This week I was reading through the thread on the gearbox options (Cosworth gearbox options - Page 2 - PassionFord - Ford Focus, Escort & RS Forum Discussion) when I came across something said by Markk:

What would actually be involved in upgrade the Teves mk2 ABS system that is used in the Cosworth to something newer? I think the Teves mk60 system is actually a very popular option and would probably be a great improvement on the old system. But I guess the first problems already start with interfacing the system with the existing tooth rings/wheel sensors on the Cosworth?

The reason I'm interested in this is because my car developed an intermittent problem with the ABS system last weekend. When I braked relatively hard the car pulled violently to the left. I had it checked on the brake tester of an MoT station and it turned out the right front wheel is sometimes not braking at all, but at other moments it's working normally. I put this behaviour down to a fault in the ABS valve block. I already found some information on how to take the valve block apart in order to fix it, But even when fixed the ABS system on the Cosworth is very crude and brake performance could be much better if the ABS system was modulating the brakes more accurately. So are there ways to upgrade instead of fixing it?

 

marc I've bought a mk60 and I'm going to try to fit it to my Escos.

im fed up with the niggly issues with the old Ford system .im going 2wd so I fancy having the dsc .

ive bought a full system off a 2005 e46 330ci, which has the active blue sensors as per the m3.

i will be fitting the servo as well.i will have to do some mods to the firewall but i need to stick my engine back in with down pipe to see how it all fits .

the BMW has a 48-tooth count.i emailed a manufacturer today with measurements of the cossie ones,and they will have a look at making me some [cost dependent].

the rears stubs on the 2wd stub axle will have to have the tone ring machined off and a new one fitted to the stub

 

Cool that you are actually going to do this! I guess having DSC as well makes it hugely more complicated. I think in that case you also need the steering angle sensor and yaw sensor, but the most difficult thing I would expect it for the DSC controller to regulate the throttle/power. If you have drive-by-wire that would be the first step in solving that I suppose.

Since my first post I looked into it a bit more and found a very useful Facebook group called "MK60e5 and MK60 ABS retrofit group" with a lot of information. It seems that there are 3 versions of the Teves system that are interesting:
MK60 - from an E46
MK60e1 - from a 4 cylinder E9x
MK60e5 - from a 6 cylinder E9x
These systems should all have a 4 channel system, but from what I've read the MK60e5 system regulates the rear brake pressure really individually, where the other two regulate it to the wheel that starts to slip first.

I actually had a 4 cylinder E90 myself and now have a 6 cylinder E90. The wheel sensors on those systems are not the same, the 4 cylinder uses a toothed ring with I believe a passive sensor, but the 6 cylinder uses something like a magnetic ring that is fitted inside the wheel bearing together with an active sensor. I think I read that the ABS computer can be configured to work with either of the 2 sensor types, but I'm not completely sure.

I was wondering whether the BMW sensors would not simply pick up the signal from the tooth rings on the Cosworth. The amount of teeth might be different, but I would expect that shouldn't really make a difference in generating a useful signal.

 

Additionally I read that the 4 wheel drive E9x models use a Bosch ABS system instead of the Teves, but I couldn't find any other information on that (yet). But I suppose that would make it difficult to retrofit the MK60 ABS to a 4x4 car, if it's only used on 2wd. I'm not sure why the ABS system actually needs to be different for 4x4 vs 2wd, but I know that it is on the Cosworth. Although I don't know what is actually different.

 

as far as I'm aware the mk60 is a complete standalone Marc and the dsc will only control braking and have nothing to do with throttle all within the mk60 system.I suppose that would probably be implicated in traction control within the bmw design

i don't believe the active sensors of the mk60 will read the Ford teeth on the abs ring .im going to go with the 48 tooth count .ive trawled Abs rings similar in size to the Ford outside diameters to fit the cossie.

