I know.

You said those days are long gone, but they haven’t.
It just depends where you go...

Cheers Paul

 

For me it has ..as I stick with my tuner .

 

The thing with getting it mapped on the road is the weather is never the same so how do they get round it? I’m assuming the dyno cell is set at an average yearly temperature but on the road no two days are the same? Just curious.

 

Being MSD?

If your happy that’s all that matters mate.

I’m just saying road mapping does still happen and plenty of really good tuners do it.

Cheers Paul

 

Rolling road map and tweak on road after if needed

 

Very few at all rr are temperature controlled at all and none that I know of.

Mark

 

Like I said I'm not too sure how and what happens as this will be the first car I've ever had mapped on a dyno .

 

i would thought the other way round would be better? road map as much as you can then check the heavy heavy loading 5th gear pulls on the RR.

cheers si

 

What I’ve always wondered is how the tuners get away with mapping a high powered car on the road, to run a 500 hp car to its limits they must get a fair amount of speed on, surely they’re risking their licenses and even the customers car doing it that way.

 

Don't quote me as I may be wrong ..but i think they do go fast but not as fast as you would think ..i think my AP's on my 400+ 3dr took a right hammering from being on the brakes and letting the boost build up to full load on the road .

 

To some extent yes they probably do but it’s still the best way to do it which is why some do it that way and won’t touch dyno mapping.

If it’s gotta be spot on it has to be done in real world situations.

In a lot of ways dyno mapping is a lot easier for the tuner so I can see why some do it that way also

Cheers Paul

 

I had a waste of space tuner refuse to map my car due too what he said were dangerous tyres, had passed an mot no problem, yet its 500hp and was going to map it on the road which is dangerous on its own no matter how good the car or tyres are.

 

Private roads lads fucksake in all my years in the car scene ive never seen people with tuned cars implying tuners are law breakers doing their job get a grip whats next ring the plod

 

My staff has never been on the rollers since I've had it. But the when it went away to get mapped it came back a totally different car.

 

A long time ago after I had my engine re-built and had run it in on the road the guy that did it came out with his laptop and a boost gauge and fine tuned it on the road. An "interesting" drive!! More recently it was all done at MSD on the rollers.

 

In an ideal world you would dyno test and map an engine before it is fitted in any vehicle then once fitted the map adjusted by driving.
Mapping on the road is very dangerous and difficult as with most modified cars will probably be capable of twice the maximum speed limit in only a few seconds.
The only way to do 'road' mapping safely is to rent somewhere like Bruntingthorpe or North Weald where full throttle high speed mapping can be done, even then the car must be checked to ensure it is safe to be driven at high speed.
The down side to this is the cost which can run to thousands not hundreds

Steve

 

It’s not always an ideal world, hence people do what they need to do...

Cheers Paul

 

Tbh most descent tuners will have a very good map to load in from the start if they have used same Ecu,s an software engine spec etc,but best way I’ve found over the years is on the Dyno,then some road mapping ,but it’s time consuming so most will just use a dyno
If you’ve got data logging facility on Ecu even better to get it just about spot on

 

I can remember Ahmed live mapping my car and asking ian Howell how do they get around speeding etc and ian just said they hammer it until it's mapped. He told me on the way down to pick it up that Ahmed was very anal about things being right and if he says to me that's a cracking engine or car you've done alrite lol. Walked in and shook the mans hand and he states that's a little fire cracker that is , needless to say the drive home was quality even on low boost as he told me to run it in for a 1000 miles . 1000 miles in a week lol and high boost and that was it smiling from ear to ear.
Mat have you thought about engine dyno for your engine before it goes into the car.

Cheers paul

 

He built and live mapped mine i ran it in on a 1200 drive straight up to the north coast and back to ahmed car never missed a beat and was hammerd for years i think its still going now some laughs with ahmed n mark they were a right double act sadly missed

 

Engines not going on a engine dyno ..its been fitted then it's off for manifolds made with it in situe then off for manangement and then run in and mapping at MSD

 

Looking foward to seeing it on the rollers mate

 

At least if it’s mapped on the rollers you’ll get a power figure too

Cheers Paul

 

Thanks chaps im sure it will be fine for a little rs turbo.

 

My car was live mapped on the road with Mark in the passenger seat and his buddy driving it and then they ran it on the rollers.

 

I know of a few but none of us are ever going to get access to them.

 

Purely and simply much safer and easier to replicate real road on the dyno than take the risk.

The temp in a good cell can almost be what you want it to be. If you have awesome cooling and air changes in the room then temps can be too cold (if that's your thing) or reduce the cooling ability to get the cell to the temp you want.

The added bonus to the dyno is that you can see/listen to the engine while the car is doing silly speeds, try that on the road lol

 

Endless debate this one!
And there is a lot of missunderstanding of dynos and how they operate.

The biggest difference between a tarmac and steel "road" is the way the load is controlled.

On Tarmac, the load is controlled by the gear seleceted, the weight of the vehicle and the incline, with varying wind resistance added by speed.

On a dyno, the load is controlled by the retarders (Assuming its a proper load capable dyno and not a crappy inertia dyno.)

Now the load on a dyno is variable by the operator, in fact we can stop dead (stall) about 600BHP per axle if we can keep traction but the key to remember is its usually a fixed figure for a POWER RUN. IE: Dyno Dynamics Shoot 44's flywheel power run has a load ramp rate setting fixed at 100 that we cant change.
What that means is the dyno will "allow" the wheel to accelerate at a controlled rate of 10.0 KPH, per second and vary its load accordingly to achieve that acceleration rate.

