AstoN_B

iTrader: (1)

Apologies for the long post guys, but thanks for taking the time to have a look.

Had a minor failure this weekend just gone, one of the ignition relays packed up. This drew my attention to the fact that despite having an 82º thermostat, my car gets quite hot quite quick during normal gentle driving (burbling ). The relay which went knocked out the lighting, heater blower, cooling fan etc.

Ever since getting my RST i've wondered if there is much point in the front mount Airtec cooler, cause 80% of it is behind the bumper:



While this generates loads of cool points, its not the kind of cool i'm after. How much benefit am i seeing from the parts of the cooler which are behind the bumper? Besides acting like a nice cosy blanket for the radiator? I had to drive half hour home without the cooling fans available, some of which was traffic & traffic lights. You can imagine how quickly it started to get hot.

I assume frontal surface area of a cooling 'device' is important which is why they are wide and not thick. But since most of the frontal area is covered/virtually sandwiched against the bumper its a moot point, plus its covering majority of the radiator too.

In my old 3i the cooling fan virtually never came on and temperature was spot on (in the queue for ford fair, i could leave heater on coldest). I understand being a turbo and also more cramped for space that temps will be higher, but my fans seem to come on all the time (i have an MSD colder switch, which im considering swapping back for standard). It seems like the intercooler is stopping A LOT of air getting to the rad and might not be as efficient as it could be in itself. Someone had previously fitted a 3rd(!!!) smaller fan to the back of the rad above the alternator, and also a small turbo cooler plumbed in by the passenger headlight. I'm after a clever solution rather than throwing bits at it to cure the chain of problems the extra heat causes.

I stood looking at it all earlier and wondered what sort of shape and sizes a side-by-side cooler and rad setup would need to be, and how effective it would be? A slightly smaller radiator would be needed to ensure a decent intercooler size, but im fine with swapping to waterless coolant or something to keep the system happy. Surely people have done it in the past?

Im going to be using the car mainly as fast road, but i'd like to do a few track days too this year. As i understand the fans are only 'effective' whilst driving slowly and create restriction to airflow at speed which must be compounded by the sandwich of cooler, fans and rad.

If im honest when i was putting it all back together after rebuilding engine i was thinking "this is just silly". But assumed it would work well since its the 'usual' bits people go for.


Opinions, suggestions and experience all welcomed. Cheers guys!

orion_crazy_carl

iTrader: (3)

I ran a cossie 4x4 cooler, sits low, ACTS really low, engine temp stayed spot on,

AstoN_B

iTrader: (1)

I'd also consider a slightly smaller intercooler and go for a meth inj kit. I've got low boost switch fitted and should be setup for 22psi on high, so if a suitable cooler for low boost is usable i can have the meth kit switch on when i flick onto high boost.

At a later date i intend on getting the manifold & exh housing coated to help with temps. And i'm considering trimming the little bar out of the bumper which is at the moment hidden by the number plate. I genuinely hate the fully cutout bumpers. That is not an option.

AstoN_B

iTrader: (1)

What turbo and boost were you running?

I've got a stage 2 hybrid, which will be setup for 22psi (fuel permitting). as mentioned above i could fit a meth kit, but dont want to rely on it too much.

simonmcf

iTrader: (1)

Looks like only way to get more on to the rad is reduce the size of the cooler? Is there room to move the cooler to the side a little? Other option is to fit a smaller cooler?

Why would you swap out the thermo for a standard one out of curiosity

Brendan

iTrader: (1)

I will lay my cards on the table from the start. I have a fiesta RS Turbo, I am running about 180 to 185 bhp, and my engine does possibly still run a bit cool! I made it through Liverpool in rush hour with no fan! and didn't get into the red but is was a bit close!

As regards cooling and inter-coolers I have a standard Ford radiator a bigger pace inter-cooler fitted next to it & a separate turbo cooler radiator plumbed in to be active all the time. I use water wetter from red line in the cooling system.

The final part of my cooling setup is water cooled exhaust valve guides like Ford used to do in their F1 racing engines. The bronze valve guide is made from billet Trojan alloy and machined to have fins in which the water in the engine head flow over!

I have attached a photo of the front of my car without a bumper so you can see the layout. I will as some point paint the inter-cooler mat black to improve its efficiency!

This setup works very well for the fiesta and could be applied to and escort if you have the time, inclination and money!

