Hello everyone,
I ve been scouring this forum for the past 3 months now and thought I d join up.
So my name is Leslie I m english but have been in France since I was 10 years old. I m a mechanic and I do historic rally (vhc rally ) in France with a lancia delta hf integrale.
I have finally purchased a sierra cosworth 4x4 1992 which I m rebulding for historic rallyes. The car is fantastic.... I always wanted a cossie but there hard to come by over here.

Anyhow. I ve rebuils engine, brakes, suspension and last week when I finally went to hook up my ecu to the laptop for mapping..... no power to ecu !
so I ve figured out that the ecu and fuel pump relays are not getting the 12v switched ignition to them. They receive the permanent 12v and the grounds are fine and go to the ecu but no switched ignition. I ve lacking the second 12v to power them.
any ideas would be welcome before I start unravelling the whole car loom.

Cheers
Leslie

 

Measure voltage to pin 20 on ecu,test relays also.. as i recall Pin 20 is supplied with 12v by the fuel injection relay this relay also activates the fuel pump relay so if the pump is priming then the fuel injection relay is working.

 

Hi thanks for responding.
No power to pin 20 on ecu. No power to fuel pump relay or injection relay. They are not receiving the switched 12v.

I ve powed pin 20 with a wire directly from battery and ecu comes on and I can communicate with it from my laptop so ecu is ok.
Just don t have the second 12v arriving at injection and fuel pump relays.

 

Hello,
You can check ECU wiring from here:ECU wirings

As you have -92 model, it shall have L8 ECU. So here is few tips for you:
-Check pin 1, GND
-Check pin 19, GND
-Check pin 20, 12VDC,as I understood you don`t have power here, so check this:
"power to pin 20 is supplied with 12v by the fuel injection relay (m11) this relay also activates the fuel pump relay (m10) so if the pump is priming then the fuel injection relay is working" --> I`m not sure where this locates, but it`s either in main fuse box or clipped under the dash on the passenger side
Here is Relay locations, but not sure are these valid for Cosworth. If this is valid, relay what you are looking for is this, if M11 = XI:

If there is no power, I think issue is with ignition switch

-Fuel pump relay doesn`t have +12VDC feed from ECU. +12VDC is directly from battery trough fuses, so check fuses and measure fuel pump relay +12VDC terminals. (Fuel pump relays are +12VDC controlled from ignition switch)



-Check ignition switch, maybe this is broken
1) Ensure ignition is OFF.
2) Remove rear of ecu plug cover and insert plug back into ecu.
3) Turn ignition back on (do not start engine)
4) MAIN POWER CHECK: Check for DC voltage of at least 11.5V between ecu pins 19 and 20

or check relay I (Steering and ignition lock) -->see from Relay locations

Hope these help

 

Thanks very much for the help sadly I ve done most of that already.

I ve checked ecu pins 20 and 19 no voltage. Checked ecu grounds and all OK.

I have 12v permanent on injection relay but no switched 12v. And 12v permanent on fuel pump relay but again no switched 12v. I have also checked continuity from the injection relay to ecu and it is fine.

I followed the réd and Black switched 12v from the injection relay under the passenger side dash and it arrives at the multiplug 6 pin next to the battery. From there it goes across the bulckhead above the engine and down under the fuse bon back into the car. I have checked continuity every 20cm along and from the fuel relay to above the brake pedal it is fine no brakes in the wire.

What I can t détermine is where this wire goes and where it gets it's 12v after ignition from.

Does anyone know if the 4 wires behind the ignition switch all turn to 12v when key is turned into the 2nd position ???
At the moment I have a red 12v permanent then when I turn the key to 2nd position I have a yellow and Black 12v, a yellow 12v but the last wire (blue and Black) stays négative. I assume the blue Black is for the starter motor.

sorry for the long post !

 

I also forgot to say that the red Black wire that I m chasing (from the injection relay) does not go into the fuse box. It follows the loom back up under the instrument cluster above the steering wheel.

Also the engine cranks OK but obviously no fuel pump priming or voltage to injectors.

