Taylor

iTrader: (1)

What is exactly required to run Cossie management on a CVH Turbo?(i.e everything that is required)

Thanks in advance!

JimmyBoy

iTrader: (1)

http://www.escortrsturbo.co.uk/forum...p?showforum=57

Turbocabbie

Depends upon how you want to do it and what manifolds you are going to use etc

www.oddkiddcreations.co.uk is a good source of info on the subject

Andy_R

iTrader: (3)

Taylor if its for a CVH or ZVH gimmi a bell

Billy_RS

iTrader: (5)

Can someone copy and paste from the rs turbo mania site please as i dont have a log in for the site, and dont really want one

Cheers

Taylor

iTrader: (1)

Think it's gona be CVH Andy mate but that's not 100% yet! Still at work the now so al gee you a phone later mate!

Taylor

iTrader: (1)

Jimmyboy,Unseen menace and Billy RST Much appreciated cheers guys!

TGTURBO

AS ABOVE , JANO AT ODDKIDDCREATIONS.CO.UK,
BLOKE KNOWS HIS STUFF
HTH

Billy_RS

iTrader: (5)

What does HTH mean?

StephenC

hope that helps

grsford

iTrader: (3)

best money i ever spent on my car

get in touch with jano at oddkiddcreations.co.uk

what spec are you looking to run?

Billy_RS

iTrader: (5)

Thanks

Taylor

iTrader: (1)

Cheers to all for the input!

Taylor

iTrader: (1)

No finalised yet mate whether it is going to be CVH or ZVH yet but will be along the lines of steel rods and crank,forged pistons,big valve head and a few other goodies including a Quaife straight cut box!

sas

Just to put another idea across,
Gotech its about Ł400 inc loom and anyone can map it.
You also dont need a trigger wheel, it gets it info from the dizzy - easy.

Simon.

Taylor

iTrader: (1)

Awrite Simon,did you get the small problems ironed out that you were talking about at Knockhill the other week?

Thats great for that info by the way,is that what you are running on the motor?

1feathers

Here you go...

This is a list of what parts are needed / what parts need modified in order to convert over to cossie management.

Cossie Ecu
Cossie engine loom
Cossie air charge sensor
Cossie coolant sensor
Cossie throttle sensor ( PF01 if L6 ecu or PF09 if L8 )
Cossie idle speed control valve ( and remote housing if using ERST throttle body ) i have a remote housing if you need one
Cossie throttle body or ERST one works just aswell
Cossie ignition amplifier and heatsink
Injectors ( dependant on engine spec )
Map sensor ( dependant on engine spec ) get a 3bar, then you can run more than 1 bar boost
Efi inlet manifold - FRST / XR2i / XR3i ( will need some welding and re tapping to fit parts )
Efi fuel rail and fuel pressure regulator you will need a 4x4 regulater
Efi cylinder head or Mfi to Efi adaptor plate ( Grove Garage Ł100, 01708 726518) 8 month wait for plate, i can get one if needed
Camshaft position sensor and brackets ( I can supply for Ł60 )
Cranshaft position sensing equipment;
Can use modified original bottom pulley or
1800 Cvh bottom pulley with timing ring ( 36 – 1 teeth )
1800 Cvh crank sensor and bracket
1800 Cvh alternator pulley
1800 Cvh alternator belt
1800 Cvh alternator bracket and adjusting arm

Note, all the 1800 Cvh parts require slight modification to fit and work.

Modifications needed for weber parts

Air charge sensor - M14 x 1.5mm thread if you are using efi inlet, fit this in the o/e air temp hole, either drill o/e sensor then tap it, or fill and tap
Coolant sensor - again fit in o/e position, either use a blanking plug and drill and tap or fill and tap
Alternator brkt - 4mm machined off driver side to line up with crank pulley
Remove spacer between fan and pulley on alternator
Pull off pick up ring on crank pulley and smooth out so it spins freely, remove all teeth except 4 at 90 degrees to each other, add 2 grubs screw to lock it
5mm washer / spacer needed between crank bolt and pulley ( aswell as original one )
Cut down 1800 cvh crank sensor brkt just above the bottom fixing holes
Manifold needs welding and shaping for throttle body

Loom.
Crank sensor - swap the 2 wires round in the plug if using EEC sensor
Cam sensor - swap the 2 wires round in the plug if using EEC sensor

Alex_86

iTrader: (2)

sas

The stronger valve springs that I require are here, but I have had zero time to get them fitted. That was my problem.