AstoN_B

iTrader: (1)

The fan switch not thermostat. Cause the fan seems to come on before it starts getting too warm and if I'm sat still it takes forever to drop down to where the switch wants to turn off. It's been acceptible at the moment but after track work and in summer weather it's only going to burn itself out running constantly.

AstoN_B

iTrader: (1)

Any pictures of the valve guides? Never seen that before.

I did some working out last night and an intercooler with 2.5 inch (63mm) core would need to be about 300mm wide and about 400mm tall to be adequate for my power, which should fit quite nicely and leave half the radiator open. I'd like to be in a position where I only need one fan, and the other could be on an switch inside for those just incase moments.

Or just have one fan so the cooler can drop back a couple cm's from the bumper which would no doubt get more through it.

Brendan

iTrader: (1)

I can't find the pics of the valve guides! at the moment pics of honing, piston's con rods etc.... I will as at the engine builders where we did I know he has some!

Beach

The main problem is air starvation to the rad!

It's a huge problem on most off the shelf front mount kits, it may be worth trimming the bumper to allow more air flow through the whole setup.

How good is your cooling system? Ie pump rad hoses etc?

It's why I'm running a twin cos cooler so the too of the rad is clear!

RSmark84

Trim the IC hoses and mount the IC closer to the passenger side(at least 2-3 inches). you'll want to buy another long bracket for the I/C and bin the short one..... you can also fit the spots as well with this method.

Rob_DOHC

iTrader: (4)

There has been a lot of debate regarding cooling recently. I've seen quite a few issues with the ford thermostat hosing too, the little ball that blocks the overflow often rots away.

I have a full front mount radtec, with my alloy rad (radtec too i think..) as close to the intercooler as possible. With front mounted fans I found lots of air was being pushed through the intercooler and out the gap between intercooler and rad, this clearly was no good for cooling. My plans for this year are to either make a proper rad pack where the rad and intercooler are virtually welded together meaning all the air that goes through the intercooler must also go through the rad, OR im going to make a decent charge cooler set up.

Frankly I'm leaning towards making a good charge cooler setup, big radiator (but thin you see lots on little jap cars that have the fill cap at the top), big reservoir and a nice big bosch pump with decent pump controller.

Good luck!

Rob

Karlos G

iTrader: (4)

CVH's running hot always puzzle me as IME a properly built and setup CVH has no problem cooling with an IC in front of the rad so long as the cooling system is in good order.

Even when running around 270bhp @ 32psi (That's right 32psi!) the highest temperature I ever saw was 115c and that was on a hot summers day with an ambient temp of 25c and was on a dual carriage way giving it full beans (right up to the limiter 6500rpm) on and off for about 15 mins.

Things that can make you run hot: Partially blocked waterways and rad, stat not opening, too lean, retarded ignition timing, advanced ignition timing, detonation, restrictive turbine housing, poor head/gasket/block contact (was the head skimmed and block decked at build?), incorrect grade of oil, ropey old water pump, water leak (dropping pressure).

Finally, how do you know your actually hot? Don't go by the 25 year old temp gauge, if you are then you really have no idea what your temps like! lol

Oh and running a fan switch that comes on at 86 degree's (or whatever it is) and then complaining about the fans being on all the time is just silly, the engine's ideal running temp (for thermal efficiency) is around...... 90c! So ideally shouldn't run cooler then that once warmed up (Cold winter days may see a bit lower of course).

Karlos G

iTrader: (4)

^^^^^ BTW That's general advice, not specifically aimed at you Aston! lol

crazycage

heres how ive done mine. i had no problem with cooling on the rad but my intercooler was at its limit. if it doesnt work ill try somthing differant.

muz

If the coolant system is in good order, I.e rad with a good core, no blockages etc and the intercooler is fitted properly I.e tight up against the rad you shouldn't have any problems on most set ups.

makaveli96

Having the twin fans in between the intercooler and rad will help to cool the rad down better than having it on the front of the intercooler.

AstoN_B

iTrader: (1)

All hoses are samco, and pump is brand new good quality, plus it was all flushed through before being rebuilt less than a couple months ago, and i used correct coolant dilution etc. I plan on trimming the little bar which is just under the number plate, I was thinking of a cooler using cossie cores modified to about the size i want. The image i have in my head looks pretty weird, i might sketch it so people can laugh at it.

Dont get me wrong when on the move and having a good blast it never gets warm, i've yet to see it get over half on the gauge and oil temp is pretty consistent too, but until i had to do the journey without them i didn't realise how much the fans were doing when its 'up to temp' and in stop start traffic. Which makes me thing the system isn't cooling effectively enough.

