digitalgraham

Does anyone know how you can tell if either the ECU has been modded and/or the EPROM has the correct instructions added to it?

I am trying to work out what I need if anything.

digitalgraham

Don't worry, there's more than one way to skin a cat ...

Sorted thanks for EVERYONE's help

digitalgraham

I have been doing some digging re:ECU Weber Pectel monitoring etc etc. Now why is it so many other owner/enthusiast sites have collaboratively producing dash mounted engine monitoring equipment, software that will interface with the ECU etc? Yet the Ford RS scene is a closed shop with those that do start something are belittled or their work dismissed as pointless.

I know this is big business and may have an affect on their work, but they shouldn't be afraid of a little competition, nor shy away from potentially new hardware/software to further strengthen the RS tuning scene.

Discuss pls

p.s. I am getting at no one in particular with this message, it's just my findings. If someone can prove me wrong then my digging was obviously limited . just a quick note: I have never used any of the well know or not so well know tuners of which some frequent these pages. So no malice or finger pointing is intended.

foreigneRS

the ecu does not need modifying to output the datastream (except P8 that was not used in sierra's), only the run program in the chip.

i also cannot understand why the code is not publically available by now. it was originally developed by pectel, now PI, and i have heard that they like to legally protect their Intellectual Property.

having said that, i know that it has been cracked and that motorsport developments sell software that was developed by RP Lab to read the datastream into a PC. collins also sell a monitor to read the datastream (similar to the original rally Pectel monitor, not to be confused with SECS monitors that just tee into the ecu inputs and do an analogue to digital conversion rather than using the conversion inside the ecu).

digitalgraham

Thought so about the data not being made available. Don't know if anyone else has looked into the other IAW ECU's of very similar design, but there have been some designs for similar types of Monitors.

I have looked at SECS but not in too much depth so don't know exactly how it retrieves the data, but several of the other IAW ECU's only use the serial data out of the diag port in the car.

I have already done some work in this area using my L8 ECU, already had some good results

I can vaguely remember someone on here had started work on an application that did something similar to the RP Labs stuff, what happened to that project?

Thanks for the response, good to see someone can be arsed

Miller 3

iTrader: (4)

yer that was Simon aka SECS aka Flux capacitor Seems he got shot down by a few people and it just all went quite

digitalgraham

Thats my point exactly, if someone has an interest in producing something then I don't see why they should be shot down. It's for all the benefit of the RS scene and will inevitably prolong and hopefully grow the interest in the RS tuning industry. Now I doubt whether a project designed by someone on here is likely to have a major impact on the tuning scene, if it did then the tuning companies should be buying into the idea and not slagging them off!

How do they think innovators are born?

Anyway thats my ramble over for now, my little project will be posted on here once I have built the prototype on my car. I just wish I spent a little bit more time on machine code programming (for those that know, VB, C#, C++ and more are great for commercial). I love reverse engineering other peoples programming work tho, funny seeing how others have b@stardized others coding . Not exactly rocket science mind you tho.

Miller 3

iTrader: (4)

If you need any help/advice on that send a pm to Flux capacitor and please post your findings on this thread as i like to see how things like this progress

digitalgraham

Any progress will be shown here defo, the application is part written, the initial hardware is built, just needs testing (and refining, looks like a bedroom hobbyist just knocked some crap together atm). I won't shy away, it's not my job just a project thought to while the hours away.

Have a look at this for the Fiat Coupe ...



Just a simple monitor and not too expensive in comparison to the commercial products out there. Just priced the main components up, approx Ł60 but theres a few other bits. But with everything it would still struggle to get over Ł100, the only other bit is the programming of the device ...

foreigneRS

like i said, it does not retrieve the data. it takes the individual analogue signals, TPS voltage (approximately 0 to 5V) and uses an analogue to digital converter internally to convert that to throttle opening etc

whilst this will tell you if the sensor is working, it does not tell you that the ecu is reading the sensor output correctly and using it in the maps, which the datastream does.

tabetha

The above one on the fiat looks VERY interesting, sure a lot would defo be interested in similar ?, I know I would, even though I'm buying all individual gauges at the mo.
tabetha

foreigneRS

what i also meant to say was that i don't know if the fiat ecu had the datastream in the chip from the factory, but cosworth's didn't. they just had a code output that could be used to flash an led to give an indication of any sensor faults like open circuit, but not any values.

the datastream only came about when pectel started it in rally cars and then chips got copied and maps altered until it became more commonplace. but there are not many people selling chips that understand how the datastream is coded.

digitalgraham

Well, I have decoded the datastream in theory. Just some good bedtime reading (I lied with good, more like reading for insomniacs ) of the 6803 programmers manual and head banging with the several chips I have disassembled

So I now just (JUST!!!) need to put the practice in to motion and log the datastream to a PC and verify the output.