 

You shall have +12VDC on fuel pump and ECU module relays, when ignition switch is at 2nd position. I think I have wiring diagram somewhere, so I need to check how +12VDC goes from ignition switch to these relays.

Did you check that relay I (Steering and ignition lock)?

Inertial switch also cuts +12VDC from fuel pump, so you shall also check this.

 

The inertail switch has been removed by the previous owner and an MSD fuel pump loom installed so at least that s one less problem.
I am sorry I am not at home at the moment so I couldn t check. I will check tomorrow morning.
thanks you very much for your help ! If you could tell me how the 12v ignition switch gets powered that would be fantastic !

 

Hello,

I found old 3-door Cosworth wiring diagram and there M11 receives +12VDC directly from ignition switch. In 3-Door version this wire color is black, but I assume that same wire with your car is black/yellow.
You can try first connect directly +12VDC to M11 relay (Fuel injection relay) terminal 86. M10 relay (Fuel pump) receives +12VDC, when you have +12VDC at M11 relay terminal 86.
So you are looking M11 relay terminals 30 and 86.
-terminal 30 +12VDC from battery, trough fuse
-terminal 86 +12VDC from ignition switch

If these does`t help, ECU terminal 10 is grounding M11 relay terminal 85. When M11 relay works, you have +12VDC at terminal 87.

I`m not however sure is wiring matching with your car, because, as I said this wiring was for 3-door version.

Black/blue wire in ignition switch is for starter motor. This wire goes somehow trough original alarm system.

Ignition SW:

Red/black, from battery
Black/yellow, Cooling fan temp switch and others... (so many places, so not listed...)
Black/blue, Anti theft relay/starter motor
Yellow, ?

Hope this solves your issue.

 

Thank you !
thats very kind of you to take the time to look it up.
I was afraid you d say the + ignition goes directly to the injection relay.... I suspected as much but what baffles me is that the wire I ve hunted from the relay is réd/Black yet the switched 12v at the ignition switch is Black and yellow ! So where does it change colour and how ???

If I can t figure it out I will run another switched 12v to the injection realy like you suggested and the problem will be solved but I d really like to figure out what is going on !
tomorrow I will try and follow the réd Black wire a bit further if I can... it must arrive at a connector somewhere or a relay to be able to be plugged in to the yellow/Black ignition wire switch.

Anyhow thank you very much for your help you ve been grand. I will keep you updated with my progress.
cheers !

 

Has it got and additional anti theft switch in the fuel pump circuit, hidden under the dash maybe?

 

No apparently not (I asked the previous owner) and I haven t found anything and I ve ripped out under the dash both passenger side and driver side (it s a complete nightmare under there bent in two with pedals in your face and wire sticking in your ears and nose !).

 

t3garett. If you give me your email address I can send you wiring diagrams if that would help.
David

 

Hi, thank you I have just sent you a pm.
sorry I haven t made any progress as I got caught up in à family reunion. I ll get back to it this afternoon hopefully.

 

Sorry I got swamped at work yesterday and never got back to sending the diagrams. Have sent now but had to break up into 8 bits due to attachment size limits I have.
Have only had a quick look but Power distribution (incl ignition switch etc ) is on diag 2. Starting and charging (3A or B depending if LHD or RHD) shows the black/Blue (SW BL) going through the Anti theft relay to the starter - Black Red (SW RT)
German colour codes are shown middle left of diag 1 - explanations. All of the above are in diag's 1-10. 2-20 and 3-30 have the engine management drawings but in the quick look I had, I see mostly EEC 1V and not sure if Cosworth is there or not.
Hope they help
David

 

Thank you very much David ! That s great I ll print them out and start studying. My co-pilot who is a Peugeot electrotechnician has finally taken pity on me and is going to pop down to help me out this week. So fingers crossed I should be making some progess soon.
thank you all for your help.
Cheers

 

Hi all just to say we ve just spent 8h checking the wiring with my co pilot who knows his stuff and some good news.... my ecu is ok all my sensors are ok, I have spark and fuel at the injectors, my fuel pump is ok... we ve tested everything and all is ok but we are still missing the switched 12v at the ecu relay and fuel pump relay !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We powered the ecu relay speratly to run the tests and powered the fuel pump relay seperatly as well.
we ve traced the 12v switched wires over the bulkhead back into the car above the pedals and then they dissapear behind the dash.
so next step is to remove the instrument cluster and then the dashboard. I m gutted cause the car is à single owner with only 83 000km and has never been dismantled before. I ll keep you posted when I have any news.