The cooler switch was alright to be fair, it came on a tad early and stayed on for a bit longer, sometimes id let it idle for a few minutes til it switched off once pulled into the garage. At least that way things were a fair bit cooler.

I do intend on refitting the standard fan switch, everything is put together in textbook/slight OCD fashion lol. If the relay hadn't gone this weekend i probably wouldn't have put much thought into it. But it was compounded by not being able to sync some heat away using the heater since that was through the relay too. I felt helpless! You always get paranoid when you've built something and a little niggle arises.

Obviously temps creep up when not moving, thats why cars have fans, but i'd like to see it drop to a normal level shortly after moving away again if the fans not available. And i've been pondering the purpose of an intercooler blocked mostly by the bumper, and big enough to stop the radiator getting some easy air. At this moment in time i feel like a slightly smaller radiator, but with a nice open front would be more effective than what i have, which is what made me think of a side-by-side rad and cooler. Though i could use a thicker core on the cooler so the rad doesn't need to be much smaller.

jessie_rs

I havent read whole thread but do you have an act gauge? I have a twins custom bumper for an S2 as on full load only 1bar currently zetec turbo ceramic coated everything, pace rad the acts were reading high and msd confirmed its just not getting enough air flow through the front bumper hence the front bumper modifications but still maintaining a standard look without the huge cut out bumper. Its for sale currently check for sale parts section if interested

AstoN_B

iTrader: (1)

No ill be gettin a zeitronix setup in April whilst in states so that'll have act logging.

An ideal scenario would be an xr3 rad with a wide cooler mounted either top or bottom, but there's no room for boost pipe work then.

lacey

How will the fans help more being between the rad and I/c ?

1 rad and I/c as close as pos"
2 seal the rad to the I/c
3 seal the I/c to the shell , so any and all air has to pass through the I/c and rad before entering the engine bay ( no short cuts )
4 lag/wrap/coat your manifold and turbo
5 as said above check everything is up to scratch

A rad should keep a engine cool with only 1/4 of its surface area truly exposed ,
Another fact to take into account is the fins on the I/c because if they are to tight that will also make things warmer

AstoN_B

iTrader: (1)

It does keep cool on the move. I want it to be more efficient at slow/almost no speed. It never runs hot when the fans are working, but I don't want to rely on them running all the time cause they can't get enough air to the rad.

In my opinion the fan should go off again within a minute or so unless its a boiling hot day.

Time to get the notepad out and do some dodgy looking sketches which resemble my car

Rogeyboy

iTrader: (2)

Ive been through this with my car, its a nightmare...
I ran a radtec front mount and an airtec alloy rad and turbo cooler. Even with normal crusing (14:1afr) the temps would still get hot enough for the standard fan switch to kick the fans in (around 96c) if i booted it (11.5-12afr) i'd get over 100c very quickly which is too hot for my liking! I saw 110c once!
I tried fans in front of the cooler, between the cooler and rad, removed completely for more airflow, ive added an 82c stat and drilled a small hole in it to improve flow, i sealed the ic and rad together and all to no improvement!
So, i removed the radtec ic and fitted a standard ic, the temps never go above 90c now unless stationary where the fans kick in and cool it down within 30/40seconds.
Im currently looking for a single pass ic like yours Aston, but i'll forget that if you are having issues too... The other option is a decent charge cooler setup like Rob has said! With 1 or 2 motorbike rads at the front of the car to cool the charge water. Focus rs chargecooler pump with a pace charge cooler and controller.
Unless i can find a decent IC that wont restrict the airflow to my rad!

AstoN_B

iTrader: (1)

Only problems i have is sitting in traffic without fan working, but I want a more efficient solution so I dont have to rely on the fans in traffic, I'm also not sure how good my fans are/blade design etc.

I considered re-rewiring the fan with its own relay so it can run longer but again that's not a cooler solution just making this more heavy duty.

I'm sure I've seen someone's car on here with side by side cooler and rad custom made. Can't find it though. Sure it was red.

zippyobrien

iTrader: (2)

Trying to find pictures of my mates fiesta

Running a air tech radmand intercooler with twin fans between. But the front bumper has been de foamed and the whole I cooler is in the bumper with the center bar out. There's quite a gap between the rad and intercooler ( 60-70mm ) and its got ally coiling all the way round. And a low temp fan swithx, never ever ever gets hot and fans rarely cut in.