I can get rears off the shelf and have 2 made up for the front to fit inside the hub[sorted now ] or have something made to fit on the cv joint .im removing the front shafts as I'm going 2wd.

i will be fitting the yaw sensor and I'm not sure if i have to fit the steering angle sensor, but will fit it if needed

the rear blue sensors from the e46 m3 are remarkedly close to the Ford sensor[in orientation and diameter] on the front and will only need a bit of shimming and possibly a spacer on the back welded to the arm .

i will be going dbw as well if something needs dialed in

you can buy a Stanadlone loom but it's about 1600 dollars ,so will make one of those up to suit the escos shell


this is all new to me and will take a while to get sorted ,but look forward to the day if a sensor goes you can pick one up at the local motorfactors for 20 to 30 pounds/euro and if a pump goes buy a new one .even a pressure sensor is locally supplied

 

I don't think that the DSC will work with only braking. In a sense DSC is actually traction control. Because if you floor the throttle while cornering, the brakes alone won't be able to overcome full engine power, especially on a high power engine. So it will need cutting the engine power to make sure you don't spin.

Do you know how many teeth the Ford rings have? I guess the active sensors could still work with the Ford toothed ring, probably depending on the depth and width of the teeth. It's nice to know that the E46 sensors are very similar in fitment to the Ford sensors. I guess it will be a very interesting project! But for me the big unknown is still whether the MK60 can work with 4x4. As apparently also the E46 xdrive models use a Bosch system instead of the Teves.

But I look forward to your progress on this!

 

the dsc will be switchable anyways Marc so not the end of the world.I will be running traction control via the ecu which will probabaly be a maxxecu race.

the ford has roughly 94 teeth .i don't want to go to all the work of fitting this only to find the mk60 cant read the Ford's teeth.

the original m3 and m5 ran the same tooth count as the cossies so assumed that the newer abs wouldn't read the older 94 tooth reluctor rings .

this will be my last cossie build and my keeper,so want to future-proof it so i dont mind chopping it up to make a btter car of it and a nicer car to drive

this is why im also fitting the 8 speed zf8hp70.

 

I didn't expect that the amount of teeth was that different.

Do you already have an idea of what needs to be modded on the firewall to fit the MC and whether that is going to be difficult?

 

i will take a few pics when im fitting the servo marc

i need to get the engine in first so i can see the room needed .width wise it just scrapes in .height wise it interferes with the wiper mount but that can be cut and rewelded to suit.

its just the down pipe i need to see what room their is

 

I’ve been investigating this further and found that the MC and vacuum servo of a ‘92-‘94 Granada mk3 (facelift) will fit the Cosworth fire wall without modifications. The Granada uses a Teves mk4 ABS system that I expect can easily be swapped by a newer MK60 system.

For the ABS system I’m not sure yet what is best to use. The MK60e5 is the most modern system and should give the best performance, but it uses magnetic rings at the wheels. I found a list of both normal and magnetic ABS rings, so it’s not impossible to use the MK60e5.

 

once ive the engine fitted and i have romm i will make a conversion plate that may let me keep the firewall in tact .but tbhj if i have to cut it up i dont care lol.

im gonna stick with the e46 /m3 as it was probably well developed at the time for performance appossed to the granada

 

I have removed a 94 teeth ring from a front shaft to measure it up. It's 12.4 mm wide and 70.2 mm in outer diameter. The hole in the knuckle is slightly bigger, I measured it at ~71.7 mm. Ideally I would like to fit some magnetic rings so I can run the MK60e5 system, but I can't seem to find any magnetic rings that are small enough to fit the hole in the knuckle. But I also cannot find any 48 teeth rings in a useable size.

You said you have some rings made up for the front? Where did you have those made if you don't mind me asking?

Have you already tried if the E46 rear blue sensors fit inside the hole on the Cosworth knuckle?

