FTAO Rick and any other MS users with Bosch 403 Grey Injectors SORTED NOW!
02-05-2010, 05:17 PM
#42
I dont know if going bigger will be too much, might start running into trouble with getting a good idle, 630cc is pretty big as it is! 
lol
Standard Bosch MFI pump as far as I know, if your still at 3bar the fuel pump should not make any difference unless the old one was struggling at high RPM's?
lolStandard Bosch MFI pump as far as I know, if your still at 3bar the fuel pump should not make any difference unless the old one was struggling at high RPM's?
my pump was definitely running out of puff up the power, hence the need for a much better pump, flows at 165Lt/hr, whereas the 910 as common on rst's is only 130Lt/Ht.
apparently rated for upto 500bhp, i think this is a little optimistic i think 350-400 may be more reasonable, bearing in mind the 044 pumps flow 200Lt/Hr.
lol
02-05-2010, 05:33 PM
#44
i have no idea how my 440cc ones are doing to be honest, i'm just still getting over fuelling on 16psi of boost, not got the balls to treat the box to 22psi much as it's poorly already.
if they can't cope i'll just hold the power back till after my wedding, only 3 months left to keep not spending on car though
if they can't cope i'll just hold the power back till after my wedding, only 3 months left to keep not spending on car though
02-05-2010, 05:36 PM
#45
Yeah I didnt think to look until Project rs said he had maxed his VXR's out so thought i'd better have a look... loaded up my most recent log and was shocked to see Duty Cycle 1 hitting 106% @ full load! Promptly turned the boost down a bought some Greys! lol
lol
02-05-2010, 06:27 PM
#48
Yes mate you need bigger injectors, big time!!
Your are indeed hitting 140% injector duty at 5300rpm, 18.5psi, and are dangerously lean!!!
Looking at your log i'd say around 10psi is about your limit in those injectors, as your hitting 85% at 5100rpm at 10psi, even that might be too much if it holds it to the limiter!?
Your are indeed hitting 140% injector duty at 5300rpm, 18.5psi, and are dangerously lean!!!
Looking at your log i'd say around 10psi is about your limit in those injectors, as your hitting 85% at 5100rpm at 10psi, even that might be too much if it holds it to the limiter!?
Last edited by Karlos G; 02-05-2010 at 06:28 PM.
02-05-2010, 07:01 PM
#51
yeah i adjusted it and something happened with the pressure for sure all my map went ultralean, i had to map it out, which resulted in the DC going mad.
after new pump was fitted and rechecking pressure (which had to go up again for some reason) i pulled loads out of the ve table.
i have been lookng at bigger injectors and may just hold off for some siemens ones, 600cc should keep me safe for a while, odd how a cossie only needs them that big when they are hitting big power, must be down to the BSFC.
me being on a 1.8zvh is different again.
after new pump was fitted and rechecking pressure (which had to go up again for some reason) i pulled loads out of the ve table.
i have been lookng at bigger injectors and may just hold off for some siemens ones, 600cc should keep me safe for a while, odd how a cossie only needs them that big when they are hitting big power, must be down to the BSFC.
me being on a 1.8zvh is different again.
02-05-2010, 07:46 PM
#53
it's daft ain't it lol!
i was informed by more than one person that they would be fine for 300bhp on a zvh, clearly they weren't aware of the DC they were on.
the alternative is a second bank of injectors and a couple more drivers for them, i have spare 375cc ones i got a long while back before these.
i was informed by more than one person that they would be fine for 300bhp on a zvh, clearly they weren't aware of the DC they were on.
the alternative is a second bank of injectors and a couple more drivers for them, i have spare 375cc ones i got a long while back before these.
03-05-2010, 04:25 PM
#55
looked for bigger ones and think i'm going to get some siemens deka 60Lb ones, works out around Ł150 delivered from the states new if you look around enough.
maybe overkill, but they have 4 nozzles so mist nicely and will be able to handle more fuel pressure upto 87.5psi if needed to give even more flow.
maybe overkill, but they have 4 nozzles so mist nicely and will be able to handle more fuel pressure upto 87.5psi if needed to give even more flow.
