rolling road session spoilt, boost tails off at 5000 rpm, CAMS FAILED !
19-05-2010, 07:06 PM
#1
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rolling road session spoilt, boost tails off at 5000 rpm, CAMS FAILED !
hi everyone.
my car is at mikeanics in cheshire for a set up on the dyno.
Got the call today to say that my engine is healthy and running well but the boost is tailing off at 5000 rpm.
The car made 170 bhp but would do more if it wasnt for the boost issue.
Has anyone got any ideas on what the problem could be ??????
my engine spec....
new hybrid turbo
new -31 actuator
msd chip
grs front mount
ported & polished head
samco hoses
piper cam with new ford valve springs
071c plugs
exhaust & air filter
bailey dump valve
any ideas ??? please help thanks
my car is at mikeanics in cheshire for a set up on the dyno.
Got the call today to say that my engine is healthy and running well but the boost is tailing off at 5000 rpm.
The car made 170 bhp but would do more if it wasnt for the boost issue.
Has anyone got any ideas on what the problem could be ??????
my engine spec....
new hybrid turbo
new -31 actuator
msd chip
grs front mount
ported & polished head
samco hoses
piper cam with new ford valve springs
071c plugs
exhaust & air filter
bailey dump valve
any ideas ??? please help thanks
Last edited by OLDSKOOLRYAN; 26-05-2010 at 08:49 PM. Reason: need to add pics
19-05-2010, 07:25 PM
#2
What do you mean by hybrid turbo, what is it's exact spec?
If it only makes 170bhp then either it's a standard turbo, boost leak, weak actuator, heavily worn cam, etc..etc..
But your tuner should be able to test for most of those things, unless of course he doesnt know what he is doing?!
lol
If it only makes 170bhp then either it's a standard turbo, boost leak, weak actuator, heavily worn cam, etc..etc..
But your tuner should be able to test for most of those things, unless of course he doesnt know what he is doing?!
lol
19-05-2010, 07:41 PM
#3
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well im no mechanic but the invoice for the turbo states t3 hybrid 360, cut back blades.
the cam is new
actuator is new (msd)
my tuner is going to investigate further in the morning, im just trying to get a head start and maybe save myself some money.
the cam is new
actuator is new (msd)
my tuner is going to investigate further in the morning, im just trying to get a head start and maybe save myself some money.
19-05-2010, 07:59 PM
#4
Hmm.. sounds like a "Stage 1" with 360deg thrust bearing and cut back blades which improves exhaust housing flow but limits maximum spool, if it is then 170bhp is a little low but not that far off normal mate!
Some will disagree with me but I and many others have never seen more than around 185bhp out of a stock turbo, and the cut back blades may limit it further.
Thats what I'd be looking at if everything else is found to be good.
From TT website..
S106 Ford Escort RS Turbo Stage 1
Power output 130-180 BHP
Boost 8-18 PSI
7° cutback turbine assembly
270° screwed thrust bearing
£415 + VAT - Buy now
Although you have a 360deg bearing this doesnt improve flow/power!
Some will disagree with me but I and many others have never seen more than around 185bhp out of a stock turbo, and the cut back blades may limit it further.
Thats what I'd be looking at if everything else is found to be good.
From TT website..
S106 Ford Escort RS Turbo Stage 1
Power output 130-180 BHP
Boost 8-18 PSI
7° cutback turbine assembly
270° screwed thrust bearing
£415 + VAT - Buy now
Although you have a 360deg bearing this doesnt improve flow/power!
Last edited by Karlos G; 19-05-2010 at 08:03 PM.
19-05-2010, 08:23 PM
#6
i would have to agree with the above with my knowledge of turbos.
doesn't sound like the compressor is bigger or that the exhaust housing is bigger either.
i reckon with a bigger exhaust housing it'll let you pull more power, but a bigger compressor side would let you have more boost without it getting quite as hot.
either way, the tuner should know why it is hitting a brick wall.
doesn't sound like the compressor is bigger or that the exhaust housing is bigger either.
i reckon with a bigger exhaust housing it'll let you pull more power, but a bigger compressor side would let you have more boost without it getting quite as hot.
either way, the tuner should know why it is hitting a brick wall.