Then it's a case of coding a PIC Eprom chip to decode the datastream and output the info to the LCD. It's been a while since I did any of that stuff so don't know how long that will take

Jeez I make it sound so easy! In reality it may take some time

Will keep you informed of any progress.

oohogwash1

Interesting work, keep it up

foreigneRS

sygjim

iTrader: (1)

http://forzavx.com/gecu/index.html

digitalgraham

This is a good site, I have seen it before and there is some good data on there.

oohogwash1

I have made a windows program to load and compare Webber Marelli IAW chips for cossies. I did not spend much time on it it just shows the differences in bin files and shows the actual values of a number of settings...
I thought that this might be useful to generate shared knowledge of IAW ecu settings... but I did not release it as I was concerned it might upset the few tuners that you guys have ( I have none here in Aus so it does not matter much and am eventually doing my own stuff here)
I wonder what the difference is between the IAW modules on the site above and the cossie ones are... maybe I could release something with a more limited audience that does not upset anyone

digitalgraham

I have a similar thing but just used Excel, have compared chips from almost ALL tuners in UK, and the some that "used" anothers base chip to mod.

I have also worked out where most chips have originated (i.e. tuner, software app, etc). My problem is I don't know enough about engines, that is why I am looking for a cheap simple engine monitor. Hence this thread

oohogwash1

I am a software engineer of 20yrs.... your comment on Excel is interesting, given that the files are binary did you do some conversion to csv or something... and how did you load from the eprom?
My program reads the binary file and extracts the real numbers.. on a purely technical note what did you do?
As for engine tuning, I have a lot of experience in racing bikes over the years and some car stuff but am being cautious on engines like these. Fundamentally the Webber Marellis are simpler than most but it costs a lot to fix a mistake.
I am intending to use O2 sensors and other sensors to help me identify engine status and problems before they become serious. I am thinking that for engine control I will leverage what others have done rather than reinvent the wheel. Thus my work will be to fine tune the engine. I am intending to use all of my own software and embedded systems later on though.
I think thats the safest route.

LINCOLN

iTrader: (1)

I wonder whether the data stream is anything like the data output that the standard pectel ECU can send to a PI Dash?

It is values in hex sent out every 10ms and rolls between them at different rates (I think rpm is most sent). I have a document they sent me somewhere if it is useful. It makes producing a monitor for pectel ecu's very easy.

ECU Monitor Enthusiast

iTrader: (1)

ECU Monitor Enthusiast

iTrader: (1)

XXXXXX got the hump because he didnt like the fact I could read his chips and I knew how to bypass the encryption.
My program would have opened up all the secrets and those that really are not secret at all and are infact standard ecu features PMSL.
I was threatened with a ban even if I published it away from this site but that wont stop "someone" else doing it

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Interesting comment as the only Cosworth tuner on here who could ban you is me, and it wasn't me. So, since your comment above is obviously compiled in such a way as to make people presume it was me, I would like you to tell me / us who threatened to ban you from here?

JanDK

iTrader: (3)

And I would like Simon/FLUX to replie my messages..please

sorry off topic

digitalgraham

Moderator ... please.

There may have been some issues with Flux, but this is not the place to air them again!

Can we have this back on topic please?

digitalgraham

The datastream has not been read yet, just the theory from the vast reading I have amassed. The comment about Excel was the chips had been read via a programmer, disassembled into Assembly Code. These were then compared for the various parameters, maps, triggers etc etc. I was going to use VB but found it very quick in Excel (+ I have hours of spare time at work with Excel and no access to VB!!!).

Anyway, hardware is designed and simulator is built, just needs more coding. This allows me to simulate the finished item on a PC screen as though it were a standalone unit.

Question, would data-logging be a good feature? Don't really want to make things too complicated at this time but it's just a thought.

Graham

digitalgraham

Help, think I may be having a "blonde" moment! What else am I looking for on the serial out?
Crank Pulse
Injector Timing
MAP sensor
Air Temp
Engine Temp
Throttle Position
Battery Voltage
CO2 reading

????? Any more?