03-05-2010, 05:34 PM
#59
about the same as the company i found, injectors were cheaper but postage was more, worked out at Ł143 all in so no odds between them.
just wish i had the cash ready, will have to wait till friday and check finances, see if i can flog my 375cc and 440cc ones.
just wish i had the cash ready, will have to wait till friday and check finances, see if i can flog my 375cc and 440cc ones.
04-05-2010, 09:38 PM
#65
race you to fitting and mapping lol.
should be nice to see low DC figures again, can't believe how bad it was, that's what happens when you take your eye off the ball a bit i guess.
still got heatsoak issues effecting the MAT, but running a little richer on idle so at least it's not getting as hot now, runs fine after a minute or less.
should be nice to see low DC figures again, can't believe how bad it was, that's what happens when you take your eye off the ball a bit i guess.
still got heatsoak issues effecting the MAT, but running a little richer on idle so at least it's not getting as hot now, runs fine after a minute or less.
04-05-2010, 10:12 PM
#66
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After reading this post i seriously think i have under sized my injectors. Im running standard turbo 1600 cvh with cam and stage 3 head. The injectors i have are 380cc @3bar. I have not yet run these so i cant do a recording to send to you. As a ball park figure what do you think boost and power i can run? Im also runnin 044 cossie pump if hat makes a difference.
05-05-2010, 08:15 AM
#68
as with all the info on injectors it's pot luck whether they can do what they say.
beiges flow at 226cc and they get used all the time for around 200bhp along with a 195 chip, however what is worrying is that they shouldn't even be able to run safe at that level.
in fact on a turbo engine not running monster power they should only be able to push out around 47.5bhp each, so a total of 190bhp and that is a well tuned engine with a BSFC value of 0.42.
but as we learn a lot of engines with levels of mild tune don't return that value, so knock it down a step to a BSFC of 0.47 and you get 42.4 bhp per injector, so only a total of 169.6 bhp and i'm taking the 95% duty values which isn't ideal as you really want to have a max of 80% to allow for variance in air and engine temp to fuel adequately across the ve tables (this would now be 35.7bhp per injector)
think about an even worse engine with a worse efficiency, the rs turbo engine as standard for instance could possibly have a BSFC of 0.52, you can see where this is going, for a safe setup this is roughly where you want to be planning an engines fuelling with duty cycles of 80%:
32.3bhp per injector now, total of 129.2 bhp, this is for a lightly modified engine.
i've done this little write up to show how inappropriate injector sizing can be sometimes and that there is little room for movement on some setup, in this case beige injectors really are pushing their boundaries on a daily basis when fitted with a 195 chip as a package.
to put things into perspective the 60Lb injectors myself and Karlos have chosen will flow enough for a duty cycle of 80%, fuel pressure of 3BAR (these can run 6BAR salefly though) and a BSFC of 0.52 for the worst cas escenario will fuel enough for 92.3bhp per injector, enough to fuel our engines at a minimum of 369.2bhp, this is taking safe calculations etc.
look at the bottom of this link to show the flow rates and power output of a particular size of injector:
http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tableifc.htm#ITABLE
beiges flow at 226cc and they get used all the time for around 200bhp along with a 195 chip, however what is worrying is that they shouldn't even be able to run safe at that level.
in fact on a turbo engine not running monster power they should only be able to push out around 47.5bhp each, so a total of 190bhp and that is a well tuned engine with a BSFC value of 0.42.
