Calling all Escort Cosworth owners with aircon!
25-05-2007, 07:58 AM
#1
Calling all Escort Cosworth owners with aircon!
I have had a funky new idea of how to fit an uprated intercooler to your car, whilst retaining the OE aircon, but need a volunteer to see if it is feesible.
You will need to be willing to take you car and leave it with the guys at Pro-Alloy (Haverhill in Suffolk), and the benefit to you will be a VERY preferential price, as well as the first to have this set-up.
Anyone interested?
You will need to be willing to take you car and leave it with the guys at Pro-Alloy (Haverhill in Suffolk), and the benefit to you will be a VERY preferential price, as well as the first to have this set-up.
Anyone interested?
25-05-2007, 08:55 AM
#2
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Hmmmm roof mounts are such as cool mod.
I have aircon, and standard intercooler. Do you know what the std one is capable of?
Also Radtec already do a Aircon specced RS500 style I/C for the Escort, but with a Rad too. Yours would need to be different and would it retain original rad?
I have aircon, and standard intercooler. Do you know what the std one is capable of?
Also Radtec already do a Aircon specced RS500 style I/C for the Escort, but with a Rad too. Yours would need to be different and would it retain original rad?
25-05-2007, 12:37 PM
#3
Originally Posted by cossymad
Hmmmm roof mounts are such as cool mod.
I have aircon, and standard intercooler. Do you know what the std one is capable of?
Also Radtec already do a Aircon specced RS500 style I/C for the Escort, but with a Rad too. Yours would need to be different and would it retain original rad?
I have aircon, and standard intercooler. Do you know what the std one is capable of?
Also Radtec already do a Aircon specced RS500 style I/C for the Escort, but with a Rad too. Yours would need to be different and would it retain original rad?
.
25-05-2007, 04:40 PM
#7
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Radman wrote are you going to mount a small rad each side behind the fog grilles? as thats already been done
NO
MarkN wrote Will this require any bodywork mods to the car?
Well maybe just the lights.
I know of mikes plan, he is mearly copying an idea I had in 2005- he is so out of touch. TBH it worked, but looked a little weird
NO
MarkN wrote Will this require any bodywork mods to the car?
Well maybe just the lights.
I know of mikes plan, he is mearly copying an idea I had in 2005- he is so out of touch. TBH it worked, but looked a little weird
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27-05-2007, 04:41 PM
#13
Originally Posted by MarkN
Will this require any bodywork mods to the car?
.We want a car with 350-400bhp, so that the improvements over the standard set-up can be monitored accurately, as the standard arrangement is fine for 300-350bhp (ST / LT)
.
28-05-2007, 04:44 PM
#15
Testing the future
i would be interested to hear about this. having worked for an a/c company for 11 years i would like to know what you plan to do.
i have several years experience testing a/c systems both in vehicles in a climatic wind tunnel, and the various components on test benches, so am well placed to advise you on your ideas
i have several years experience testing a/c systems both in vehicles in a climatic wind tunnel, and the various components on test benches, so am well placed to advise you on your ideas
25-06-2007, 05:47 PM
#20
Testing the future
Originally Posted by morty
Intercooler mate
Not sure how it was done, i bought my IC from Rapid Ford.
My mate fitted it and said the AC was still working and is to this day.
Not sure how it was done, i bought my IC from Rapid Ford.
My mate fitted it and said the AC was still working and is to this day.
not ideal for the a/c though, but you can probably get away with it for 95% of the time in this country
29-06-2007, 02:31 PM
#21
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Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Originally Posted by cossymad
Hmmmm roof mounts are such as cool mod.
I have aircon, and standard intercooler. Do you know what the std one is capable of?
Also Radtec already do a Aircon specced RS500 style I/C for the Escort, but with a Rad too. Yours would need to be different and would it retain original rad?
I have aircon, and standard intercooler. Do you know what the std one is capable of?
Also Radtec already do a Aircon specced RS500 style I/C for the Escort, but with a Rad too. Yours would need to be different and would it retain original rad?
. The reason the Air con condenser has to go on the front of the Intercooler is because the system is sealed and a increase of temp will increase the volume of the gas which will cause a issues with the condenser unit.
This is what ForeigneRS is hinting at I think.
It's not so much of a problem in cooler climates (i.e U.K
) but in a hotter enviroments it will suffer.Morty PM sent.
29-06-2007, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Dan,
I'm not disputing the fact that it has to go in front, just the fact that by doing so, it blocks off the airflow to the RS500 intercooler, so offers no improvement.