LINCOLN

iTrader: (1)

This is what an SQ6 can send

Engine Speed
Throttle Angle
Manifold Pressure
DetG
Lambda1
Lambda 1 Trim
Lambda 2
Lambda 2 Trim
Wheel Speed
Gear Position
Fuel Pulse Width
Ignition Angle
Oil Pressure
Fuel Pressure

Battery Voltage
Delta Alarm
Error Flag
Air Temperature
Water Temperature
Oil Temperature
Fuel Temperature
Atmospheric Pressure
Fuel Counter
Exhaust Temperature 1
Exhaust Temperature 2

digitalgraham

I understand that the SQ6 has far greater capabilities than the std ECU's but there is an obvious cost implication.

I am look at the datastream from the standard ECU's. Thanks for that info tho.

I don't s'pose anyone knows the sequence of data Transmission?

LINCOLN

iTrader: (1)

cut and paste from document did not work very well but I have order for T6/SQ6 if that helps?

foreigneRS

this will give you an idea of what you can find in the datastream

http://www.motorsport-developments.co.uk/iaw.html

ECU Monitor Enthusiast

iTrader: (1)

Stu,

I will not respond as you would only use my reply as an excuse to dish out more points even though I would remain respectful of your position on here and be polite.



Graham,

If you want, I can send you a document detailing the full protocol and what you can do with it aswell as all the extra stuff that a normal monitor doesnt do !
You can also read out maps, make temporary adjustments etc....
Also, I can show you how to add the protocol to standard or unencrypted chips and enable limited features on certain types !


PM me your email address or give me a bell on 07772528302 between 6pm and 9pm any evening.

(All free of any charge or reward of course)


HTH

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

I dont see why tuners would be upset at someone decoding the ECU to read the data on it??? After all its not the tuners ECU design and hence not thier copyright to protect. Sure they might not like extra competition if someone starts offering a cheaper data steam monitor/logger but thats just business and tough titties.

Pectel/PI might get upset but surely that depends on the exact license for using a ECU programmed by them. Im not even sure if mid 1990's software licenses were included in the car documentations and im not convinced merey decoding something constitutes a copyright breach.

Sure, decoding a tuners encrypted chip and copying software is a different matter completely and obviously a copyright issue with that tuner.

digitalgraham

warrenpenalver

My point exactly, the hardware isn't copied, the software has to be unique due to the hardware being used. The chip tuners data will remain unchanged as the unit will only be viewing the resultant RS232 streaming data. So there will be no infringement of manufacturers copyright, no hacking/alteration of chip data and therefore no tuners data will be altered.

oohogwash1

The threads that I watch on here were not heated over the datastream that much but rather over the contents of the chips that tuners claim to have rights over.
My application that viewed chips showed the changes are often not that significant or complex however it is likely that someone spent a long time getting the setting correct and that others have copied them over time.
It is a fine line to providing access to data for the overall better understanding and protecting the hard work of others... there are points to support both sides of the argument.
In theory there should be some process like patents where the idea is owned for set period of time then anyone can use the knowledge. But it would be impossible to enforce.
Given the chips and ecus are so dated one would think that tuners could open source this stuff and combine to make a better upgrade like RPLabs and the like are doing...
Use the latest technology with the minds of those who have spent years working out the best way to configure the engines.. people would pay to upgrade to that, thats better than selling chips for IAW stuff I would think

digitalgraham

Again another sensible outlook. The unit I am building will ONLY view sensor data, I am not an engine builder/tuner and never will be. But, what I want is the means to view what the engine is doing and make sure it does not step beyond parameters that I will determine are good running for the engine. If the indicated parameters are displaying a high/low reading then, I can save the engine (and avoid yet another costly rebuild!)

I understand that tuners have a right to "safe guard" their business and the Intellectual Property (i.e. their skill) and I have no wish to undermine that, as without these guys we would all be shed mechanics and thats scary.

The same could be said of all the OBD interfaces and applications that are free/sharware/cheap to buy on the web. If there was such a problem with accessing ECU data then the manufacturers of the std systems would have all these people in court. But I haven't heard of any such cases.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

That is the feature tuners are likely upset at mate as Simon has publicly announced he has done that and is releasing the software to do it. Its not something he has designed, its a backdoor that Pectel designed in over 20 years ago that we all knew existed but didn't utilise as we have no wish to copy other tuners software or make it possible for others to do so.

zvhrst

interesting read this.

are we all not better off with stand alone ecu's and loggers these days.........

digitalgraham

The data stream wasn't a Pectel thing, from what I understand. The serial output is a feature of the the Motorola processor in the ECU. Pectel were the 1st to utilize this with the monitor initially designed for motorsport uses.

Any software that is designed to read RS232 data isn't actually decoding any tuners chip data, as the chip isn't being accessed.