but as we learn a lot of engines with levels of mild tune don't return that value, so knock it down a step to a BSFC of 0.47 and you get 42.4 bhp per injector, so only a total of 169.6 bhp and i'm taking the 95% duty values which isn't ideal as you really want to have a max of 80% to allow for variance in air and engine temp to fuel adequately across the ve tables (this would now be 35.7bhp per injector)
think about an even worse engine with a worse efficiency, the rs turbo engine as standard for instance could possibly have a BSFC of 0.52, you can see where this is going, for a safe setup this is roughly where you want to be planning an engines fuelling with duty cycles of 80%:
32.3bhp per injector now, total of 129.2 bhp, this is for a lightly modified engine.
i've done this little write up to show how inappropriate injector sizing can be sometimes and that there is little room for movement on some setup, in this case beige injectors really are pushing their boundaries on a daily basis when fitted with a 195 chip as a package.
to put things into perspective the 60Lb injectors myself and Karlos have chosen will flow enough for a duty cycle of 80%, fuel pressure of 3BAR (these can run 6BAR salefly though) and a BSFC of 0.52 for the worst cas escenario will fuel enough for 92.3bhp per injector, enough to fuel our engines at a minimum of 369.2bhp, this is taking safe calculations etc.
look at the bottom of this link to show the flow rates and power output of a particular size of injector:
http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tableifc.htm#ITABLE
Last edited by xr2wishy; 05-05-2010 at 08:24 AM.
05-05-2010, 09:10 AM
#71
say we're on no boost, then you can run injectors at 3BAR (43.5psi), then say we chuck in 20psi of boost, then the differential across the injector must still be 43.5psi, so we need to get 63.5psi of fuel pressure into the injector to compensate the pressure change.
Then say we chuck 30psi of boost into the mix, then we'd need 73.5psi of fuel pressure to keep the same differential to keep fuelling linear, which a rising rate fuel pressure reg should do.
the problem is making sure the fuel pump can cope at this level, hence the need for uprating them.
i noticed a big difference when going from an rsturbo pump to my 979 pump, flows a lot more and handles higher pressure better, i actually pulled ve values out of my table when i did this. my next pump would be the 413 (IIRC) 044 type pump or a walbro 255 one if i have any fuelling issues again up the revs/boost.
05-05-2010, 04:36 PM
#72
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05-05-2010, 05:09 PM
#74
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ok. Im realy confused now lol. Have i missed something when i used this equation to work out my injector size?
http://www.area-six.co.uk/Performanc...l%20system.htm
According to that calculation my 380cc injectors should be able to cope with 81 bhp per cylinder.
http://www.area-six.co.uk/Performanc...l%20system.htm
According to that calculation my 380cc injectors should be able to cope with 81 bhp per cylinder.
05-05-2010, 06:37 PM
#75
It's wrong lol At least for our engines anyway...
Based on that your BSFC is about 0.35 which is crazy!
I think our BSFC is much higher than that because my estimated bhp is around 220-240bhp and my 480cc injectors where at 95% duty which puts my BSFC at about 0.67!!
lol
At least for our engines anyway...Based on that your BSFC is about 0.35 which is crazy!
I think our BSFC is much higher than that because my estimated bhp is around 220-240bhp and my 480cc injectors where at 95% duty which puts my BSFC at about 0.67!!
lol
Last edited by Karlos G; 05-05-2010 at 06:42 PM.
07-05-2010, 03:26 PM
#78
race you to fitting and mapping lol.
should be nice to see low DC figures again, can't believe how bad it was, that's what happens when you take your eye off the ball a bit i guess.
still got heatsoak issues effecting the MAT, but running a little richer on idle so at least it's not getting as hot now, runs fine after a minute or less.
should be nice to see low DC figures again, can't believe how bad it was, that's what happens when you take your eye off the ball a bit i guess.
still got heatsoak issues effecting the MAT, but running a little richer on idle so at least it's not getting as hot now, runs fine after a minute or less.
lolFitted my Deka's today and all is well again!
Went out and did a little bit of mapping to get things close to where they need to be up to about 16psi, injector duty was peeking at about 59% so plenty of fuel left for whatever boost I want to run!
Last edited by Karlos G; 07-05-2010 at 03:29 PM.