In fact I think it runs slightly cold. Going to be putting a std fan switch and thermo in it.

zippyobrien

iTrader: (2)

Also my ibiza has the worlds most cramped engine bay. When you open the bonnet the heat nearly blows your face off. However,

Never gets hot, that to runs over cold ( thermostat gone) but I think it's due to it having a secondary electric water pump

Rogeyboy

iTrader: (2)

I have wondered that perhaps my water pump isnt upto the job...

AstoN_B

iTrader: (1)

I think your test proves otherwise.

Solution appears to be, fill the system with something that dissipates heat more efficiently, or get more air to the rad. They never overheated as standard, so im after a no compromise solution. I don't plan on more power, whatever it makes at 20+ psi is great for me. In a year or so i might want more power but that'll require much more money which is going into my cab.

Going to get some plans sketched and source a couple cossy coolers to get made into one. If its looking promising i'll be contacting the usual suspects about a custom rad and cooler, and also a local engineer or two also.

First on the list: polystyrene blocks to make some mock ups...

makaveli96

But surely having the twin fans in front of the rad will cool it down better as the rad gets very hot rather than having it in front of the intercooler.

AstoN_B

iTrader: (1)

Yeah but it's gotta get its air from somewhere and with the cooler so close there's a lot of turbulence. There really isn't much air moving through if you put your hand above the gearbox you'll feel little movement.

Fan on my 3i with original shroud created a fair bit of air movement!!

Think of a desk fan, moves plenty of air and you get a breeze but if you hold it really close the amount of air it moves drops rapidly. The shape of the blades and amount of them effects the air differently. But if you restrict the air both sides of a fan it's going to chop the air as much as it'll move it in the intended direction.

That's getting a little deep into the physics and fluid dynamics etc. I have a semi solid plan, need to get an act measuring device pronto for the before temps to make sure I don't end up making things much worse.

Rogeyboy

iTrader: (2)

Well i hope my cooling system is good, because i can't run the car on the standard IC. Ive capped the boost to 12psi and the acts still get rather hot pretty quickly lol!

Fiesta Turbos with a big front mount on have a massive 100mm gap between the ic and the rad and when you look at them front on, you can see loads of the rad above the ic.
We need a full front mount ic which is half the height of the rad so it can sit at the bottom of it.

Rogeyboy

iTrader: (2)

What about these forge double depth intercoolers? Could run one of them with water inj im thinking?

BEEFRS

I have Rst running 200hp and the set up i have consists of a Proalloy intercooler which sits in front of a large capacity alloy rad, i have twin fans sat in front of cooler and i also have an Airtec turbo rad it all works incredibly well my fans never come in unless the car is sat for about 30mins even on full chat for a long time the temps never go above qtr way its the best set up i've had and i've owned lots of RST's including a 280hp 2.1zvh i will post some pics up tonight when i get home so you can see

Rogeyboy

iTrader: (2)

Look forward to seeing the pics and what are the inlet/act temps?

studabear

I hope my temps don't become a issue, my last cvh ran hotter than the previous 2 I had in the bay, having said that the last cvh had loads of rust that I removed from the water jacket.

Time will tell, I've fitted a new ford water pump to the zetec and once running I might add some water wetter.

zvh

i run a custom thick core radtec intercoller and radiator with a reverse charge carrier and 82deg stat and fan switch my intake air temps never go above 30 even with the antilag on !! degrees and water temps very rairly ever see over 90 max as displayed by my secs monitor accuratley it has twin spal fans and a mocal 12 row oil cooler with remote stat my bumper isnt cut out like a saxo but it helps to leave a nice gap between the rad and intercooler if you have the room .
never an issue on my car it amazes me all these cooling issues mine actually runs cooler than my new 62 plate huyandai i20 1.4diesel !!!!!!!!!!!! with 2600 miles on the clock
and the huyandai doesnt run 2.06 bar of boost

AstoN_B

iTrader: (1)

So have you got a couple pics of your setup?

muz

When I had the RST on the road I used a standard rad with a GRS on front and twin Kenlowes. Never had a problem even when it was running lean (so very hot) in the middle of summer. The new set up I have should handle anything I throw at it but I'm yet to test it and its not exactly a cheap option!

jonny s2

iTrader: (12)

i ran standard rads, with a pace charge cooler with great results upto around 250hp

then i changed to an airtec front mount using two kenlows and a standard rad which was also great

Rogeyboy

iTrader: (2)

So why is it some of us struggle with high coolant temps with a front mount ic fitted?