 

Yesterday I picked up a set of rear stub shafts from a bug eye Scorpio. Those already have the ABS ring with 48 teeth. The interface for the hub and the bearing carrier are the exact same as on the Cosworth. For the interface for the driveshaft there are 2 versions, one is the 100 mm flange as used on the Cosworth 4x4 and the other is 108 mm, like on the 2wd Cosworth. The Scorpio 24v has the 108 mm and the 4 cilinders have the 100 mm. I'm not sure what the 2.9 12v and 2.5TD have. So using these saves machining your original stub shafts.

 

SORRY marc i never seen this reply

i haven't progressed any further at the minute Marc, as I am retaining my 4wd hub without shaft as I'm going 2wd on my Escos.i was looking at the possibility of machining the stubs to take a abs ring off the shelf,

the guys who can manufacture are called exmol manufacturing [gavin moss in uk].they have quoted me 150pound for a pair as they have to make a file up for machining and will take roughly 2weeks

the e46 rear sensors i think should work on both front and rear using existing holes, maybe a small bit of time to set up completely. the rear sensors read from the top like the cossie. the front BMW sensor reads from the side

 

great find marc ,as i have a 2.0 scorpio sitting out the back of my house lol

although i was thinking of going with a 2wd rear end so i might just find a pair of the 108mm stub shafts


maybe the fronts would work too in 2wd guise ?

 

I have not progressed on this yet, maybe next year, too busy building a truck now to take my car instead of vans and trailers

 

Several years ago a friend tried to fit the whole bug eye Scorpio ABS system to his 2wd (regular) Sierra, but he said the front ABS rings were a different size on the bug eye Scorpio than on the Sierra. I expect the front ABS rings to be the same size on all Sierras (regular 2wd, Cosworth 2wd, 4x4) and Granada mk3 as well. But I never checked this myself.

The 'basic' MK60 system was used on the later E46. An evolution of that, the MK60e1 is used on the 4 cylinder E9x. IMO the MK60e1 is easier to use than the MK60, as the e1 has the inlet pressure sensor integrated in the module (hence the 'e1' name). On the basic MK60 you need to hook up 2 pressure sensors to the inlet yourself, one for the front supply and the other for the rear supply, so that includes additional wiring and brake lines.
However, the MK60e5 system is again an upgrade over the e1 system. The e5 system uses 5 internal pressure sensors (hence the name e5), one on the inlet and than one on each brake line to the wheels. It is said that due to those additional pressure sensors the e5 ABS system can modulate the brake pressure even better than the other 2 systems. The downside of the e5 system is that it uses magnetic rings instead of toothed rings. However, people have sort of 'cracked' the coding and can now change the type of ring on the rear axle from magnetic to toothed rings. On the front this is not possible (yet).

So because of the additional performance I would really like to use the MK60e5 system, which is the ABS/DSC system used on the E9x 6 cylinder cars. I plan to use the rings with 48 teeth on the rear and some magnetic rings on the front. The magnetic rings have 96 pins, so the signal should be equal to 48 teeth on the rear. I have ordered the AIC 55465 magnetic rings, which have a diameter of 71.5 mm. It will be a very tight fit within the front knuckle, as I measured that to be 71.7 - 71.8 mm. Hopefully there is also some coating on the rings that could rub off slightly if needed. If it really doesn't fit I guess I will also have to have some 48 teeth rings made up, as I cannot find any magnetic rings smaller than the one I ordered. The other option would be to machine the knuckle for a slight bit more clearance, but I really don't want to do that.

 

i will update a few pics I got last week Marc.I was at ford fair since Thursday.

the Scorpio ring won't fit into the 2wd front hub[fits in 4wd hub] but it's marginal so I think a very small machining process would work

the scorpio abs ring could be machined to fit over the 4wd driveshaft

what i measured

blue e46 sensors rear[which should work front and rear on ford hubs with a little spacing

bmw sensor 31mm long 23mm wide
ford sensor front 25mm long 23mm wide

scorpio front abs ring 2wd front 67mm 14.4mm wide
standard 4wd abs ring 70mm diameter and 12.5mm wide

 

That is some great info on the Scorpio front rings! Do you also have the measurements of the 2wd Sierra rings, as you said it doesn't fit the 2wd? As I also have a 2wd Sierra that I might want to do such a conversion on if it's successful.

