what is the best type of 5th injector set up to use on a zvh engine? and has anyone got on i can buy call me on 07778749092 if you can help or leave a message on here and i will contact you

 

I don't personally believe there is a good 5th injector... how can a single injector distribute fuel correctly and equally to all cylinders.

You would be better off with better management if you have fuelling issues

 

Or use a proper management to control the fifth injector and rad fan, datalogging, boost map, incar data display, wasted spark, etc. on the same go.

 

there is alot of cars out there with an MF2 type controller do you know anyone with this type for sale as a kit that is as im need it very soon?

 

You can have mine for 200 quid it's got everything you'll need including crossover pipe with injector (and plug) and boost sensor mounted on it, all wiring and full instructions. PM me if interested. John

 

what make is it mate

 

MF2

 

post me some pics mate that will be spot on if you can

 

mate will you give me a ring and i will get you the money for your injector kit my number is on the top this page regards john

 

The MF2 is a very good bit of kit, allows you to run sensible AFR's off boost and supplies plenty of fuel on boost.

UnseenMenace

Complete bollocks

Do you know how many cars come from the factory with a single throttle body mounted injector?!

 

sorry but a complete waste of an engine in my mind. lay out the extra for a decent efi management set up. it'll be far more reliable in the long run and generally it'll allow better control over your injectors giving better fuel consumption figures.

 

How will it be more reliable? And give better consumption?

Continous injection system have incredibly good control over transients, and the atomisation of fuel is superior to electronic injectors. The problem you have with KE, is that it can only be calibrated over a small range of load. The MF2 sorts this by looking after all the on boost fuelling, while the the KE provides perfect off boost control.

There is a lot more to Efi converisons than a simple swap. Who is going to Map it? And are they any good? In the grand scheme of things probably not. Manufactures spend 1000's of man hours mapping an engine - so how a so called tuner can do it in an afternoon is comical.

 

5th injectors do not need to spread the fuel evenly across all the cylinders. The engine takes care of this itself by inducting at different intervals so the air fuel mix is sucked into only 1 cylinder at once.

 

through my experience ke is unbelievably temperamental. it needs adjusting every five minutes as the slightest little thing throws it out. i would prefer to run an efi system that doesn't spit it's dummy everytime it's thursday instead of constantly paying out money to have my mfi set up re-calibrated. if the fifth injector route is so good then why don't the big manufacturers still use it? or for that matter race teams? the simple facts are it is an unreliable system that thankfully was very short lived and was superseded by a far better series of systems. and on the front of economy, a closed loop lamba set up is by far a much more efficient system as it allows the ecu to constantly evaluate and adjust itself by not simply relying on air flow or manifold absolute pressure.

 

A EFI setup can take different injectors and be remapped pretty effectively so its fair to say that we are talking about a MFI based engine here when talking about 5th injectors.
The problem with MFI even with a 5th injector is the MAP. Having only 1 bar Map sensor built in the ECU will mean there is a set Map upto 14.7psi (1 bar) running anymore boost than that will create problems after a period of time and damage your engine because the ECU doesnt know what to do after that point and just throws in aload of fuel with is always uneven in each cylinder. (Port 1 and 4 have less air and fuel due to the shape of the inlet manifold)

if you have an MFi system running on the limit of the management + 1 injector (Which cant supply equal amount of fuel to each port anyway) how long till it damages the engine due to the setup being out (just slightly but at high boost thats all it takes)

But then again like you say its Complete bollocks, there's a lot of high powered RST's running 5th injectors around as evidence of this

To spend the money on a ZVH to then skimp on the managment by running a 5th injector is not a good idea imho... This is why I stated if you have fueling problems look for better management.

 

all that rick is trying to say over the cost of getting someone to fit/map a efi system reliably the cheaper option would be a 5th inj.

 

Lads, Rick wasn't saying that EFI systems are crap. He was saying that the uneven air/fuel distribution with a 5th injectors system is bollocks.

If all the cylinders were inducting at the same time, uneven distribution would be true. As the cylinders induct at different times, the distibution is a lot more even. The plenum acts as a pressurised storage facility for the air (and the air/fuel if the 5th is used) and just fills the cylinder that has an open valve.

Do you mean map on the ECU chip or map sensor inside the ECU? 2 different things?

The issue with your agruement is that the 5th is there to add the additional fuel that the MFI system cannot add. When the ECU throws in it's on boost fueling and it still runs lean, it can't compensate so the 5th injector is then mapped to supply the additional fuel. If it's done properly, there will be no damage to the engine. But like ANY system, if the set up is out, it will either run badly at best or damage your engine at worst.

Manufacturers don't use 5th injectors for the same reason they don't use carbs anymore. Or single point injection. Technological pregression and advancements which are also coming down in price. It took the motoring world nearly 100 years to move away from carbs. Then there was MFI, then multipoint (batched and sequential fired) and single point injection.

The 5th injector is not as bad as people think they are or make them out to be. They do a job and do it very very well. However in my opinion, you cannot beat a properly set up, decent quality EFI system.

 

UnseenMenace

You a severley miss informed

The sensor built into the ESCII ECU is a 2.5 bar unit, which can be mapped to 22.5 psi.

However this is not really an issue. The 5th inj uses it's owen external MAP sensor, such as a 3 bar used on a cossie. Together with an rpm input, you get full 3d mapping upto 2 bar of boost. I acutally used a 4bar sensor to give me mapping upto 3 bar of boost.

As Daz has tried to explain, this is simply not an issue. The fuel is atomised with the inlet air as it leaves the injector. It has a VERY long path to reach the combustion chamber. This is highly desireable, as the mixture is very well homogenised by the time it reaches the ignition point. It also has a significant aircharge cooling effect similar to that of water injection.

Now, with this well mixed mixture obviously an equal ratio of air/fuel will reach each port. It has to - why would the mixture fall out ? it can't - it has picked up lots of heat from the inlet tract and is well and truly mixed. What may happen, is that different amounts of charge will reach different cylinders. This is purely down to the design of the inlet manifold, and nothing to do with the injection system.

This can be overcome by management which can trim the pulse width for each cylinder. You need the expensive management, 4 EGT or ideally AFR sensors for each cylinder, and most importantly, somebody with the ability to spend DAYS mapping the car. Daz and I do this, but who else?

As cars running big power MF2. Well, the NMS cars did constand 13 sec quaters years ago now with 280hp. My own car has never melted anything, and was driven daily on an MF2 for 18months. Think 25 psi on a t34, and 40mpg cruise economy.

Rick.

 

Rick clearly understands it but didn't really write it in caps:
KE-jet AND ESC-II ARE TWO COMPLETELY SEPARATE SYSTEMS.

The map is in the ESC-II ignition ecu. The KE-jet fuel injection system doesn't have a map and knows nothing about the pressure levels, nor has it got a chip or memory or anything mappable.