So, "if" the dyno run is set to start at 20 KPH and end at 100 KPH, the run will take 8 seconds at 10Kph/ps. So... "if" your vehicle takes 8 seconds to run from 20 KPH to 100 KPH on the tarmac in the same gear, then that run is of a pretty identical load. You are at wide open throttle for exactly the same length of time.

If the load selected is too small, especially on a turbocharged engine, we can have boost spool and peak issue, where the engine runs more boost on the road than it did the dyno and maskes it sooner too. The key is to select a load that mimics the conditions that power level will achieve on the road.
Remember, a 250bhp car will take a LOT longer to do that run than a 1000bhp car.

But its absolutely fine to exceeed the "real" vehicles time and load. If we tell the dyno we want a ramp rate of only 5KPH per second, then thats like the above vehicle accelerating up a hill... its target speed will take twice as long, so lots more load is applied to the engine, the turbo has longer to spool and much more heat is generated.
Its a real test, as on the road we do of course have hills, and pull trailers, and carry more weight.


For running in:
When running a new engine in, we use the Dyno Dynamics excellent scripts system.
I have written a script that varies load with time. So the operator just drives the vehicle and follows instructions on screen. It raises load, allowed rpm, drops load, asks the operator to change gear etc. This is to ensure the operator cant sit at 70mph with a fixed engine speed. We then have some race track simulations that simulate race tracks, indicating gear shigts and what throttle to use, adjusting load for hills etc. It all works very well.


The Future:
Dyno Dynamics have now gone a step further.
So far there is only us with this feature as we are Europes Beta Tester for the platform, but we now have "Road Mode" and have had it about 12 months in various iterations.
We now always input the vehicles weight, and if necessary add a trailor weight etc, or a caravan. The dyno works out the rolling resiatance for any given incline and it simulates the tarmac load for that weight vehicle, increasing the load for wind resistance with road speed etc. We just have a dial to vary the size of the hill. It works a treat.


Summary:
As you guys WELL know, we have spent many many years live mapping on the road and runways and love it...we earnt the money to build our dyno cell from live mapping on the road and have nothing bad to say about it, bar that its very very hard to access all map areas on the road when big speed and corners are also involved. Professionals can do it, and can do it well. Indeed folk like Sheady have to hook up a trailor just to carry their balls along for the journey... but i dont miss it one bit as mine seem to be shrinking with age.

A final test drive on the road after dyno mapping is fine for me nowadays... but then i built cell to replicate the road as best I could afford.
Some dyno cells out there are nowhere near as good as mapping on the road. Bear that in mind... even a good dyno is only as good as its cell abnd its cooling systems. Any cell where you can smell, or even measure hydrocarbons is out for the final calibrations guys...You can build the map on them no bother, but flat out, engines need clean air and LOTS of it.

A video to visualise the loaded run.
Watch the speed on the dyno run and you will see how the dyno is controlling the engines acceleration.
Also note how repeatable the runs on a good dyno are. Thats about the cooling as a rule.



My build blog if your bored:
http://www.motorsport-developments.c...Blackpool.html

 

Awesome Stu im looking forward to it mate .

 

I have been once before Stu and will be coming back again. You have a great set-up there and the tea was also nice!!

 

Thanks.

 

It's all about the brews

 

Yep good tea at msd

 

What did she make mat?

 

Tea with one sugar

 

 

Stu does you fan blow sufficient air,what I mean is does it rise with speed or is it set at a constant flow,just curious if it configured with mph rise to fan speed,also looking at your cell it looks temp controlled ?

 

Hello,
Its not temperature controlled but it is pressure controlled with a fan speed balancer so it remains the same pressure as outside. I wish it was temperature controlled this time of year. The wind chill factor of a 60 mph wind all day is offensive. Its a cold place to work, but in summer its awesome. I wish we had shorter winetrs and longer summers. LOL

I have never seen the point in adjusting the cooling fans based on road speed anywhere other than a wind tunnel. For cooling it makes little difference as you very quickly reach the saturation point where the radiators cant really exchange anymore heat. With our very focused airflow we create an excellent pressure ahead of the heat exchangers so they work extremely well. Remember, we bring in air ported directly from outside. This is NOT recycled cell air. Its outside air, hydrocarbon free and at a strong pressure. Radial fans can only dream of creating the pressure this big fan does.






Once the heat has been removed from the heat exchangers and pumped out into the dyno cell, we need to get it out of the cell before it enters the engines air intake. Thats where most dyno cells fail. They just heat the room up ina cyclic fashion. We get it out of the cell quickly with this one: (My wifes first modelling job)










The only potential problem we hit with our 60 - 70mph front fan wind speed is if the vehicles thermostats dont work properly we can overcool the engine easily.
But the same happens on the road for that car anyway. A least we can turn the fans down.

The key to cell cooling is cell turnover. A huge cell would need much more airflow. Mine was designed from the ground up to this size in order to match the cooling I could afford to install. Via the single forced air input, the input balancers and the twin forced extraction routes the cell air here is exchanged a minimum of 600 times per hour.
For a cell twice the size, we would need twice the fans.

 

Truly awesome work to make that dyno ..i love the build thread .

 

It looks like you’ve made the most of what you have Stu ,and looks fairly efficient ,I know exactly what your saying with some dyno cells ,seen varying sights over the years lol