19-05-2010, 08:24 PM
#7
in regards to why boost is tailing off, then the compressor can't draw in enough air and as the engine revs more, the demand for volume increases and the turbo simply can't flow enough highly compressed air. so in effect the pressure of boosted air will drop.
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19-05-2010, 08:34 PM
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ok cheers,
im a bit fed up with tuners so far, if he cant sort it ,then thats two tuners who have let me down regarding my boost problem. 1st was msd they diagnosed weak valve springs, which i have since replaced.
mikeanics also mentioned valve springs untill he realised they head been replaced. they now think its a turbo related problem ? i thought they meant it may be faulty but they may have meant what you have mentioned.
if it is the issue you have suggested then i would be happy to have less psi for better boost throughout the rev range.
could this cure it ??
many thanks
im a bit fed up with tuners so far, if he cant sort it ,then thats two tuners who have let me down regarding my boost problem. 1st was msd they diagnosed weak valve springs, which i have since replaced.
mikeanics also mentioned valve springs untill he realised they head been replaced. they now think its a turbo related problem ? i thought they meant it may be faulty but they may have meant what you have mentioned.
if it is the issue you have suggested then i would be happy to have less psi for better boost throughout the rev range.
could this cure it ??
many thanks
19-05-2010, 09:03 PM
#9
What Sean (xr2wishy) says is spot on!
On my old engine that was a very similair spec to yours my stock T3 would peek at 17psi and then gradually drop to 11psi as the revs increased, you could force it to hold a bit more with an electronic boost controller, but really a higher flowing turbo is what is needed.
If this is your problem of course!?
IMO very rarely do we see weak valve springs on these engines, as they are really heavy to start with!
On my old engine that was a very similair spec to yours my stock T3 would peek at 17psi and then gradually drop to 11psi as the revs increased, you could force it to hold a bit more with an electronic boost controller, but really a higher flowing turbo is what is needed.
If this is your problem of course!?
IMO very rarely do we see weak valve springs on these engines, as they are really heavy to start with!
20-05-2010, 04:55 PM
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still no joy. tuner has checked the turbo & actuator, swapped actuators etc.
he now thinks its cam / valve related.
i have a receipt for a complete head rebuild inc piper bp 285t cam. the car has done less than 2000 miles since.
any ideas???????????????????
thanks
he now thinks its cam / valve related.
i have a receipt for a complete head rebuild inc piper bp 285t cam. the car has done less than 2000 miles since.
any ideas???????????????????
thanks
20-05-2010, 06:05 PM
#17
I agree with the flow comments. Mine was having the same problem where the std turbo was struggling especially with the FMIC. The tuner ended up replumbing the actuator vacuum hose into the cross over pipe. I have no idea why he would do this ( maybe someone could shed some light), but the boost peaked at 17 and held at around 14/15.
20-05-2010, 06:18 PM
#18
If he didnt swap the turbo for a bigger one, then there is no way of knowing if it's that or not!
Cam could have shit itself, so yes whip it out and meassure the lobes, and lifters to check they are in tolerance.
Chopshop85, that was so the actuator responded to actual boost pressure making it to the inlet rather than just boost pressure from the compressor housing (it allows for boost drop through IC , etc..).
My gut still says your turbo is the problem, well not even really a problem, just under spec'd for what you want.
Cam could have shit itself, so yes whip it out and meassure the lobes, and lifters to check they are in tolerance.
Chopshop85, that was so the actuator responded to actual boost pressure making it to the inlet rather than just boost pressure from the compressor housing (it allows for boost drop through IC , etc..).
My gut still says your turbo is the problem, well not even really a problem, just under spec'd for what you want.
20-05-2010, 06:24 PM
#20
back to Karlos on this again if not the cam.
think about having a small pipe, you can only get so much flow through it, so you upgrade to a bigger one to get more flow out of it.
a turbo is the same thig really, if your exhaust housing doesn't get bigger than the limit will still be the same.
think about having a small pipe, you can only get so much flow through it, so you upgrade to a bigger one to get more flow out of it.
a turbo is the same thig really, if your exhaust housing doesn't get bigger than the limit will still be the same.
lol
20-05-2010, 09:05 PM
#27
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i was runing standard cam springs and followers and the guy who was RR my car had problems with boost and getting power. It turned out to be a dodgy follower that was causing valve lift
20-05-2010, 09:25 PM
#28
I'm using 20 year old springs as far as I know and have no probs with a rev limit of 7000rpm and thats with a Newmans cam and solid lifters.