I'm not disputing the fact that it has to go in front, just the fact that by doing so, it blocks off the airflow to the RS500 intercooler, so offers no improvement.
The condenser goes in front of the cooler rad std setup and then you fit a rs500 size alloy intercooler which for arguments sake 3 times bigger than std cooler and put the condenser back on to the front in it orig position and your saying it offers no improvement?
spelling
29-06-2007, 04:06 PM
#25
Testing the future
Dan@Rapid-Ford glad you understand it
Mike Rainbird is also right in a way. on both cosworth variants AFAIK, the condenser is a similar height to the radiator and does not go in front of the intercooler (that is above both)
if you fit the condenser in front of an intercooler, depending on how hard the a/c system is working, the air going on to it could be significantly hotter than ambient which will obviously reduce it's efficiency (maybe back to the point of the original combined i/c and water cooled charge cooler on a LT escos )
depending on which is your priority, a/c performance and durability, or intercooler/engine performance you have to decide which goes in front of the other. better is to them as ford did, one on top of the other, but then we're back where we started
Mike Rainbird is also right in a way. on both cosworth variants AFAIK, the condenser is a similar height to the radiator and does not go in front of the intercooler (that is above both)
if you fit the condenser in front of an intercooler, depending on how hard the a/c system is working, the air going on to it could be significantly hotter than ambient which will obviously reduce it's efficiency (maybe back to the point of the original combined i/c and water cooled charge cooler on a LT escos
)depending on which is your priority, a/c performance and durability, or intercooler/engine performance you have to decide which goes in front of the other. better is to them as ford did, one on top of the other, but then we're back where we started
29-06-2007, 04:18 PM
#26
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foreigneRS took some research but got there
most people when "on it" wouldn't have the air con on as you can feel the power drop off when you turn it on and if the air con isn't on it wouldn't be generating the heat to transfer.
and the condenser rad is a high flow unit too.
spelling
most people when "on it" wouldn't have the air con on as you can feel the power drop off when you turn it on and if the air con isn't on it wouldn't be generating the heat to transfer.
and the condenser rad is a high flow unit too.
spelling
29-06-2007, 07:08 PM
#27
Please can we agree it's a condenser,not a condensor ffs!!!!!!! 
And the point about putting the intercooler in front of the CONDENSER is that if airflow across the condenser is reduced,then the head pressure will increase,and the compressor will be put under more load,thus sapping more power,and reducing system efficiency,until the head pressure reaches the point that the safety switch kicks in,then it's no cool air!
Same as reducing airflow across your radiator,temp goes up,engine says no!
And the point about putting the intercooler in front of the CONDENSER is that if airflow across the condenser is reduced,then the head pressure will increase,and the compressor will be put under more load,thus sapping more power,and reducing system efficiency,until the head pressure reaches the point that the safety switch kicks in,then it's no cool air!
Same as reducing airflow across your radiator,temp goes up,engine says no!
29-06-2007, 08:19 PM
#28
Testing the future
it's not the fact that the airflow is reduced, as it doesn't matter in which order they are stacked in, the airflow through the stack will be pretty much the same - it's the fact that the pressure will be increased by the temperature of the air onto the condenser from the intercooler
the answer would be to use a more modern compressor with variable displacement - these only work hard when you first need to cool the car down and when the engine is usually cold so you will not be ragging it and using the intercooler. after the interior has cooled, the displacement of the compressor reduces which reduces the mass flow of refrigerant around the circuit which reduces the head pressure and the work needed to be done by the airflow over the condenser
most ecu's will cut the a/c compressor at WOT anyway and when coolant temps are too hot - the question is, how much time is spent actually at WOT, and how much at quite a lot of throttle and boost and hence heat transfer from the intercooler? everything is a compromise and you have to choose what's best for you
the answer would be to use a more modern compressor with variable displacement - these only work hard when you first need to cool the car down and when the engine is usually cold so you will not be ragging it and using the intercooler. after the interior has cooled, the displacement of the compressor reduces which reduces the mass flow of refrigerant around the circuit which reduces the head pressure and the work needed to be done by the airflow over the condenser
most ecu's will cut the a/c compressor at WOT anyway and when coolant temps are too hot - the question is, how much time is spent actually at WOT, and how much at quite a lot of throttle and boost and hence heat transfer from the intercooler? everything is a compromise and you have to choose what's best for you
31-07-2007, 11:48 PM
#30
Originally Posted by foreigneRS
