Has anybody found what the bhp limitations of the small turbo eec-iv system is?

My calculations put it around 325bhp mark. I've based this on the following;

The standard MAF sensor pegs out at 737.75 kg/hr of air, and assuming the engine was 100% efficient at 7000rpm then only 514.5 kg/hr of air would normally be consumed. This means that the standard ecu can calculate to 143.39 % volumetric efficiency. This ties in with the LOAD_SCALING_SEALEVEL_TABLE that shows the engine can achieve 144% VE at 4000rpm and above.

As the EEC-iv can only deal with VE's upto 200%, this means that if you swap the MAF sensor for one that measures upto 1029 kg/hr and program your chip to recognise this modification you could see power in the region of 325bhp based upon Pro-Flow MAF calibration information.

Any one have any other experience or thoughts?

 

I don't think there is any mapper who know EEC - IV and has time and will to do this kind of mods. :-(

 

Question of economics I suppose, there just aren't enough of the cars out there for a commercial enterprise to look at this kind of detail.

 

Yes, correct. Stu @MSD could do it but nobody can afford it for him to do it. And what is the point if for less money you can get Autronic/Motec/GEMS/Pectel?

 

Hi
Some EECIV-tuner in the web http://www.vanaaken.com/europe/protu...chiptuning.htm
http://tweecer.oplnk.net/viewforum.php?
f=2&sid=4f4929e1c38c13ea9f0e6348eb026f5b
http://www.moates.net/product_info.p...products_id=53
http://www.vems-group.org/wiki/index...ard%2FVerThree

http://pro-flow.com/tech%20info/sizing.htm
Mass air flow meter sizing is dependent upon horsepower need.

 

I know there are tuners who know EEC IV but I don't think there are any who know the programming used on EEC IV Cossie. It's probably very different to non-turbo models. I've been loking for some time if somebody could reprogram my car and nothing more than typical stage 1 convertions could be found. No offers of live mapping the car with let's say different turbo.

 

There used to be GEMS implant for EEC IV Escos but it was discontiniued and needed to use standard MAF ;-(

 

Please check this: http://www.moates.net/index.php?cPath=25
all tools+stuff over there

 

All tools for modding software, you still have to decode the software find which table is for what, how all this works and modify it.

 

just stick to the graham good conversion.it's 305 bhp and reliable. not that far off your estimate

 

He's already got many parts over it - T34 hybrid e.g.

 

what ecu did the rs 200 run was that a ecc 1v how different
was it and can you map that ?

 

The eec-iv code for the turbo cossie is very similar to all Fords of the same age. I've been working my way through it and you can see how alot of it is identical to mid 80's Mustangs. There's space in the injector timing table for 8 injectors for example! Most subroutines are the same it's just that the calibration tables go up to 140 and 160 % volumetric efficiency (for comparison a 2000cc Mondeo only goes up to 90%).

The biggest problem I found is all the OBD stuff takes up a fair whack of code and working out what does what is hard going.

Ford also have a 'one size fits all' approach to the code, routines for things like variable length intake manifolds and knock sensors are all there but just not used.

One day I may get it figured out...........

 

It's relaly interesting what you say. I wonder if you can do something usefull with it one day. I am mad I can't properly tune-up my car because of it. Do you think it would be possible to reprogram it not to use MAF sensor at all? MAF causes a lot of problems.

 

It would seem like a backward step to lose the MAF, it's the most accurate way of enabling the ecu to calculate load. The engine will still run without the MAF, the ecu falls back onto a speed density calculation based upon rpm, throttle position and map. I've not looked too closely at what else happens though, it may also use a less aggresive spark table and never open the amal valve.

 

Yet almost all heavily tuned turbo engines run this kind of MAP based ECUs. MAF's are restrictive and fragile.

 

MAF's don't tend to offer much restriction. Are you thinking tuning limits or to air passage? Pro Flow do a massive 117mm MAF good for 1500 bhp! Fragility is not so much of an issue now, many millons of cars are on the roads and don't suffer failures. It's more likely that people have got to learn how to manage the MAF approach.