24-05-2010, 08:25 PM
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hi everyone, just a quick update.
i have been through my history again and inspected the head rebuild invoice again.
Its an engineers invoice, just for the head rebuild and parts fitted to the head.
so im guessing the previous owner of my car fitted the head him self.
and im also guessing the cam wasnt "run in" properly. (2500rpm for twenty mins ??????)
An engineer friend of mine has offered to check my cam tolerances at the weekend, i have emailed piper for the tolerances and not had a reply, but i found this info on there web site
http://www.pipercams.co.uk/pipercams...n=8&engine=122
will this be enough inormation or do i need more ???
thanks again for all your help
i have been through my history again and inspected the head rebuild invoice again.
Its an engineers invoice, just for the head rebuild and parts fitted to the head.
so im guessing the previous owner of my car fitted the head him self.
and im also guessing the cam wasnt "run in" properly. (2500rpm for twenty mins ??????)
An engineer friend of mine has offered to check my cam tolerances at the weekend, i have emailed piper for the tolerances and not had a reply, but i found this info on there web site
http://www.pipercams.co.uk/pipercams...n=8&engine=122
will this be enough inormation or do i need more ???
thanks again for all your help
24-05-2010, 09:06 PM
#30
guys i brought a piper cam kit before for my old rst turbo with ...
ahmed stage2 chip
-31 standard turbo bleed valve
piper 285t kit
radtech front mount
exhaust and good filter ect
and anything above 14psi and i would get valve bounce with brand new piper springs fitted so i put double valve springs in and afterwards it was peaking 19psi and holding around 16psi and made 192bhp ...
and another one i had that had a problem like this was a sticking wastegate and ive brought faulty actuators so could be anything
ahmed stage2 chip
-31 standard turbo bleed valve
piper 285t kit
radtech front mount
exhaust and good filter ect
and anything above 14psi and i would get valve bounce with brand new piper springs fitted so i put double valve springs in and afterwards it was peaking 19psi and holding around 16psi and made 192bhp ...
and another one i had that had a problem like this was a sticking wastegate and ive brought faulty actuators so could be anything
24-05-2010, 09:41 PM
#32
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WOW !
£142 plus vat for piper double springs. best make sure it is the springs before i buy some !
Its got ford springs in at the mo
matt lewis is sellin newman double valve springs for £65, will these be ok with my piper cam ??
cheers
£142 plus vat for piper double springs. best make sure it is the springs before i buy some !
Its got ford springs in at the mo
matt lewis is sellin newman double valve springs for £65, will these be ok with my piper cam ??
cheers
Last edited by OLDSKOOLRYAN; 24-05-2010 at 10:15 PM.
25-05-2010, 05:04 AM
#33
the other thing to do is take off the actuator and test it..... ian ball at power engineering would sort this car in no time at all i know some people will say dont take it there but the only time i had problems there was when chris todd was there ..... it was ian who sorted my old cars mate.
might be worth just giving him a bell....
and how much does the boost drop because if it completely drops off then it could be what karlos said and be the turbo
26-05-2010, 08:48 PM
#38
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can anyone tell me the exact procedure for fitting a new cam please.
i know i have to fit new tappets at the same time.
i think i have read somewhere that it needs to run in at2500rpm for twenty mins ??? is this correct
thanks for all your help guys
i know i have to fit new tappets at the same time.
i think i have read somewhere that it needs to run in at2500rpm for twenty mins ??? is this correct
thanks for all your help guys
26-05-2010, 08:53 PM
#39
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not 2500, different cam different proceedures, when i fitted my kent cvh34 i held it at 4k for about 8 mins. I was told this on the forum so it may be the wrong proceedure but it seemed to work
26-05-2010, 09:41 PM
#40
rs turbo from Greece...
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