I was running Gotech on my last motor and I was suppose to be running Gotech on this motor.

S.

Turbocabbie

Why was you supposed to be running Gotech on your current motor and why is this not the case

sas

I was all set to instal Gotech Pro-X, but I had my mind changed by an old motorsport contact to Pi/Pectel! I wish I had stuck with Gotech because there are many more features on the Pro-X and it is far more user friendly plus you can configure it yourself, compared to having to wait days for someone from Pectel to send you an update file!

S.

Versus_Creations

iTrader: (1)

SAS


Pectel cant be compared to Gotec or any other budget management system such like.

Taylor

iTrader: (1)

Sound mate,hopefully the motor will be up and running without any problems very shortly!

Cheers for the management info!

You heading to Crail this month?

snedboy

What is the actual benefits of fitting cosworth management then?

And yes im too lazy to join oddkid and read up

Garage19

Why on earth would you go to all thet hassle and cost just to fit 20 year old management from a different car?

Do you homework and you will find there are much better products out there for the money.

Cossie management conversions on RSTs are a waste of time and money these days!

...and apart from ones that sell cossie management conversions i think you will find pretty much most tuners will agree on that.

sas

I challange you to define the diffarences!

S.

Turbocabbie

I personally choose Weber Marelli management as used on the Cosworths and Lancia Delta HF Integrale as it is proven to work well enough that it is still competitive and suitable for the task today after 20 years, this can clearly be seen as company's such as MSD are still able to release improvements to the system and sell them
I also have the belief that if this management is suitable for running large power cosworths with multiple injectors it most certainly would be up to the tasks and demands placed on it by my CVH
Upon investigation from my personal perspective I was unable to find another ECU with the features I desired including coil pack for less than I paid for my ECU - These ECU's still have a good resale value and demand as clearly indicated when they become available which is an additional bonus..

Unlike many of the skilled individuals here I do not have the ability to map a car and the amount of experienced tuners who understand the Weber Marelli management is a major consideration for myself... I have to ask, Will MSD live map many of these alternatives, will Amhed map many of these alternatives, Will Turbosystems, NMS,........ you always get the same answer when talking about Weber Marelli unlike when asking about other systems

I never quite understand the statement regarding the age of the system, I have a new loom, new injectors, new coil pack.. but I must admit that part which encounters a great deal of wear being the ECU is second hand.
By the same statement though we should all be replacing our Recaro interiors as these being 20 years old do not have the lumber support of newer seats... hell my car does'nt even have an airbag its that's old, perhaps I should scrap it.... Why do people drive 20 year old Cosworths when its apparent that the EVO is simply a more capable car.

People fit management from a different car for the same reason they fit alternative management which also was not designed for their specific car and that is simply because the original system was not up to the task

I simply look for Value for money and wide choices... when I called up many reknown and respected tuners and spoke about management systems they had experience of and would map, the so called better options infact limited my choices... and it was this that was the deciding factor for myself

matt p

Jano why do you say that?

fezzajsy

iTrader: (9)

soryy to hijack thread..any info on using GOTECH on a zetec turbo?

Garage19

How can your cossie management be value for money?

Look at the exttra money you have just spent!

Ł150 for Ecu???

Coil pack conversion Ł150-250

New loom Ł350

You mention multiple injectors per cylinder. Most new Ecus do this no probs but from what i undersand cossie stuff needs more mods unless RS500? Ł????

Then you can add some closed loop for decent fuel economy. Nearly all modrn ECus have this as a stock feature. Add it to your cossie Ł250.

ALS, launch control Ł500?

You can spend Ł500 to Ł1500 just to get the features you want added to 20 year old kit when you get them thrown in on every modern ecu starting from Ł350.

matt p

Give jamsport a shout mate, its been done loads of times with good results

fezzajsy

iTrader: (9)

cheeRS man

Turbocabbie

I got a my ECU which is capable of Water Injection, Antilag, Air Injectors and Coil Pack for less than you state as the price for ALS alone
These ECU's are still going for pretty much what I paid for it, which in effect means that If I broke the car today I could sell the ECU pretty much for what I paid for it.... thus in effect I loose minimal money if any on it.

However feel free to point out another ECU which I could have brought for the same Ł350 capable of coil pack, water injection, air injectors, antilag... which NMS, MSD, Turbosystems, Amhed are experienced with and willing to map.... and then point out which ones can still continue to sell for that money on the second hand market.

