlled by a Autronic SM4 unit?

also, whats really the diffrence between single and twin AI? other that the number of injectors obviously.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Anything with a PWM output can use one really. Its no different to most boost solenoids on the market, but if your using aftermarket ECU then to be honest we tend to use these:

http://shop.motorsport-developments....3003-302-p.asp

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

The single and twin both flow teh same so only difference is aesthetics "Usually" but there are bogus ones out there...

See Fast Ford this month for everything you need to know about Air Injectors. (Tabetha perhaps wont be interested...)

BIG WULL

iTrader: (5)

was going to say that. some of you guys are not keeping up to speed with your ford mags tut tut