S18rra

Hi all over these winter months I would really like to find a way of adding cooling to my supercharger setup. Currently I have a blacktop with m45 supercharger but no cooler. The supercharger is bolted directly to the plenum so I would have to flip it 180, get a new plenum/inlet and custom pipe work.
Questions are
-will I loose pressure by having a run of hoses from charger to intercooler than to plenum as oppose to direct connection as it is now?
-is there such thing as a water cooler that could sandwich between my plenum and charger?
-am I better off having water/meth injection straight into my plenum on current setup?


Ignore the current air filter position as this is changing.
As you can imagine I don't have much room but need to sort cooling out as supercharger is not being used to full potential.

Many thanks

pani_k

iTrader: (1)

In installations I've seen in Focuses, systems like Aquamist are used spraying into the intake to cool the charge. I don't know the principles of how these are meant to be fitted though especially on a kit car like yours.

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

that should be nippy. What power? i'd say a charge cooler might be the answer due to space issues for an intercooler.

S18rra

It's currently running 6psi and 175 at the wheels. Does anyone know where I could get a charge cooler that would sandwich between charger and plenum?

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

gdmmotorsport is a start

XRT_si

iTrader: (2)

I used to have a Jackson Racing Zetec supercharger kit and they bolt to the plenum like yours does. Heard of people in America getting good power out of them using water injection but ideally I wanted to slide an chargecooler core between the supercharger and the plenum, like the Powerworks kit.

You will be really tight with space doing that though, but that's your answer.

lacey

Contact pro alloy or pace to make you a cooler that is sandwich between the s/c and inlet

S18rra

Thanks, some have said the problem with sandwiching a cooler is it will get all the heat of the supercharger so will not reduce the inlet temps that well as it's trying to cool itself

WTF?!

In your situation, pre-compressor water or meth injection IMO. Pre-comp will be most effective and might actually pick you up a little boost pressure too due to it helping seal the gaps between the rotors, did with my one really nicely.

A chargecooler, as you said, without a big radiator too, and good heat shielding, both of which is pretty impossible for your car, will heat soak very quickly and not be effective.

The most important bit for a working chargecooler setup isnt chargecooler size, its the water rad size, as they're almost always way too small to keep the water cool enough for very long at all.

S18rra

I've had a good look at the car today and there is absolutely no way I can sandwich in a charge cooler as there is no room at all. This would mean completely changing the setup with new inlet/plenum, brackets for supercharger and pipe work for intercooler. Also engine out to do all the work so could add up to a lot of money.
I may give the water/meth a go and see what happens.

I've also taken my induction hose off and fitted a 90' pipe to show where the new air filter will go which should hopefully feed the engine colder air

.Ross.

iTrader: (2)

Like WTF said:

With no intercooler your gonna need to run a 'Water - Meth' kit. Kits like AEM or Snow meth work awesome. Also it will boost octane and seal the rotor pack better.

The Roots are generically 'Hot'

stevieturbo

You can get....ie in your case you would need to make it, but you can get coolers that go between blower and engine. But being attached to the engine and of limited size, you're always fighting a losing battle.

Also, depending on throttle placement, adding lots of volume between throttle and intake valves can complicate matters further.

Your easiest bet probably would be water injection. In the UK Aquamist kits are probably the best and give you the option of controlling flow vs actual demand.

All of the yank kits do not offer this. The basically just control flow vs boost or some other factor, which often means you have more fluid injected than you need.

Inject the water pre-rotors would probably be the easiest option


That said, if that huge black box is all empty plenum, maybe you do have lots of room for a water/air unit. Although you will then need to route pipes, pump, front rad etc.

S18rra

Yes the big black box is all the plenum. I think I would have room if a new plenum was made higher up that will then allow me to flip the m45 and run pipe work. Or I could get a custom charge cooler made into my plenum, both these options I imagine would cost a lot of money and I'll have to find a garage near by to do it all.
If not then like said I might just get a water/meth kit as I've heard they do work well.
Obviously I won't buy anything until I get someone to get the inlet temps as I'm only running 6psi at the min

stevieturbo

This is an example of what the yanks do

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...e=1&permPage=1

Now anyone can achieve this, but due to labour costs etc, none will ever be cheap.

Given it seems to be a very low boost setup, the cheapest and easiest option would be water injection from the likes of Aquamist. Get the kit that allows water flow to be mapped relative to injector duty cycle.

.Ross.

iTrader: (2)

Allot of debate regarding injection points.

I would inject pre TB but my set up allot more user friendly. Post blower only cools the charge air.

AEM make a kit that can be controlled and it also has a fail safe option.

stevieturbo

No debate in a case like this though.

The blower itself is a huge source of heat, so whilst you could also add some port injection, you'd want the bulk of injection to happen before the blower.

Plus in the case of a rootes, it's the easiest anyway.

.Ross.

iTrader: (2)

Yeah no debate really.

Water / Meth = ŁŁŁ
Custom work = ŁŁŁŁ

So where does the ECM read IAT's? Built into the MAF?

S18rra

At the minute the only way I can get the inlet temps are to log it from the omex. Apparently I also need to tee off the current hose off the plenum to go into the top of the fpr.
Also my tb is fitted right at the inlet of the m45 so may be difficult to fit the nozzles between, would it be ok just before the tb?

stevieturbo

Yes, but where is the sensor mounted, and what sort of temperatures are you seeing ?


edit, see it sitting top the top lid.