I also got a master cylinder and vacuum servo of a 1993 Granada. As I expected it is a direct fit to the Sierra bulkhead, so that's good. The servo is much bigger than a normal Sierra one, so I expect that the assistance is also much better.



But fitting it in between the turret, bulkhead and engine was a real struggle, as it's really huge, but in the end I managed to get it in place (just as a test fit).



BTW, I found out that this MC is actually also used on the 4x4 Granada/Scorpio from 1993/1994. So that car already doesn't use the Teves mk2 system (as on the Cosworth) anymore, it uses the Teves mk4 ABS system. So I'm no longer worried on running a different ABS system together on the 4x4. I actually expect that the better the ABS system does its job, the better it is in protecting the viscous diffs in the 4x4 as well.

I also ordered the smallest magnetic ABS ring I could find. The outer diameter of the actual magnetic ring is something like 70.4 mm, so that does fit within the 4x4 knuckle. But the metal ring supporting it is slightly wider and goes up to 71.4 mm, so that is actually a bit too wide. The other thing I not sure about is that the sensor is normally supposed to be placed to the side of the ring, but I need to have it on top. I did see a post of someone on Facebook who got a workable signal from reading the thin part of the magnetic ring, so I hope it will still work. To be continued...

 

nice update marc.

my cossie being rhd the downpipe off the turbo is going to be my limiting factor when it comes to the servo master cylinder .the bmw one is much slimmer than the granada one

i would say the 2wd abs ring is only 1 to 2 mm less than the scorpio one ,but i will get a measurement asap

if you made a billet cap for the inside of the hub you could mount the sensor the othe way and get sensor in the right orientation marc

 

Why Servo ? can you not still use the original master setup for the power assistance aspect of it ?

That's unrelated to the ABS side of things ?

 

just trying to get away from accumalators ,pumps , etc and move to a newer system .you can probably buy 4 sensors for the price of one ford one lol.

also have ob2 port and canbus


i can also go and buy abs sensors in my local bmw garage or any motorfactors and can also use the signal for speed sensors etc stevie

i like the pedal feel of a servo in a road car tbh

 

I guess it would still be possible to use the original MC with electric brake booster. However, on LHD cars it's one complete unit, including the ABS valve block. I have not investigated whether it's possible to separate the two, but I'm not such a big fan of the standard brake booster. The accumulator is very old by now and loses its charge quite quickly, meaning the electric pump is running every 2 to 3 times you press the brake pedal. Next to that the unit is very heavy, so I think a normal servo would be much better.

Something I also like about using the Granada MC is that the Granada uses the same size brake pistons front and rear as the Cosworth, so the front/rear brake balance should be no problem either.

I think I have found a way to make the magnetic ABS rings and sensors work on the front knuckles. So that means I should be able to use the MK60e5 system, so I can start gathering more parts.

BTW, you said the standard ABS sensors are 23 mm wide, but I measured the hole in the rear arm and that is 18 mm. Did you maybe make mistake in converting from inches to mm? Are the E46 sensors then also 18 mm wide? And do you perhaps have a picture of the E46 sensors? It's still unclear to me which sensors I can best use on the rear. Maybe the E46 sensors, but if the hole for the bolt doesn't line up with the hole on the arm it might be easier to get a sensor from an E9x 4 cylinder car, as I believe that is rotated 90 degrees, so I could make a small adapter piece to fit in between the arm and the sensor.

 

marc, because of the orientation of the sensors I thought about using the rear e46 sensors in the front hubs of the escort as they are both 23 mm wide and sit in nice and snug .i will have to make an adaptor for the back arwm to mount the e46 sensor

the e46 sensor has a taper but fits in nicely

 

this is the scorpio front abs ring

this is a blue e46 rear sensor sat into a 4x4 cos hub .its is a nice fit and even the locating bolt is very close to working .i think i will need a 3mm spacer

 

 

Thanks for the pictures, those really help! It seems like the E46 sensor is indeed a very nice fit. I suppose the bolt hole can be made to work as well.