Cheers !

 

I ve been folowing the red/Black 12v switched that is missing at the fuel pump relay and it ' s mind boggling. It comes out under the battery then goes over the engine on the bulkhead then goes back in the car above the pedals and then (whereas I thought it would plug in somewhere under the dash ) it goes down the driver footwell panel and then goes towards the rear of the car under the door sills... I am begining to suspect it goes to the inertia switch in the spare wheel compartment. But I checked that switch and there is no wiring arriving at it. I assume it was deleted when the MSD wiring loom was installed. I m baffled.

 

On my '90 cars wiring diagram it shows the black /red wire at the fuel pump relay going directly to the fuel pump (and also the waste gate control (Amal valve)) It has a solid red on pin 30 (common) of the relay as the feed and then the black/red is on pin 87 (Normally open switched) to feed the fuel pump. David

 

Further to above - no voltage at black/red would be pointing to a faulty fuel pump relays contacts, assuming you have 12v at the red on pin 30 or that the relay is not being activated by the ECU. I have a vague memory that the engine needs to be cranked before the fuel pump is enabled. Presumably the ECU monitors one of the sensors like the Crankshaft position sensor, and then sets the output to the relay once cranking is detected. I guess this could point to a faulty sensor or wiring of the sensor, causing the relay to not be activated. Could even point back to the notorious 3 firewall plugs as all sensors pass through these. I see there is also interaction between the fuel injection relay and the fuel pump relay. Have attached a copy of the '90 engine management drawings as I'm not sure if the '92 ones I sent you had one for the Cosworth. Due to the size of the page, had to scan in two parts which need to be superimposed over each other. David

 

Thank you very much everybody for all the help and info !
Success at last !!!!!
The car now has à priming fuel pump and a powered ecu !!! And I ve been able to plug in the rp-lab software and check the ecu and all sensors and everything seems OK.

So what the problem was on the fuel pump side was that the MSD fuel pump loom was wired in correctly apart from the 12v switched wire which had been soldered to the earth wire of the fuel level sender... A big thanks to Stu Sanderson who sent me the msd fuel pump loom instructions and after removing the fuel tank and cutting into the 5kg of electrical wire I found the problem. I ve now soldered it on to the famous red/Black wire which originaly went through the inertia switch and powered the pump. I ve also put the inertia switch back in as all this had been removed.

As for the ecu relay.... thanks to the wiring diagrams you guys sent I traced the Black switched 12v all around the engine bay... had to open all the loom to follow it and check for continuity and finally traced it to the old ignition coil plug after going through the ignition amplifier (my car has wasted spark and 2 amplifiers and an msd coil) so I think again the ignition loom has been wrongly installed and doesn't pick up the 12v anywhere. After seeing where the Black wire went and seeing it was ready to power everthing it should I pulled another 12vswitched wire from the ignition barrel to the ecu relay to power it.
Everyrhing works !!!!! I m so happy after 2 weeks spent chasing bloody wires all around the place !

Thank you so much for your help !!!
I ll be posting some photos of the car soon
Cheers

 

Glad you finally got it sorted out, it must have been a frustrating time for you over the past few weeks!!

 

Hello Leslie. I am from Belgium and I have a Lancia Delta Integrale as well with an RP Lab ECU. Car is highly modified. I am looking for someone who is familiar with the software supplied by RP Lab. Where are you located in France?

 

Hi there,
8v or 16v integrale ?
I am right down the bottom of France at the foot of the Pyrénées Mountains in the Ariège.
what do you need help with ? I will help if I can. 2