S18rra

Not sure as I need to work out how to log it on a laptop. I never done anything like that before.
All I know is it gets extremely hot, so much so that you can not go anywhere near the charger, plenum and old induction hose as it's too hot.

stevieturbo

Until you know what the temps are when driving, there is no point spending any money. Obviously when going slow or stationary, heat soak will always mean those parts are roasting ( made worse feeding them with hot air behind the radiator )

jontysafe

How have you got on with this? I have a fairly high spec cossie engine in my 7 and have gone chargecooler route, you`ll be amazed how cheaply it can be done.

Bit of silicon piping, some hard piping, focus RS chargecooler pump, the actual chargecooler and another rad the same size as the one you have but facing the other way so they can butt right up against each other. I reckon if you`re a bit handy you could do this for a few hundred quid.

I`m running 20psi with no issue. Few mods this year should see 500bhp.

S18rra

Hi I haven't got round to doing anything yet. Need to really get the inlet temps before thinking about adding anything else.
Without changing the positioning of the charger and mounts, belts ect there's no way I can get a charge cooler in, and I don't personally have the knowledge or skills to do this myself.
The idea is to add water meth injection and get a smaller pulley for the charger to up the boost.

S18rra

So I took my car to TTS performance in silverstone today to have a little tuning session. Here's the results

I've got to admit that I'm a little disappointed
They found that the car was running very lean so sorted that out but said that if I want more power I need to think about water meth injection and a smaller supercharger pulley.
I'm not sure what the process is but they didn't really check the engine physically for any issues. Spark plugs, injectors ect.
Also my car seems to be idling very strangely, keeps dropping right down to almost stall then back to 1100rpm. the only differences since it was ok are the new air filter and I teed the vacuum hose and connected up the fpr which was disconnected before. TTS said that they were going to map it with the fpr connected as that's what the recommend but idle was still like this when I got home.
They also mentioned that they would put the water/meth in the plenum, would this actually help at all?

Fast Guy

In the RAF our plane use to inject water meths direct into the eye of the supercharger..

stevieturbo

Normally it's up to you to ensure the engine is healthy and ready to be tested. Dyno time is expensive...so were you prepared to pay for several hours time while they carried out basic maintenance and health checks ? Had you booked this amount of time with them ?

Was the idle problem there before ? Idle can be a pain sometimes.

But if you added a vac reference to the FPR after it was tuned, then it's probably running very lean now. If they had time and were instructed to do so, then idle should have been corrected when tuning.

There are many places you can inject water/meth. Just depends on the setup really, and what issues you think you're trying to address.

S18rra

The idle started getting erratic once I connected up the top of the fpr, when cold the engine would keep stalling until warm.
When TTS had the car they said that they would tube with it connected but now the idle is very erratic when cold and hot, it doesn't stall anymore but nearly does then fluctuates.

Churtz

I used to run a 2.0 blacktop with Eaton m45. I used a 19% reduction pulley and water inj. Had the injection turn on with positive boost and when over a certain temp. Worked well. I didn't have it directly mounted though... I had it mounted at the bottom of the block with a custom flange/outlet and pipework going to the Eng. Made around 10 psi.

S18rra

Nice did you run an intercooler aswell? Where did you have the water inj jet connected and what sort of power did you manage?
Any pics

CrOwSoN15

The M45 is simply too small to make decent numbers on a 2.0, even by overspinning one to 16,000 RPM, it'll create enormous amounts of heat. You'd be better off going M62, you won't have to work it so hard and subsequently you'll have less heat.

Definitely another shout for water&meth, meth is good.

S18rra

An upgrade to m62 would be good but I'm really lacking space. I think my best bet at the minute is to do all I can (meth) to get the temps right down and then possibly get a smaller pulley.

CrOwSoN15

M62's are hard to come by, and tend to fetch good money as people know what they are.

Not sure what they're like dimensionally as apposed to a 45 though!

wide ka

just cut a hold in the bonnet if your struggling for room and push it outwards

Churtz

I got rid of my m45 for an m62. I got a clutched one from a merc and made a custom solid pulley.

10 psi with no intercooler....when I added one it dropped to about 8 psi.

I agree with the above.....you do have to work the m45 very hard and it gets super hot/inefficient.

I had metal boost pipes going from supercharger to engine - so injected water into the pipe over the top of the cam cover.

S18rra

Sorry how does a clutched one work?

S18rra

Just looked it up. So it has power running to it and when you accelerate the supercharger spins and when at idle the pulley runs freely but charger doesn't spin, therefore stopping it getting too hot.
An I right?

Churtz

The merc m62 has an electric clutch pulley. .. like an air con pulley. Just means they could switch it on and off. I believe merc don't have the charger running at cruise....just under accell. Stops it getting good too hot on a long motorway journey.

S18rra

Thanks, so you injected after sc. some say it's better to spray before so the 2 choices I have is in the induction hose just before tb and sc or straight into plenum after sc and before engine.

S18rra

So I couldn't resist and had to take apart my car just to see how it was setup.




Just after the tb but before the sc there's a small chamber so I could inject the water meth there. Some say that it doesn't work as well straight into the tb. I was thinking that I could possibly have a second jet in the plenum after the sc aswell, that should surely keep temps down.

S18rra

Small update!
I've decided to take the crazy step and start to upgrade my current setup. I've dismantled my current supercharger setup and purchased an eaton m64. I got it today so took it apart to check over it and started to offer it up in the car. I still need to buy an inlet plenum, intercooler, pipe work and a lot of custom work.
As you can see there's not much room at all and I'm already starting to think I've gone beyond my basic abilities.
I really don't know how I'm going to mount it to keep it secure.