 

It may be the case. Altough in turbo charged car there is several problem - air reversal, blow off valves, idling....

I haven't seen aftermarket MAF's ...not yet form what ou say - everything changes, but over here people are working often on getting rid of MAFs... hm :-/

 

Its the injectors that limit the bhp on the small turbos.

 

Even Stu@MSD sells bigger injectors for EEC IV (up to 400bhp)

 

Bigger injector's are no problem to buy, the eec just needs to know what size is there and a couple of other tables need adjusting e.g. the INJECTOR_OFFSET_TABLE which adjusts for varying battery voltage. The downside of bigger injectors is the emissions at idle.

Regarding problems with BOV, air reversal etc, a none recirculating BOV will cause problems as metered air is not going into the engine. I expect air reversal is catered for in the code. For example, there is a correction for fuel manifold wall wetting in the calculation of fuel pulsewidth and also a correction for the delay in manifold filling when the throttle is opened.

The idling calculation is very complicated and generally gives a better quality than speed density systems, maybe any idle problems are on modified cars where it's because the eec is so complicated something gets missed in the chip conversion.

But going back to my original query, I wonder how tuners are getting the results they are. Looking at Pro Flow's website again I see that for a flow 737. 17 kg/hr of air the estimated bhp is 233.3. As the standard MAF is shown in the code as topping out at 737.75 kg/hr in the MAF_TRANSFER_TABLE this would imply the eec wouldn't be able to accurately calculate the load. Either the MAF's are outputting voltages greater than 5 volts and the eec is still capable of reading this or the tuners are playing with the engine displacement value to lower the calculated load (pretty much guesswork without having a modified code to look at though).

More head scratching required!

 

Thats strange because everyone I spoke to said you cannot get larger injectors to fit a small turbo manifold? Maybe you can get them now.

 

Another list member has used injectors from a Saab turbo, 16ohm, size 390cc/min, on his small turbo Cossie. I don't know if he had to do any other mods though. Worst case scenario, take the manifold off, weld up old holes, weld in injector bungs, drill new holes, fabricate/modify new fuel rail.

 

You could be right mate but I was only answering your first question which was whats the limit of a small turbo set up and Id say its around 300bhp cos the injectors cant fire any more juice in.Ive not seen anyone else with a small turbo that has kept the ecu and put larger injectors into their car but it might be possible.

 

Actually I think the standard turbo is more of a problem





By the way there was a good point there i what sailorbob says - EEC is so compicated it is extremely hard to modify reliably!!! That is a problem.

 

Yeah if it was easy to crack the ecu and put big injectors and big turbo on then Im sure it would be done by now.

 

You are right about the standard injectors being about the limit for 300 bhp, but I think to achieve this the fuel pressure has to be upped otherwise at standard pressure you are limited to about 270 bhp.

I'm really trying to figure out what the limitations of the eec-iv system is, changing things like the MAF, injectors, MAP sensor, disabling EGR etc are all possible but somewhere along the line I suspect that the eec-iv won't be able to respond to any further mods.

Taking for example Azrael's post from farther up the thread, he said he couldn't find anyone to map for a different turbo. From what I've seen to date the eec-iv code doesn't know what turbo is there (or need to know), as long as the sensors can measure whats happening, the injectors are up to it and the calibration tables suit the extra air flow the eec-iv should cope fine. Who knows though, I may be wrong, but there are plenty of V8's stateside that have had turbos and superchargers fitted and they chip their eec's to alter the tables and get a useable daily driver with more power and torque than we could ever dream about.

 

From what Stu posted some time ago about EEC IV on Escort COssie it is unable to cope with rised volumetric efficency with bigger/more modern turbo. Wouldneed complete remap/reprogramming and nobodyhas enougth time and money - cheaper to fit stand-alone managment.

 

Hmmm, thanks, I'll have to dig around for that post.

This going back full loop to my original question regarding the EEC-iv only being able to deal with VE's upto 200%, the answer may be out there somewhere.