Before making my choice, I called a few reputable tuners and asked if they mapped 'specific' management systems... the widest choice of tuners simply came from using cossie management
Having a wide choice of experienced people who can map my car is a consideration as having to take it hundreds of miles to get someone to map it as with some of the alternatives is simply not viable for me.

Although I have stated the reasons why I personally selected cossie management and why I still believe it is the wisest choice for myself, nobody has explained to me why it is so bad or not suitable for the job... Other than to state there are newer ECU's which do all these things which was never ever disputed...
The most common complaint about the system appears to be the age which I find ironic as nobody advises RS500 owners to scrap their cars which are around the same age as this ECU and buy an EVO as its newer and can be purchased for less... Wonder why this is

JamboRS

ive got an ava big valve head if your lookin for one

StephenC

found this on another site that BOMBER has written

Cosworth Management

Mechanicals
If you have an MFI head, you can use a 2i/RS inlet manifold but you'll need an adaptor plate to accomodate the Injectors, Ahmed Bayjoo has some of these off the shelf for ÂŁ100 OR you can have your MFi intermediate fuel rail reemed out by a machinist - just take a cossie injector along and tell them that it needs to fit snugly. Ideally you need to use a XR2i or FRST inlet manifold - AND the 2i/RS head (the EFi head and manifold flow better than an MFi setup).

Cam Sensor (Emulation of the 'Phase' Sensor that is inside the Cossie Dizzy): Gadget and Jano make a proper bracket and pick up ring using an EEC-IV Sensor that runs behind the Cam pulley. Gap the sensor to lug at 6 thou.

TDC 'Crank' Sensor: Use the 1800 Sierra CVH bottom pulley and Crank Sensor bracket, this fits straight onto CVH/Zetec and all lines up nice. You'll need the pulley machined down to clear the inner wing and it has a pick up ring on it with 36 - 1 teeth, pull this ring off and get rid of all points exept 4 at 90 degrees to each other, sand out the ring so it slides on the pulley freely, then add 2 grub screws to lock it off.

At TDC one of the pips needs to be inline with the Crank Sensor. The Sierra set up is good because you just set the engine to TDC then move the pick up ring round untill the pip is inline with the Crank Sensor. The Crank Sensor bracket is part of the whole Cambelt cover on the Sierra so you cut the top half off just above the lower 2 mounting holes, the Crank Sensor has adjustable height also, so the gap can be set perfect. If you use this set up, you'll also need the 1800 Alternator pulley, when you fit this, remove the spacer washer that is behind your original pulley and put the new pully straight onto the Alternator Fan, you'll also need the 1800 Alternator bracket, get 4mm machined off this to move the Alternator 4mm towards the passenger side so when you use the Sierra belt, it all runs perfectly in line.

TIP: I used the original ERST pulley - but took 4mm off the Crank side - thus enabling me to just about fit on the 4 toothed part of the Sierra pulley (after i ground off the alternator belt part)! This way i don't loose any space between the chassis rail and pulley! And you can use your existing alternator setup. You will need to make a bracket to mount the crank sensor on (on nothing less than 3mm thick ally).

Don't forget you'll need an Idle Speed Control Valve (ISCV) so you can either use the Cosworth Throttle Body that houses it or you can also use the Escort RSTurbo Throttle Body (the Cosworth TPS fits straight on) and get a remote Idle Speed Control Valve holder from a Lancia Delta Integrale straight from Weber for about ÂŁ25, then you can put the valve wherever you want it. If you use the Cossie Throttle body - you'll need to turn it around 90 degrees so the TPS sits underneath and the ISCV to the drivers side. You will need to fashion a new accelerator bracket or get a ready made alloy one from Gadget or Jano.

The throttle body bolts straight onto an EFi inlet but MFi inlets will require some modification (relocation of the bolt holes).

You also need to swing the TPS 180 degrees around so the plug faces the inlet manifold. To do this you need to file a 'flat' face onto the reverse of the butterfly pin that slots into the TPS.