 

I have nothing technical to add whatsoever, but this is a great thread and the reason forums will always be best! Proper experimentation, decent documentation of what might/can/doesn't work, and hopefully for the pair of you some great improvements at the end of it.
Following with interest and I don't even have a Cossie, I'm just a nerd for interesting mods

 

Is this actually a proven and safe swap into different vehicles ?

how many others have actually done it and tested ?

 

it's a standalone system, much the same as the Cosworth system made by the same people at ATE Stevie

I'm using exactly what came out of the e46 330/m3 etc , and like the Cosworth system the brakes will work independently of the ABS system

there is facebook pages, and lots on you tube etc

 

a quick google....interesting. Perhaps wasting your time trying to retrofit different sensors if you already have working Ford items ? Sounds like it may be happy with any VR signal ?

Also interesting it is a F/R split, rather than diagonal. As another car I bought recently with crappy ABS, some people do retrofit another controller from a different model, but they're very hard to come by.
I guess this BMW unit could well be another option.

 

it was a fluke that the BMW sensor was within reason the same size to fit in a Sierra Hub Stevie

i bought the whole system out of a working car for 300 euro which included

servo and master cylinder with 2 pressure sensors
abs block with plug
yaw sensor
brake switch
4 sensors

you can use the blue sensors for speedo supply as well as traction control and DSC and are active sensor with a processor in the ABS sensor itself

i didn't want to try to set it all up to realize the sensor wouldn't read 96 tooth ab ring .bmw used to run the 96tooth on their old e30 m3 /m5 but changed up on the later model to 48 tooth.i just assume it is an upgrade now

i can buy 4 original bosch sensors for the price of one Cossie one by the time I import it into Ireland etc.

im no expert in any of this but i want to try something where parts are readily available stevie

 

i will try anything to try make these cars more reliable mate

 

I’m still a bit puzzled which e46 sensors to use. What does ‘blue sensors’ actually mean? Is it the connector plug that is blue? I do know that the earlier e46 used the mk20 system instead of the mk60. But I don’t know how to see the difference in sensors.

 

A bit of research suggests there are many options.

But most swapping seem to insist it's only the M3 stuff you want to use with a very limited range of part numbers. And I've found no ABS units fort sale with them !

I'm sure other MK60 variants are quite doable though, just haven't found a definitive dummy's guide yet.

 

The push for the M3 is about it being the standalone and also having the SW capability to be able to flash the CSL program, which, people seem to think is the closest to a motorsport program.
I think there is a need to use later variants, the sampling rate of the newer systems is higher, thus I would expect as good if not better than an early BMW system.
I have a later one from a mini, just not had time to do anything with it yet.

 

Yea I've seen them talk about them re-programming. Mind you, I also see them say they don't actually know who can re-program them lol

A system I could retrofit that uses normal 2 wire VR sensors would be handy, which I think earlier systems do ?

Not sure on tooth count, from what I've scoped on my car I'd say it's around 28-30 teeth. Can't physically count as it's one of the bearing type triggers. But trying best to do single wheel rotations, it seems around 30 teeth. Pretty sure most BMW systems use a much higher tooth count.

 

the blue sensor has a microchip in it as its active[probabaly to do with the dsc] and has a blue plug,i think from 93 the e46 switched to mk60 marc

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/807702710448164/permalink/1034392317779201
No it hasn't fucking been removed or changed, your piece of shit forum is blocking it

No need to change sensors now, it's a converter from a VR or Hall to the MR type signal.

 

oh for fucks sake is this piece of shit not going to allow FB links ?

facebook.com/groups/807702710448164/permalink/1034392317779201

put the www. bit in front of it