it's not the fact that the airflow is reduced, as it doesn't matter in which order they are stacked in, the airflow through the stack will be pretty much the same - it's the fact that the pressure will be increased by the temperature of the air onto the condenser from the intercooler
the answer would be to use a more modern compressor with variable displacement - these only work hard when you first need to cool the car down and when the engine is usually cold so you will not be ragging it and using the intercooler. after the interior has cooled, the displacement of the compressor reduces which reduces the mass flow of refrigerant around the circuit which reduces the head pressure and the work needed to be done by the airflow over the condenser
most ecu's will cut the a/c compressor at WOT anyway and when coolant temps are too hot - the question is, how much time is spent actually at WOT, and how much at quite a lot of throttle and boost and hence heat transfer from the intercooler? everything is a compromise and you have to choose what's best for you
the answer would be to use a more modern compressor with variable displacement - these only work hard when you first need to cool the car down and when the engine is usually cold so you will not be ragging it and using the intercooler. after the interior has cooled, the displacement of the compressor reduces which reduces the mass flow of refrigerant around the circuit which reduces the head pressure and the work needed to be done by the airflow over the condenser
most ecu's will cut the a/c compressor at WOT anyway and when coolant temps are too hot - the question is, how much time is spent actually at WOT, and how much at quite a lot of throttle and boost and hence heat transfer from the intercooler? everything is a compromise and you have to choose what's best for you
I am thinking from the point of view that putting the intercooler in front of the condenser will be similar to blocking the condenser in static commercial applications with the airborn debris that tends to collect on the condenser,thus reducing airflow,and therefore heat transfer.
Are these add on's really lined up so well that airflow through them is unaffected?
01-08-2007, 02:02 AM
#32
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The condenser is so small when compared to some modern cars. And from first hand experience, the aircon is just barely acceptable in hot cimate, it can really do with a larger condenser 
05-08-2007, 09:06 AM
#33
Testing the future
Originally Posted by BRIGSPORT
So we agree that a restriction on the condenser,be it air flow,or air temperature will increase head pressure then?
I am thinking from the point of view that putting the intercooler in front of the condenser will be similar to blocking the condenser in static commercial applications with the airborn debris that tends to collect on the condenser,thus reducing airflow,and therefore heat transfer.
I am thinking from the point of view that putting the intercooler in front of the condenser will be similar to blocking the condenser in static commercial applications with the airborn debris that tends to collect on the condenser,thus reducing airflow,and therefore heat transfer.
Originally Posted by BRIGSPORT
Are these add on's really lined up so well that airflow through them is unaffected?
Originally Posted by Arnie
The condenser is so small when compared to some modern cars. And from first hand experience, the aircon is just barely acceptable in hot cimate, it can really do with a larger condenser
are you speaking from experience from new? or nowadays with perhaps a low refrigerant charge, a dirty condenser, the correct refrigerant etc?
05-08-2007, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by foreigneRS
yes they are small compared to modern cars - but R12 systems were more efficient and needed less condensing capacity compared to R134a
are you speaking from experience from new? or nowadays with perhaps a low refrigerant charge, a dirty condenser, the correct refrigerant etc?
05-08-2007, 04:16 PM
#35
Testing the future
generally speaking, if you have an R12 system converted to R134a, then the performance will be worse 
CFC's were not used for no reason
not only because the condensing capacity needs to be higher with R134a, but also because the expansion device will not be optimised
some systems will cope better than others, i converted my subaru a couple of months ago and it works pretty well. but then japanese cars tend to have better a/c anyway as it is more important in the domestic market
CFC's were not used for no reason not only because the condensing capacity needs to be higher with R134a, but also because the expansion device will not be optimised
some systems will cope better than others, i converted my subaru a couple of months ago and it works pretty well. but then japanese cars tend to have better a/c anyway as it is more important in the domestic market
07-09-2007, 12:16 PM
#39
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I think you need to find a new donor car Mike as I might be in need of one of these funky new intercoolers
Here I was thinking that I could bolt my old Pro Alloy RS500 Spec Intercooler than I have on my Sapphire straight onto my Big Turbo Escort Cosworth. It has air con and after reading this I'm lead ot believe it won't be that simple
as I might be in need of one of these funky new intercoolers Here I was thinking that I could bolt my old Pro Alloy RS500 Spec Intercooler than I have on my Sapphire straight onto my Big Turbo Escort Cosworth. It has air con and after reading this I'm lead ot believe it won't be that simple