Cossie Parts required for the conversion
2 Bar (Standard 2wd) MAP Sensor
'Yellow' Injectors (Standard 2wd Cosworth - good for up to 270bhp)
Cosworth Level 6, Level 8 or P8 ECU (you will need a base chip to enable the car to run well enough to get you up and running - Jano can supply you this)
2WD Sapphire Cosworth loom (this will need modding to accommodate the CVH layout - a few wires will need to be extended)
Cosworth Ignition Amplifier
Cosworth Ignition Amplifier Heatsink
Cosworth Water Temperature Sensor
Cosworth Air Charge Sensor (ACT)
Cosworth Throttle Body (You will need to tap new holes in the inlet manifold to fit it if using MFi OR use an ERST throttle body with remote ISCV)
Cosworth 2wd Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) (or 4wd TPS if using Level 8 or P8 ECU and swap round the outer 2 wires on the TPS Plug if using a 2wd loom)
Cosworth Idle Speed Control Valve (ISCV) (If you are using your ERST Throttle Body: Remote holder for ISCV)

1.8 CVH Parts
1.8 CVH OR XR2i/FRST 1.6CVH Crank Sensor (Ford EEC-IV Sensor) - Swap wires round on plug as it is an EEC Sensor not Weber
1.8 CVH Crank Sensor bracket
1.8 CVH Alternator pulley and bracket
1.8 CVH Crankshaft pulley and bracket
1.8 CVH Crankshaft pointer ring and bracket

The Following if you are making a hybrid dizzy
ERST Dizzy
2wd Dizzy
Combining the two Dizzy's is a professional job!

The Following if you are using a Cam Position Sensor to emulate the Phase Sensor in the 2wd Dizzy
16v Zetec Cam Position Sensor (Ford EEC-IV Sensor) - Swap wires round on plug as it is an EEC Sensor not Weber
Cam Sensor Bracket
Cam pickup ring - with two pips at 12 o'clock and 3 o'clock

ERST MFi/FRST EFi Parts
MFI Inlet Manifold (some machining will need doing to this)

OR

EFi inlet manifold

EFI Fuel Rail + Fuel line that screws to it
EFI Fuel Pressure Regulator
MFI Servo Vacuum Line

2 Metres of Fuel Line
Fuel Filter (92FG 9155 AB)
Quick release fittings for filter

Note: You don't need the 1.8CVH bits if you are using 4 lugs welded onto your bottom pulley!

On the Cosworth loom terminating 9 pin multiplug:
Brown and White - (this isn't needed) as they are for the Water Temp Gauge on a Cosworth
Green - goes to your Rev Counter
Black - Ignition Live
Black and Red - Fuel Pump Positive
Red and Blue - Permanent Live, straight to the battery
Earths bolt to the manifold or car chasis.

Also ALWAYS replace the fuses (which are on the Yellow relays - part of the loom) with new items!

Versus_Creations

iTrader: (1)

Really?

Yet Tuners like

Stu @ MSD
Ahmed
Grove
ATM
Paul Hills
APT
OddKidd Creations


To name a few, all offer webber with great results using my setup and components on some of the best cars in the country [PROVEN]


As for hassle???? I think you dont understand what the system is made up from and how it works otherwise you would choose your words better. Yes i know you build this and that, but knocking a system without knowing how and what it is. Is shooting your own feet.

Stu offers a wasted spark driver that has been on the market for less than a year or so, also can run most extras.

If the system was that pointless and expensive etc.. why would stu still be offering the conversion etc..

Value for money there is no better system that can be mapped at any end of the country for not alot of money. Unlike other systems that have catches and scams you dont see untill the w@nker of a tuner stripes you up... Yes we know which tuners they are

Versus_Creations

iTrader: (1)

.SAS

Have you any idea what you are talking about?

Pectel vs Gotec

Please stop this is hurting my sides.





Matt P are you still on the payroll at your tuners?

Garage19

Of course i understand how it works?? And yes, i know what its is! I have folders full of binary files and a couple of EPROMs in the draw from when i tuned my mates saph on L6. I'm not saying I'm a pro with cossie management but i have enough knowledge of it to make educated decisions.

Do you have enough experience of other modern ecus to say the same?

Yes, stus wasted spark driver is very good. The reason he offers the conversion is because there are cosworth owners out there who have cosworth management already on their car and want to upgrade the spark arrangement to something more modern.

Stu offers all the extras so people can UPGRADE their 20 year old management.

If you are starting from fresh with EFI why not just buy modern with all the features already?

As i said people who only people who offer cossie management conversions would sing its praises.

Just out of interest Jano, if i drove into your workshop with an MFI RST how much would you charge to convert it to cossie management supplying ALL the parts and i want to run closed loop, wasted spark, antilag and 650 cc siemens injectors? Drive in, drive out.

Andy_R

iTrader: (3)

Must admit I've never understood the fascination with cossie managment, when there are equaly as good and in a lot of instances superior systems available for less cost.

Quite possibly a case of RS blinkers needing removed by some

matt p

Not really, just a simple question as to why you cant compare gotech to Pectal?

Just want answers, as you seem to enjoy having a dig at jamsport all the time